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JavaRanch » Java Forums » Certification » Developer Certification (SCJD/OCMJD)
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Author

Watch out for people like this!!

Steve Wayne
Greenhorn

Joined: Jan 20, 2001
Posts: 14
I got this as a response from someone to my recent posting about passing the scjd. Incredible!!
Hello Steve Wayne sir,
first of all i want to congractulate you on your brilliant success .
probabely you don't know me i am a javarancher as you are. i had passed scjp
with 96%. and downloaded the scjd assignment two month before. i enclosed
that assignment copy with this mail. actully i want your kind cooperation.
first of all i want to tell you some thing about me. i am a college student
i am in the final year of my engineering now. i am doing part time job to
continue my studies. when i download scjd assignment i feel that i can do
that. but after reading the instruction and objectives i feel that is not in
my limits. now i feel my 14000\-Rs ($250) will be wasted.
i can't explain you that how difficult was me for arrange that big money as
a student. can you please kindly give me your assignment so after studying
your way of implementing solution i also be able to make that assignment. i
know that sun microsystem has made an agreement with every candidate to not
to disclose their assignment and solution and every solution should be
unique. no one can copy else solution. but i promise you i didn't do my
assignment as you are. i just want to know how exacly the gui should be look
alike. i want to see how exactly can one implement that database server by
hand.i will be very greatful to you if you please give me your solution
regarding scjd assignment. i am not in the condition to lose my scjd fees.
because only i know that how exacly i collect that fees. and what i have to
do for that money. now because you are passed so i request(bag) you please
give me your solution. because i don't think that may cause any difficulti
to you and for me it will be a great help. please sir help me on the basis
of humanity . i will be very greatfull to you till my whole life . please
sir help me.
-Kanchan Sharma

His e-mail is kanchansharma@usa.com if you want to contact him.
Steve
Skip Cole
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 05, 2001
Posts: 175
Hi,
I don't think this is the right place for you to publically expose this person.
I think you should just right him back, and explain why what he proposes is wrong, and leave it at that. Since there is no time limit he *can* do the assignment. It will just take longer.
He sounds like a young person, under a lot of pressure. Later in his life he will look back and say "Yeah, that was wrong of me."
But publically humiliating him does no good. Maybe you can remove or edit away your post. I don't think it is right.
Skip


If you love me, you will visit docs.opensimplatform.org
(FYI, Getting it tattooed on is a bit much.)
Steve Wayne
Greenhorn

Joined: Jan 20, 2001
Posts: 14
Hi Skip,
I respectfully, and strongly, disagree. I think that it's very important to not dilute the value of a certification and this guy is attempting to do just that. When I look at any qualification on a resume, either a degree or a certification, I have to have full faith that that qualification was earned. If someone cheated their way to a degree or certification by plagiary, then everyone is hurt, especially those who earned it.
That said, I'll defer to the JavaRanch Bartender.
Steve
Rudy Yeung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 27, 2000
Posts: 183
Steve,
I would suggest you to reply him and tell him to attend more on our forum. Anything that he does not know, he can post questions and ask.
Rudy
vin miller
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 01, 2001
Posts: 33
word for word.
I just ignored it.
1. You have forever to complete the assignment.
2. If you don't have the skills, develop them. I barely knew what rmi was when I started my assignment.
http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/ - It's free
Harry Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 22, 2000
Posts: 53
I say beware of people like this. If any one wants to do the SCJD they have to be ready for it. This forum does not have a requirement that you download the assingment to ask a question. If you need to judge your capabilites, ask some one here BEFORE you do it. If you think you've bitten off more than you can chew, learn from it.
I'm trying to gather my wits about this assignment too.
Rahul Rathore
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 30, 2000
Posts: 324
Yeah what Kanchan asked was wrong.
But there is something said about people living in glass houses ...
On this developer forum, every day we are discussing step by small step, detail by excruciating detail, every minute to major problem in DESIGN and CODING. We are liberally displaying and sharing the logic, and CODING for the implementation of the project. Everybody is participating.
This global cooperation would be impressive otherwise. But for this limited exam-project ?? The entire exam assignment is being reduced to a farce. I personally feel that the developer's forum should be abolished or strictly controlled. Let the question on RMI, threads etc. be dispersed to the relevant forums of the Java ranch.
I agree with Rudy, that Kanchan can get everything he wants on the Developer's forum Java Ranch.
Rudy Yeung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 27, 2000
Posts: 183
Rahul,
I disagree with you about abolishing this developer's forum because I do not see anything wrong with this forum. Every one of us is like a student, and through this channel, we can come together and discuss about the same project. It is basically part of the learning process.
Honestly speaking, I really learn a lot of technical skills out of this forum.
Rudy
Steve Wayne
Greenhorn

