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HFSJ Hype or real?

Sirisha Reddy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 09, 2003
Posts: 75
Guys

I heard a lot of good things abt this book. I bought one and it is definitly not for me. Very hard to read and remember for someone who used to regular textbooks which are filled with less/no distractions (extreneuos diagrams / photos/ pointers/jokes etc.)

It is just me? or is there anyone out there on this small planet who share my views.

Siri.


SCJP 1.4
chowdary Thammineedi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Posts: 126
What Kind Of Books Do You Like?

Read em. And get what you need. But then, while you are slogging at it you could be overtaken.

Ask another person to choose a HF book and off you go WITH YOUR book. Let's see who learns how much, how fast and how effficiently.

DARE or BARE?
Todd Farmer
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 28, 2004
Posts: 59
I'm no expert, but I think that people remember stuff that they react to (good or bad). A bland list of facts or APIs to memorize are fine if that's the way your brain works, but most people (OK, at least me) don't work that way. I admit that there are parts of the presentation that I don't care for, and other parts that I really like. Ultimately, though, I remember the content much better because of the context. And that's because I had a reaction to it (mostly good, but occasionally bad). And when it boils down to it, that's why I bought the book.

If it doesn't work for you, that's cool. It was the only book I used in preparation for the exam, and I passed. I also used Kathy & Bert's SCJP prep book. Obviously, I find the HF books tremendously effective.

Cheers!
Amit Saini
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 20, 2004
Posts: 280
I personally feel that regular text books are so damn boring. Its an overkill for my eyes to read line after line after line.
THe first time I opened HF series I was plain shocked to see a book like that. Not only was it fun to read, but was pretty comprehensive too.

Let me give you an example. For my EJB class, I used HF-EJB instead of Ed Roman's book (considered by many to be the most authoritative book). My fundamental understanding of EJB's was much higher than most people in the class. True, that Ed ROman covered more advanced topics, but it was the HF book that cleared my basic fundamentals.

HFSJ is my fourth HF book and the only one I am using to prepare for WCD.

But you're right in the end, its definitely a personal taste. Having said that, you're the first person I've known who hasn't liked the HF series.

There are couple good books on JSP/Servlets by Oreilly, you can try using those as well.

Good luck with the exam. No matter which book you choose, as long as you're trying out the code samples by yourself, all should be fine!

Amit
david carrasco
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 25, 2004
Posts: 17
Hi guys

I have read the HF books and think that there are the kind of book happy, where you can learn better.
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982
I would say in this way, you might use HFS&J to get the overall pictures, and then use SCWCD Exam Study Kit 2nd edition to understand each topic in detail.

I read both and I believe that HFS&J is really good for beginner because it is less bored. If you start with a formal book without enough knowledge, you will find the studying be very painful.

Just like I am telling you to start with reading the specifications of Servlets 2.4, JSP 2.0 and JSTL 1.1. You will definitely tell me this is crazy.

Nick


SCJP 1.2, OCP 9i DBA, SCWCD 1.3, SCJP 1.4 (SAI), SCJD 1.4, SCWCD 1.4 (Beta), ICED (IBM 287, IBM 484, IBM 486), SCMAD 1.0 (Beta), SCBCD 1.3, ICSD (IBM 288), ICDBA (IBM 700, IBM 701), SCDJWS, ICSD (IBM 348), OCP 10g DBA (Beta), SCJP 5.0 (Beta), SCJA 1.0 (Beta), MCP(70-270), SCBCD 5.0 (Beta), SCJP 6.0, SCEA for JEE5 (in progress)
Syed Shahul Hameed Abdul Majeed
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 09, 2005
Posts: 2
This book is the best book i have ever read and it gives a new comer the best possible way to understand the topics.
Darya Akbari
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Posts: 1855
Hi Sirisha,

you are not alone , so don't become afraid of yourself . HF books best fit to my brain, however I know that this is definitly not the case for everyone.

I have a colleague who is a really good developer and I've shown him some of the HF books. Honestly I was astonished that he categorically denied the HF style.

I came to the following conclusion. This colleague is the best and fastest algorithm programmer I know. No one at our company can follow his explanations. This guy always like the complicated way and really can't do anything with the HF approach.

Using him in a one-man-show (project) is the best that can happen to him. He is one of those who like doing things in his own way. He is definitly not a team guy and the worst thing you can do on him is to put him into a team. Worst for himself and worst for any other in the team.

The HF style is laid out for team players not for the lonesome riders. You are taught a well understandable form and I belive that one is expected to behave in the same manner inside a team, open minded and not fearing others can steel one's ideas.

