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Disappointed by SCWCD and Sun

Timotius Pamungkas
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 28
Hi all,

I've just passed my SCWCD this morning (84%), but quite dissapointed.
I was prepared my SCWCD exam for about 2.5 months: read study guides, creating snippets, and of course mock exams.

One thing that makes me disappointed is a [particular mock exam]. I've downloaded [this mock] exam, and read it once or twice. But when working on my exam, I realized that some exam questions (quite a lot actually) are very similiar with that mock exam (or maybe even exactly same).

Okay, I found myself passed the exam, but studying from that [mock exam] seems like peeping a cheatsheet. Comment about [this] mock exam seems right -learn it for 12 hours and you'll pass your exam-. Someone doesn't have to develop JSP/servlet for months, reading that manning study guide, or create a lot of snippets to pass the exam. Download that [mock exam] (it's free anyway), read it for three days, and pass the exam.

Come on Sun...
You've created JSP, JAXP, EJB, and all those Js, but you can't create a database for exam. Say, 1000 questions, 70 of which taken randomly for candidate's exam... How difficult it is for Sun? I think even a non Java developer might pass SCWCD if they have that mock exam and good memory. From that 80-pages-and-about-120-questions-mock-exam, a person can pass SCWCD.

The (more) funny thing is : my mock exam was released on 2005. So I assume in two years, no changes for SCWCD question??

One more thing...
About that free retake exam... Hey, this is developer's exam, not chocolate for christmas. Sun offer's for that retake exam -at least for me- seems like Sun said, "Come on developers, take your exam, and do not worry if you fail cause you'll have another FREE chance. So come on and do a trial... You fail on trial, at least you know what is Sun's exam looks like, so find another month and re-take it FREE".
Come on Sun...
If you really want to help us saves our money, give us 50% discount on our second attempt, but don't offer that free retake exam as if you exam is a worthless thing...

Regards,
Timotius Pamungkas

SCJP 1.4, SCWCD 1.4, towards OCA
[ May 26, 2007: Message edited by: Marilyn de Queiroz ]
Roseanne Zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 14, 2000
Posts: 1953
It is Sun's problem, NOT Timotius Pamungkas' problem.

Certification tests are business, both for money and market shares. Sun and almost everyone else are doing the same, and NOT really care about the possible cheatings.

It is market economy any way!!!
[ May 26, 2007: Message edited by: Roseanne Zhang ]
Ulf Dittmer
Marshal

Joined: Mar 22, 2005
Posts: 42612
    
  65
You don't want to punish somebody for telling the truth!

Indeed not. I'd like to see them punished for cheating on an exam, and thus devaluing the certifications of all honest exam takers.

It is Sun's problem, NOT Timotius Pamungkas' problem.

It is also the problem of all other folks whose certifications are valued less in the market as they should be, because this kind of cheating is happening.

It is market economy any way!!!

So are you saying it is OK to sell question that were illegally obtained just because there is a market for it? And remember, it is illegal, because Sun specifically disallows exam takers from disclosing the exam questions.
[ May 26, 2007: Message edited by: Ulf Dittmer ]

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Bert Bates
author
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 14, 2002
Posts: 8883
    
    5
Wow, tricky topic!

A couple of thoughts:

1 - Dumps of real exam questions are illegal, and using them is cheating.
2 - Memorizing something like [mock test] questions won't help you much in an interview.
3 - Sun attempts to track down and shut down anyone who is distributing real exam questions.
4 - Creating and equitably administering these exams on a worldwide basis is an expensive undertaking, this is not a huge profit center for Sun.
[ May 26, 2007: Message edited by: Marilyn de Queiroz ]

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Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18990
    
  40

It is Sun's problem, NOT Timotius Pamungkas' problem.


I agree that it is Sun's problem. If Sun can't keep cheating down, then employers can't rely on the value of the certification. If employers doesn't place value on the certification, then it won't be valuable to the cert holder either.

I don't agree that it is NOT Timotius Pamungkas' problem. IMHO, the value of the certification is more for the holder than for the employer. The goal of getting the certification, has probably more value than getting a job. It just feels like a waste to take time and money to cheat a certification.