Joined: Jan 20, 2001
Posts: 14
I agree with Rudy. There's a huge difference between discussing a specific problem and copying the entire assignment. In order to intelligently discuss a problem, you have to think it through and at least understand what you don't know about it. And while it may be true that you can get the entire assignment from this user group, it'd still be a lot of work to put it all together and test it!
I used this board extensively on my assignment, especially the locking/unlocking piece. I even found some code snipet that I cut and paste and used as a starting point. But I still spent a good 15/20 hours testing and debugging it! By the time I was done, not only did I fully understand everything about the problem, but I felt that the code was completely my own. You're not going to get that level of understanding by copying a complete assignment.
The level of collaberation on this user group is very similar to what takes place on any campus. Students get together and discuss specific details of a problem and sometimes even do the problem together. When they turn in their assignment no one acuses them of plagiarism.
With all of the help available on this user board (and others) I still spent well over 100 hours on this assignment (actually it was closer to 120). If you look at any thread, my guess is that others on this board are expending the same level of effort (and that's the real value of the certification, not the download fee. It's worth much closer to $10/15K then $250). I want to do my part to make sure that that effort keeps its value. By exposing this fraud I hope to help maintain the integrity of the certification.
Steve



Matt DeLacey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 318
Yeah, I disagree with Rahul. With respect, I understand where
that sentiment is coming from. I was getting ready to write a treatise on why I feel that it's misguided, but Steve said it all. My feeling exactly.
Matt
Rahul Rathore
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 30, 2000
Posts: 324
Steve,
I am not at all supporting Kanchan. Far from it.
I am also doing my SCJD project, and dearly want to preserve the value of certification.
I only want to suggest:-
1. Let us introspect before feeling so righteous and condemning another.
2. Let us take ALL (rather than selective) steps necessary to preserve the value of certification even those which are inconvenient to us.
Steve, your honesty in admitting that you too sometimes resorted to the cut-paste approach, I admire. However, your claim to a moral highground I don't.
I think, whether we spent a 100 hours or a 1000 does not matter, because we are not being tested on the number of hours we spent.
Your comparison with a campus discussion appears attractive at first blush. But the issue, I feel, is the degree and detail of such 'cooperation':-
1. Does everybody in the campus get an identical assignment like in SCJD? or how many get an identical assignment?
2. What is the time-period within which the college assignment must be submitted? Is it unlimited, like the SCJD assignment?
3. What is the number of persons in the campus who you can/do cooperate or collaborate with in completing your assignment?
4. What is the level of detail and specifics of such cooperation? Is it permitted?
5. If something is done on the campus, does that make it right on the campus or otherwise?
If the assignment was a project to catch a fish, and the collective expertise of the web-forums was an expert fisherman, then the kind of interaction sometimes is akin to this:-
candidate: "How do I catch a fish?"
fisherman: "With a fishing rod?"
candidate: "What is a fishing rod?"
fisherman: "This is a fishing rod"- points to the fishing rod in his hand.
candidate: "Can you lend it to me?"
fisherman: "Sure." - Hands over the fishing rod.
candidate: "Now what do I do with this rod?"
fisherman: "throw the hook blah blah."
candidate: "How do I throw the hook?"
fisherman: "This is how"- takes rod and throws hook.
candidate: "Now what?"
fisherman: "Hold rod and wait for fish to bite."
candidate: "How? Can you do it for me?"
fisherman: "Sure" - Holds the rod.
candidate: "How do we know the fish is caught?"
fisherman: "We'll feel a tug, blah blah .."
while(!isFishCaught()) {
candidate: "Is the fish caught now?"
fisherman: "No"
candidate: "So now what?"
fisherman: "We'll do this"- moves to a another position and rethrows hook etc.
}
candidate: "Have we caught a fish?"
fisherman: "yes"
candidate: "Now what do we do?"
fisherman: "Reel it in?"
candidate: "How do we reel it in?"
fisherman: "This is how."- Reels it in and unhooks the fish.
candidate: "Is this the fish?"
fisherman: "yes."
candidate: "Great I did it !!"- grabs the fish- and goes home
candidate: "Look ma (Sun Educational Services) I caught the fish" - waves fish triumphantly.
ma: "Good Boy !"
everyone: "Wow ! Awesome !"
anUnholyCandidate: "Please can you lend me that fish?"
candidate: "(SHOCKED AND OUTRAGED) Hey, imagine that ! Beware everyone, what a big fraud he is !! I spent a hundred hours doing it ..."
So whose fish is it anyway??
Rudy Yeung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 27, 2000
Posts: 183
Rahul,
If we really have to be very strict to preserve the value of the certification, the most ideal way to achieve this is send us to a prison to work on the assignment where we get no Java books, no internet, no online Java documentation and no people to talk with.
Rudy
Praveen Zala
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 02, 2000
Posts: 118
Hi Steve,
It is in the best of the Certification's interest that you
have tried to expose him/her ....bur believe me you could have
tken this offline !
Prav
Steve Wayne
Greenhorn