Regards,
Darya


SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD
Ice Penov
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 19, 2005
Posts: 70
Hey Sirisha,

I wanna give my point of view.

I have the book for about a week or so. I read some of it and I returned back to Core Servlets and JSP by Marty Hall. Now this is what I call good book. Pragmatic and practical approach, full with real-life examples. I used Core Java as a preparation book for SCJP, then used Programmers Guide to Java Certification as a reference for the exam. The result was, not I just passed the exam with ease, I got a deep introduction to J2SE. I'm not learning to pass the exam, i'm learning to learn. Certifications are just a guidelines for me at this point.

About the HF-style: I think that if you need pictures and jokes in order to motivate you to learn Java, I think that you're in trouble. What afterwards, after passing the exam? You'll encounter a new technology that you'll need to learn, but there is no book with pictures and styles, just plain "boring" book, with just text? Why don't keep yourself motivated by altering the code samples from the book to do something more. Or is that also boring?

I mean, the approach of the authors of the HF-series is OK. But man, you should find your own efficient way of putting info in your brain. I'm using tons of tools while i'm learning just to link things in my memory. But, preinserted pictures on my pages with half-page text, is too much for me. It simply irritates me. I don't know, maybe I was trained this way. Probably.

So, see, Siritha, you're not alone. We are probably minority, but we are "platform independent"(we'll learn, pics or no pics). Just like Java is.


Cheers,
Ice


In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.
chowdary Thammineedi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Posts: 126
Nice one ICE.
Bert Bates
author
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 14, 2002
Posts: 8815
    
    5
Wow -

Interesting thread

I totally agree that HF is not everyone's style... the only thing I feel compelled to answer is the idea that the goal of a HF book is to motivate... I guess I don't think that that's true. Our goal is to create the best learning experiences that we can (and of course our degree of success is highly debatable!). We say in the beginning of every book that the reader is going to have to participate, do the exercises, and so on - our goal isn't to provide motivation ... that's the reader's job.

HTH,

Bert


Spot false dilemmas now, ask me how!
(If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much room.)
Naresh Chaurasia
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 356
Hi,
can some pls tell when i can find online verson of jakarta struts by chuck cavanes along with source code.

thnx is advance


SCJP 1.4, SCWCD1.4, OCA(1Z0-007)
Naresh Chaurasia
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 356
Hi ranchers,
pls ignore the last message .By mistake i have posted it on wrong forum.
Sirisha Reddy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 09, 2003
Posts: 75
Interesting thought from akbari.. saying if you do not like HF series you are not a team player.. !?!
kids brains understand n interperet pics much better.. throwing in a pic of pam anderson in a physics txtbook will make it more interesing for em for sure, though pam and physics have nothing in common than letter p : )

levity aside, i think some ppl just want to dive in to the crux than wander around the bushes.

Bert, I appreciate your presence and honest response. Remember, I am a buyer too .. : )

Siri.
[ July 11, 2005: Message edited by: Sirisha Reddy ]
Todd Farmer
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 28, 2004
Posts: 59
Originally posted by Sirisha Reddy:
throwing in a pic of pam anderson in a physics txtbook will make it more interesing for em for sure


Here's hoping that Bert takes note! More pictures of Pamela Anderson in future HF books, please!
sergio mendez-rueda
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 12, 2005
Posts: 37
Originally posted by Sirisha Reddy:
Guys

I heard a lot of good things abt this book. I bought one and it is definitly not for me. Very hard to read and remember for someone who used to regular textbooks which are filled with less/no distractions (extreneuos diagrams / photos/ pointers/jokes etc.)

It is just me? or is there anyone out there on this small planet who share my views.

Siri.

HI Siri,
What is your problem?
you bought a Book with one error pro three/2 pages!!!
what do you want??
(I think: you don't like f*** errors)
cheers
P.S.
Quote: Note to parents and puritans ...that the starts with f,
followed by ... is not what
you think.... It's funny,
by Basham, Sierra, Bates, HFSJ, first edition , a lot of errors(239)"
Darya Akbari
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Posts: 1855
Hi Sirisha,

you have much to learn grasshopper . The point is about Metacognition . If you have HFSJ as it seems to me then read the pages about Metacognition.

By the way I have a 6 years old girl and yeah it makes fun to learn with her in the metacognitive way ? Is there anything wrong with that ?

If you like I underline my statement concerning team players .