Henry


Books: Java Threads, 3rd Edition, Jini in a Nutshell, and Java Gems (contributor)
Marc Peabody
pie sneak
Sheriff

Joined: Feb 05, 2003
Posts: 4727

This post is a lot like sending an email to the city mayor saying, "I stole a car last night. I'm really disappointed that your police force wasn't adequate enough to stop me."

I think the disappointment really comes knowing that you put some effort into studying and yet you'll never know now how well you really knew the material because the dump tainted your results. There's no "I did it!"

This is why some mock exams aren't listed on our ScwcdLinks page.


A good workman is known by his tools.
Jesus Angeles
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 2057
Originally posted by Marc Peabody:
This post is a lot like sending an email to the city mayor saying, "I stole a car last night. I'm really disappointed that your police force wasn't adequate enough to stop me."

I think the disappointment really comes knowing that you put some effort into studying and yet you'll never know now how well you really knew the material because the dump tainted your results. There's no "I did it!"

This is why some mock exams aren't listed on our ScwcdLinks page.


I guess he would not receive an invitation to your Wall of Fame.
Jesus Angeles
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 2057
I think that if the purpose of taking an exam is just to pass it, it may be a wrong decision to take it.

There should be an intent to learn.

Timotius, if you feel you learned, then there shouldnt be any issue. In addition, you have the cert to show for.

Are you doubting yourself that you may have passed because of the materials you saw? If so, an alternative is, take the exam again. The exam varies for each take - assuming that illegal material doesnt cover it all. Or wait for next scwcd, and be careful on what you use as study materials.
Charles Lyons
Author
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 27, 2003
Posts: 836
I think the whole situation is a bit troublesome: I know when I wrote the questions for my book and my SCWCD mock exam simulator, I deliberately left well over a year between taking the beta (roughly 120 questions) and writing those questions - I wanted to forget the exact questions asked while still maintaining the theme. I hope I've managed to retain the style without giving anything away, but it's sometimes difficult to know that as there are a few really basic questions which could easily come up in the real SCWCD (though the wording wouldn't be identical!). Occasionally mock exam writers don't intend to spoil the exam, but there's always a chance that in a good resource, the odd question will be very similar.

In addition, when I took the SCJP 5 upgrade, I felt a bit miffed by the fact I'd invested several months and a dedicated fortnight preparing for it and it was actually much easier than I thought it would (or should?) be. I was expecting lots of questions testing the intricacies of generics, but in fact only got some very basic questions. Also the API details tested were only the most elementary of methods. So I was a bit disappointed that I'd learnt so much and then found it straightforward - but that's my take: many many people find it very hard too, and for Sun to obtain a balance must be really tricky. What I know is that I'm happier now having learnt all the new language features, and no longer care much about the exam.

So, as was said above, the important thing to take away is whether you've learnt the material honestly: if you have, then the force of taking an exam has been useful to you personally; if not, then the exercise wasn't fruitful at all.


Charles Lyons (SCJP 1.4, April 2003; SCJP 5, Dec 2006; SCWCD 1.4b, April 2004)
Author of OCEJWCD Study Companion for Oracle Exam 1Z0-899 (ISBN 0955160340 / Amazon Amazon UK )
Roseanne Zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 14, 2000
Posts: 1953
Originally posted by Ulf Dittmer:

So are you saying it is OK to sell question that were illegally obtained just because there is a market for it? And remember, it is illegal, because Sun specifically disallows exam takers from disclosing the exam questions.



No, what I meant is that Sun is trying to use the cert exams to make money and gain more market shares.

I guess you did not even read carefully what I said just above what you quoted!!!

Also, I am pretty sure that Sun knows almost all major sites with their real exam questions, but has not shut them down, or does not even want to shut them down???

I am very clear, am not I??

[ May 26, 2007: Message edited by: Roseanne Zhang ]
Roseanne Zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 14, 2000
Posts: 1953
Also, as the original poster pointed out, Sun can make the test exam question base 10 times larger, and to make the cheating much less possible.