Regards,
Darya
[ July 12, 2005: Message edited by: Darya Akbari ]
shiva viswanathan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 12, 2004
Posts: 152
HI Sergio ,

This is a forum which is supposed be a friendly place

So request you not to indulge in personal attacks and spoil the friendly
atmosphere

As you know each one is allowed to express his/her opinion regardless
of whether it is right or wrong . Sirisha was just expressing his opinion on the book

I dont think it was necessary to get all nasty like that

Hope you appreciate the point


Catch You Later
Shiva
trivikram Kumar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 21, 2005
Posts: 172
Hi,

I personally feel that HF series is the ULTIMATE.
I do not have prior knowledge in JAVA.
These books really helped me to gain knowledge.
Hats off to Kathy ,BertBates and others for their great effort.


Javainn<br /> <br />SCJP,SCWCD,SCBCD,<br />ICED (IBM-287,IBM-484,IBM-486)
IBM certified in DB2 V 8.1 Family Fundamentals (IBM 700)
Bert Bates
author
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 14, 2002
Posts: 8815
    
    5
Well I'm certainly not taking any offense - it seems the opinions expressed have been fair and calm. Our goal is to figure out the best way to create learning experiences (I know that sounds like marketing talk , but it's really how we think about this stuff).
These books are just our first attempt at put a lot of learning theory and live teaching experience down on paper... we fully expect our books to evolve (and, we hope, to improve). We pay a lot of attention to the feedback we get, so this kind of discussion is most welcome, at least from our perspective.

Thanks,

Bert
Darya Akbari
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Posts: 1855
Hi Bert,

I'm the last one who has a problem with it, that others do not like the HF style. I told you about my colleague whom I like very much and whose opinion I fully accept. And the last thing I would do is to try to convince him.

Maybe this ominous 80/20 rule also fit to the HF books. 80% like the style and 20% do not. So what?

The style is the first try in this direction to combine psychology with technology. If you look to our kindergarten and schools then you find that our teaching professionals also use the same techniques. They have studied the whole thing.

Now the main part of technical writers in our sector never did this study and really don't know how to teach or to write in a true educational style. They all do it their own way. Unfortunately creating more or less boring texts.

Bert, you and Kathy are going a new road (back to the roots, kindergarten and school). You are moving from a 2-dimensional world to a mutlidemensional world and you deliver lots of different views on the same topic which is always good. If one say you do it only for the hype then it doesn't fit because there was no hype prior to your HF books .

I can think of an additional dimension and that would be: color

Regards,
Darya
Ice Penov
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 19, 2005
Posts: 70
HI all,

nodoby here is taking offense at the HSF-style. I just wanted with my post to point that THERE IS alternative to this book, which covers the J2EE technology. The more the books, the better.

Every individual repsonds differently to what we see. We all have an "learning algorithm". I have spent many years just to learn to learn.

So, Bert , go on with your revolutionary approach, anything which is different from the rest I fully support. The question: will it work for everyone--is an individual one.

Another great book, you may it consider an alternative--is the Core Servlets & JSP by Marty Hall. Every topic is finished with real-time examples( online-store, bank account system, debugging server...). You might appreciate this more, that just gaining knowledge and passing the exam.

Everyone is different with different strategies. I'm still in college, so right now I wanna gain practical knowledge rather than get a certificate. You choose what do you want.

About the "lonely rider" theory: I am a living proof that denies that theory. I have tried all my life to balance extremes--Work different, but respoct every one's oppinion. Quote from a Macedonian i'm very proud of:

"The balance between Emotional quotient(EQ) and IQ is CRUCIAL"- Mike Zafirofski(One of the head guys in Motorola)

With Respect,
Ice
Darya Akbari
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Posts: 1855
Hi Ice,

sorry but for me you are not a proof against my theory. Why? I tell you .

You say you are still in college. Maybe you don't know how tough it is there out in the wild (business world). You are always under enormous pressure to deliver on time and in budget. If you can not deliver you don't survive.

Now we all like not only to survive but also to be ahead and in full control of our schedule to be on the safe side.

Hence we need some methodologies to make us as best fit for the job than possible.

I also did say that 80% like the HF style and 20% do not. Whether it's really 80/20 is not so important. At least the weighting is in the right direction

Of course people are not feeling the same and thanks god they do not.

Bert, I doubt it's worth the effort to reach the outstanding 20% of people who can't do anything with the HF style. You have to accept it.

That's not saying anything against the 20% peoples. I fully respect their opinions and would also share their book references. Maybe I like their references and maybe not.