Why does Sun choose NOT to do that??? For saving manpower/money, or just for making test easier to pass, for making cheating very easy to succeed???

What is in Sun's mind?

It is market economy any way!!!
[ May 26, 2007: Message edited by: Roseanne Zhang ]
Timotius Pamungkas
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 28

Timotius, if you feel you learned, then there shouldnt be any issue. In addition, you have the cert to show for.


Well, I guess you're right. See the good point, now I know that there is HttpSessionBindingListener which I can use...

Hopefully someone from SUN read this topic, and maybe they can implement my idea -1000 questions database (1000 is enough anyway, no such normal human being can memorize them precisely)-, but, as Roseanne Zhang's post :

It is market economy any way!!!



Personally, I'm just glad that I spent more time on snippets rather than working on mock exams.

OK guys, thanks for your attention...
Atul Sawant
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 06, 2006
Posts: 304
Please remember there are many people who actuallys do not pass or score well in the certification exam.

I have given SCJP and score 91%. Somehow i feel i got just because the questions were easy. When i faced interviews, let me tell you it were the best among all the interviews i had ever given. it was like "dude, i know everything". I was amazed by the knowledge i had (i do not mean to be lofty here.) after preparing so hard for SCJP.

Bottomline.

1) The knowledge is more important (ofcourse certification is also but as we all said knowledge is more important)
2) its bussiness. Any company is like bread and butter to their employees. would you like Sun to come to your home for paying their employees? Have you heard about something called "growth"? blah blah blah blah...(yes, i hear same when my manager speaks stuffs like that...)


Mission SCWCD. Mission SCJP Complete: SCJP 1.4 - 91%
S Kumar
Greenhorn

Joined: May 28, 2007
Posts: 5
[reply removed]
[ May 28, 2007: Message edited by: Bear Bibeault ]
Deepak Bala
Bartender

Joined: Feb 24, 2006
Posts: 6662
    
    5

Well that is pretty disappointing to hear. I had a lot of fun taking this exam (No really !). It was pretty challenging and I came out with a good score and the self satisfaction was pretty amazing. I think the problem is that some so called 'mock exams' actually reveal the real questions without the candidate ever knowing about it. You cant even mention the names of those exams here because the opposite of what you are trying to do may happen Has a request to bring the questions down been made with the webmaster of the site ?


SCJP 6 articles - SCJP 5/6 mock exams - More SCJP Mocks
Bert Bates
author
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 14, 2002
Posts: 8883
    
    5
A couple of points:

1 - Sun DOES attempt to shut these illegal sites down - they're like weeds
2 - Sun spends a lot of money creating high quality exam questions that can be fairly administered on a world-wide basis - Sun doesn't see the lion's share of the $150 you pay.

3 - There's a similar discussion going on at the SCJP forum here:

http://www.coderanch.com/t/263098/java-programmer-SCJP/certification/Scjp-questions

In a nutshell however, cheating on the exam won't help you in a job interview - or at least it shouldn't. If you can cheat on the exam, and somehow convince the interviewer that you know Servlets, I'd say the interviewer is pretty lame.
Timotius Pamungkas
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 28

A couple of points:

1 - Sun DOES attempt to shut these illegal sites down - they're like weeds


Microsoft does (did???) too...

http://tcpmag.com/news/article.asp?editorialsid=1085
Deepak Bala
Bartender

Joined: Feb 24, 2006
Posts: 6662
    
    5

Originally posted by Timotius Pamungkas:


Microsoft does (did???) too...

http://tcpmag.com/news/article.asp?editorialsid=1085


That is so nice to see !
Bert Bates
author
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 14, 2002
Posts: 8883
    
    5
Thanks for this link, I forwarded it to Evelyn at Sun.
[ May 29, 2007: Message edited by: Bert Bates ]
Atul Sawant
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 06, 2006
Posts: 304
I take my words back! I had interview with Direct-i and i sucked!