Regards,
Darya
Hon Gildon
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 08, 2005
Posts: 11
Hi Kathy & Bert,
How about making some more chapters additionally to 10 in pdf format?
It would be really fantastic. Or even better idea: to make whole book in plain text, without pictures, etc. Yes the book will loose a lot, but it will not influence on selling of paper one and it will be possible to read it from pda. Also some people can not get the paper HFSJ for many reasons. And it would be a great benefit for such people.
what do you think?
Ice Penov
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 19, 2005
Posts: 70
Hey Darya,

you're right from your point of view. Let us walk our paths, shall we? I hate replying without need, but I was named.


With respect to everyone,
Ice
Garrett Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 27, 2002
Posts: 401
Originally posted by Darya Akbari:
Hi Sirisha,

you are not alone , so don't become afraid of yourself . HF books best fit to my brain, however I know that this is definitly not the case for everyone.

I have a colleague who is a really good developer and I've shown him some of the HF books. Honestly I was astonished that he categorically denied the HF style.

I came to the following conclusion. This colleague is the best and fastest algorithm programmer I know. No one at our company can follow his explanations. This guy always like the complicated way and really can't do anything with the HF approach.

Using him in a one-man-show (project) is the best that can happen to him. He is one of those who like doing things in his own way. He is definitly not a team guy and the worst thing you can do on him is to put him into a team. Worst for himself and worst for any other in the team.

The HF style is laid out for team players not for the lonesome riders. You are taught a well understandable form and I belive that one is expected to behave in the same manner inside a team, open minded and not fearing others can steel one's ideas.

Regards,
Darya


Dude, your argument is incredibly weak. Here it is:

1. My colleague didn't like HF.
2. My colleague is not a team player
3. HF is not for team players.


Lets continue with these dumb arguments:

1. I suck at math
2. I am straight
3. Straight men suck at math

So you see, we have a one case example, which is not even decent to prove even a distant association, and you've taken that as evidence for proof.

So back to the usefulness HF books...

They can be annoying to me at times, they are not a great reference, they do seem to keep me thinking, they don't have enough practical examples.


comp.lang.javascript FAQ: http://jibbering.com/faq/
Darya Akbari
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Posts: 1855
Garrett,

3. HF is for team players

Did you really read HF books . I wonder that you didn't see the tons of practical examples.

Regards,
Darya
Bert Bates
author
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 14, 2002
Posts: 8815
    
    5
good stuff!... I'm still reading...

Actually, one thing I'd like to add. Usually, we prefer that our books have a single focus, but this time we thought we could do certification and a beginner's guide, all in one book. The exam is so broad that before we knew it, we had almost 900 pages!

I think that servlets is a REALLY BIG topic, and I don't think you can go from beginner to advanced, covering all of servlets and jsps in one book (unless it was a very heavy book ).

So, again, I'd say, if you're looking for an advanced book on servlets, hfs is probably not your best choice, our target was Java programmers who are relatively new to servlets.

HTH,

Bert
[ July 17, 2005: Message edited by: Bert Bates ]
Paul Bourdeaux
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 24, 2004
Posts: 783
Dude, your argument is incredibly weak ...
Lets continue with these dumb arguments:

While the argument is neither dumb nor weak, I agree with your analysis. Determining causation by association does not work. Just because one person, who was not a team player, didn't like HFSJ doesn't mean that this applies to everybody who would rather work alone. I do think, however, that the book is obviously aimed at a team atmosphere, especially when you look at the way the different roles are divided up.

Personally, I rather enjoyed all of the HF books (and yes, I own one of each!). I am not a beginner in Java, nor do I require pictures to learn. To quote a previous poster, I am "platform independent" too (I also learn, pics or no pics)."

It may be because I have a background in psychology as well as computer science, but I appreciate the approach to learning that has made the HF series so wildly successful. It isn't for everyone though.


“Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.” - Rich Cook
raja vishnu murthy
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Posts: 17
go through hfsj its more than enough
Hon Gildon
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 08, 2005
Posts: 11
I'll try to pass this exam without HFSJ and tell you the score asap. I do believe it is quite possible without this book. Main materials: Hanumant Deshmukh kit, Mikalai Zaikin notes and some exam simulators
sergio mendez-rueda
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 12, 2005
Posts: 37
Originally posted by Sirisha Reddy:


It is just me? or is there anyone out there on this small planet who share my views.