They asked me all development questions...now i know how badly i need to do SCJD!!
sates ates
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 08, 2008
Posts: 2
[ UD: Removed link to exam cheat site. It seems you misunderstood the point of this thread. JavaRanch is not the place for exchanging knowledge about illicit activity. If you do it again, your account will be closed. ]
[ May 19, 2008: Message edited by: Ulf Dittmer ]
kamalakannan kamal
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 19, 2008
Posts: 32
Hi,
I am planning to take SCWCD exam (310-083). Can any one of you share the matterials and mock questions?
Marcus Green
arch rival
Rancher

Joined: Sep 14, 1999
Posts: 2813
"kamalakannan kamal"
So you want to cheat as well?


SCWCD: Online Course, 50,000+ words and 200+ questions
http://www.examulator.com/moodle/course/view.php?id=5&topic=all
sammeta Phanikumar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 25, 2007
Posts: 81
Hello SUN,

Please take serious actions on this.

I read the ���testing centers are expanded over glob and data base is shared���. Please think in such way don���t give permission (to conduct exam) to small firms and try to reduce promatric centers and increase SUN branches.

When I wrote my SCWCD 5.0 in the last month the proatric center, the person who takes care of that center asked me that "Have you got any real exam dumps for this exam!!", I felt bad and replied NO.

I am proud that I am SUN certified for SCWCD 5.0; please let me continue this in the rest of IT life.


SCJP 5, SCWCD 5, SCDJWS 5
Jesus Angeles
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 2057
Originally posted by sammeta kumar:
Hello SUN,

Please take serious actions on this.

I read the ���testing centers are expanded over glob and data base is shared���. Please think in such way don���t give permission (to conduct exam) to small firms and try to reduce promatric centers and increase SUN branches.

When I wrote my SCWCD 5.0 in the last month the proatric center, the person who takes care of that center asked me that "Have you got any real exam dumps for this exam!!", I felt bad and replied NO.

I am proud that I am SUN certified for SCWCD 5.0; please let me continue this in the rest of IT life.


Did you ask why he asked?

I dont think Sun has asked prometric to ask test takers to be asked that question.

He might be selling those dumps. Ask him why he asked, then report him to Sun if he is selling them.

Otherwise, you still need to report him. It sounds offensive to be asked such a thing.
sammeta Phanikumar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 25, 2007
Posts: 81
Yes, it sounds offensive.But I could not point him that time as I was about to write the exam. And it is clear that if I ask the reply would "Just like that".
Bobby Sharma
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 18, 2008
Posts: 574
    
    1

What if Sun turn all certification to performance based?

or Sun can manage to altar question database every month.

for example Cissp,CEH,Giac,RHCE.

best regards,
omi
[ May 19, 2008: Message edited by: omi sharma ]

Back to Java , again.
Salil Dhawan
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 18, 2006
Posts: 16
I hope problem is solved with SCWCD 5 coming and SCWCD 1.4 no longer there.SUN must have changed questions and hopefully we will have new fresh bunch of questions in SCWCD 5.0 and not anything like cheat sheets.
deep majumder
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 11, 2007
Posts: 14
I am really disappointed after going through this discussion.

I passed my SCJP 5.0 with quite a good score earlier this year and am planning to take SCWCD in a couple of months.

I am sorry to hear that real exam dumps are available in the market. However, I am not opposed to the concept of mock exams in entirity.
I took quite a number of mock exams 2 days before the real exam and am sure no question was repeated in the real exam. But taking those mock exams helped me a lot in identifying my weaknesses, the kind of mistakes I am prone to etc. Even mock exams helped me a lot when I took my engineering entrance exams long back. Mock exams are not always necessarily for cheating. Otherwise this forum itself would not have posted so many mock exam links.

But if such cheatings really take place I fear SUN certifications will get devalued substantially. Actually, when I conveyed the news of my being a SUN certified to my manager, he did not look all that interested and I was disappointed then.

Also I have heard some promatric centres do not check identifications of the candidates thoroughly and as a result someone more skillful than the actual candidate can take the exam. I can not confirm this however as it is purely heresay.