Describe HFSJ by basham/Sierra/Bates in 7 words:
==> CLEAR and wrong, than FOGGY and right <==

--------------------
this time, like all times is a great time as long as
we read the right books
(R. W. Emerson pharaphrased)
Bert Bates
author
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 14, 2002
Posts: 8815
    
    5
Well, we'll certainly go back to the drawing board on some of this stuff, but I'd like to ask a question...

Did anyone 'get' that a lot of the 'team related' stuff in the book has to do with how Sun imagines large web apps being staffed? It's not so much that we're saying Rah-Rah let's everyone do it the way Sun recommends... it's just that in the J2EE arena, the certifications do, to varying degrees, test you on at least understanding Sun's recommendations for things like team makeup...

So I'm guessing from this thread that that idea didn't come through too well... is that right?

Thanks,

Bert
Ice Penov
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 19, 2005
Posts: 70
hi guys,

i don't thing that this thread should exist anymore. I think that the thread entered "saturation mode"(if anyone can understand me ).

Both sides shared their opinions and they were constructive and pretty good.

BTW, I don't mind the team spirit of the book, it is pretty ok. The pics and styles bother me, personally. Let me put it this way--the book style don't go well with my style.

Regards to everyone,
Ice
chowdary Thammineedi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Posts: 126
Originally posted by Bert Bates:
Well, we'll certainly go back to the drawing board on some of this stuff, but I'd like to ask a question...

Did anyone 'get' that a lot of the 'team related' stuff in the book has to do with how Sun imagines large web apps being staffed? It's not so much that we're saying Rah-Rah let's everyone do it the way Sun recommends... it's just that in the J2EE arena, the certifications do, to varying degrees, test you on at least understanding Sun's recommendations for things like team makeup...

So I'm guessing from this thread that that idea didn't come through too well... is that right?

Thanks,

Bert



Either way it does not matter. In my opinion, those who choose Head First books are almost always entirely from one single group, Freshers("Those People") just out of college or who will shortly be graduating. Most of the time it is people trying to LEARN how a technology works and NOT, I emphasize NOT trying to RIG up a school project with someone else's code.

Other People (I mean those who have Industry EXPERIENCE) would find it SHAMEFUL (and rightly so) for reading a book with lots and lots of pictures in the presence of others.(I mean your colleagues, seniors, team leads, managers etc..)

These guys would definitely stay away or criticize (or play down) the Head First books. I ASSUME they hate the books for imparting knowledge to any and every layman, while making it impossible for them to learn. Tough Luck! Indeed.

"Team Environment" and following the guidelines of SUN are OVERRIDDEN (with POWER and ENVY) in the real world.

Welcome SNOW! (What helps you to learn is not Good Enough! If you try to learn, what I'm good at, you'll have to face my wrath) to the real World.

This isn't the time to close this thread. Lets conclude what kind of books everyone likes. (I'm naming no one here. Take Note, x HOT)
[ July 22, 2005: Message edited by: chowdary Thammineedi ]
Deepa Korecherla
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 14, 2004
Posts: 197
woohhooo...its a very BIGgggg thread........
well IMO,--- Hanumant Deshmukh book is good for SCWCD
---- HFEJB for SCBCD.
For me it all depends on the subject u r reading. SCWCD consists less theory and more to see & remember (configurstions, dd, el, tags etc)
SCBCD consists of more theory, for which HFEJB is the best to get an idea about what is what with the pics, roles ...in the book.
my vote 50-50.


DKR<br />SCJP1.2,SCWCD1.4,SCBCD1.3,SCJA
nagaraj reddy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 21, 2005
Posts: 43
Hi..


Its a very good conversation on teaching Technique.


Any Way I can say that The way K&B fallowing is VERY GOOD for passing the Sun Certification Exams.

The way they prepared the book is Nice.
Selva Prasad Rajendran
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 07, 2004
Posts: 38
Hi everybody..........

That was a preety cool discussion. personally i feel HFSJ is good for beginer who start with servlets very new. The style and approach of the authors is different. But eveyone wont like the same style. People can go with their own style.

I am a fan of K&B and i feel very comfortable with their style

selva

scjp 1.4
ashok kumar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 30
hi guys,
I am new to J2ee technologies.I first read Mastering EJB .I didn't understand anything and I am afraid about EJB.I thought it involves lot of things and I cant read those thing of my own.But I found HFEJB that's very simple I become the fan of that book.It is not boring it is like a story book which is telling some thing about technologies.But I think it is lack of example.Any way
My Hearts of thank to Bert and Sierra who gave such an excellent book to the Java World

[ July 21, 2005: Message edited by: ashok kumar ]
[ July 21, 2005: Message edited by: ashok kumar ]
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: HFSJ Hype or real?