It is true that SUN certifications can help you in getting a good job, but another big issue that I have identified is that many premier organizations force their employees to pass these exams and they are more desparate to pass (for retaining their jobs or for good appraisals) rather than to learn anything and this kind of attitude encourages cheating.

Again I must say that I am disappointed and disheartened after hearing all such thing. My company neither forces (or encourages for that matter) to take these exams nor reimburses the exam money. I took the exam for pure delight of learning something new as I was bored with my job at that point of time and perhaps to be a little proud as well to be SUN certified. I do not want to think that I have wasted my time and money. What's your say.

Regards,
Deep.
John Stone
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 332
I don't think situation is so bad. There may be few cases of cheating, but I don't think it is something wide spread.

I don't trust dumps,.. I think most of the companies just gather some mock questions, label it with "dump" and sell them. Even if you buy some real one, it won't help you in real life. You can save yourself trouble and money and just write on your resume, that you are certified.

In my locality (czech republic), testing center is very thorough, they take it very serious and stick to rules - verifying my identity with multiple IDs, items I can take to exam room,.. I almost expected they would want to see my forehands, if I didn't write anything on them.

Manager's view..
Maybe he didn't look so happy as you, because his interests are elsewhere, in soft skills, QM or web 2.0 :-), but he should notice, that you achieved something in your free time, and that when you leave office and go home you are still interested in stuff you do.

I don't think it is waste of time and money. It's nice to have some cert, showing that you accomplished something. It should mean, that you have certain knowledge and skill.
Salil Dhawan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 18, 2006
Posts: 55
I really want to know whether examination questions really are changed or not for SCWCD as regards SCWCD 1.4 and SCWCD 5.0?


Salil Dhawan<br />SCJP 1.4, SCWCD 5.0, SCDJWS 1.4<br /> <br /><a href="http://www.views-point.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">ViewPoint</a>
Deepak Bala
Bartender

Joined: Feb 24, 2006
Posts: 6662
    
    5

I dont see why you should stop taking certifications just because some people cheat. Thats like saying I dont want a job just because some people show fake job experience to get a job.

It does not matter what your managers think about it. Any certification will look good on your resume as long as you earn it.

Anywho, its quite easy to separate the cheaters from the real deal in an interview.
Garlapati Ravi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 05, 2008
Posts: 171
who ever cheated the exam will get caught in technical interviews, dont worry about that at all, just chill and get prepare for exam(with hardwork)


Ravi Kumar
SCWCD 5 - 89%, SCJP 1.4 - 90%
Salil Dhawan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 18, 2006
Posts: 55
You are right but still i am waiting for comment from forum members as whether SUN has really made 5.0 performance based as compared to 1.4.Most importantly for 5.0 have they really changed all the questions which were earlier there in SCWCD 1.4?
i.e. no questions are similar in 1.4 and 5.0?

Please comment
Ulf Dittmer
Marshal

Joined: Mar 22, 2005
Posts: 42612
    
  65
Originally posted by Salil Dhawan:
Have they really changed all the questions which were earlier there in SCWCD 1.4? i.e. no questions are similar in 1.4 and 5.0?


Why does that matter? The objectives are the same, and I would imagine the difficulty level of the questions is the same. It's my understanding that Sun routinely retires questions and introduces new ones. Why would it matter if all the questions are new, or just some?
Salil Dhawan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 18, 2006
Posts: 55
Because if SUN says 5.0 exam has become 'Performance based' then 1.4 then questions are meant to change and they should.It cant be made without changing questions.Is it?
Ulf Dittmer
Marshal

Joined: Mar 22, 2005
Posts: 42612
    
  65
As I said, questions change all the time. Why does it matter how many are new in a particular version of the exam? The important thing is that the objectives are the same, no?
Salil Dhawan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 18, 2006
Posts: 55
If objectives and questions are same,i guess why 5.0 or a new exam.Continue with old one?Why changing for the sake of changing?Strange...
 
Don't get me started about those stupid light bulbs.
 
subject: Disappointed by SCWCD and Sun