Joined: Jan 20, 2001
Posts: 14
Rahul,
I love your fish story! I laughed out loud! It's very funny and has a level of insight.
However, it would more accurately portray the facts at hand if the candidate needed the fish as proof of his fisherman skill in order to get a fishermans job. So, rather than taking the fish home to ma, he takes the fish to the fishing boat on the dock and says, 'See this fish, I spent 100 hours catching it and I am now ready to be a fisherman'. The captian of the fishing boat sees the fish and takes at face value that the young candidate has learned to fish. And even if he learned while someone was holding his hand, he still has spent the effort to learn. When the unholy candidate steals the fish and presents it to the fishing captian, he is doing so fraudulently, and may ultimately require the captian to find a new criteria for determining the skill of fishermen.
It is right for candidate fishermen to be indignant with the unholy candidate, at the very least they will say, 'Catch your own f###### fish'. And they will certainly talk amongst themselves, 'Watch out for that guy, he is trying to steal a fish'.
It would also be more accurate if, instead of a single experienced fisherman, there was several other candidate fisherman. The young candidate is actually asking several different candidates how to hold the pole, how to cast, how to feel if a fish is on the line. Your point about the 'spoon feeding', the minute detail to which people discuss the assignment is well taken. But the candidate is ultimately responsible for hauling the fish in and with that, he can proudly display his fish to the fishing boat captian as proof of his new found fishing skill.
Steve
Ajit Kumar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 27, 2001
Posts: 81
Hi Guys,
I would like to offer my comments here.
- I do not support what kanchan has tried to do.
Having said that, here are my views....
- I am in total agreement with Rahul. What he says makes 100 percent sense to me.
Rudy, you are taking things to the extreme. You have said that we should be put in a prison and made us to work through the assignment. Atleast i do not infer that from Rahul's comments. It only shows that you are not taking his comments in the right sense.
If you take some time and go through the content of all postings here you would agree that most of the assignment is pretty much done here.
I believe, there has been a discussion sometime back (here or somewhere else) about collaboration on this assignment. I guess, someone has mentioned that Sun recommends collaboration (or collective effort whatever). Later on there was no reply from the same person, when he was asked if he has seen anything like that on any Sun related websites.
In reality, what we are doing in this forum is TOTALLY WRONG.
If you want to take to the extreme and assume that i am considering it as wrong to discuss a technical issue with a colleague of yours or refer to an online tutorial, then i am sorry to say that you have misunderstood my point of view.
Internet is accessible to millions of users. People from all parts of the world at all time zones can access it. In essence what we are doing here is making it a single global assignment. I am sure you would agree with that.
- Isn't there any difference between discussing your assignment (the fishing example from Rahul was a good one) and referring to an online tutorial for a specific technical question.
- Dont we all know that this assignment is meant for individuals. This is not a global assignment. Sun is not going to give a certification for "java ranch scjd forum" , it is going to be given to a specific individual.
- We must truly appreciate steve's honesty about copying code from this forum. Let us take a case where someone else is a little more honest and got his SCJD without copying anything from this forum or from anybody. That person would think that anybody who has copied code is NOT doing right. He would think that this forum it self should be CLOSED permanently.
- I do not really think that exposing Kanchan's email on the internet is such a good idea. As i said, internet has access to millions of users. Think about that. May be, as Praveen has suggested, you could have explained her off-line in your email. May be they are not aware of the fact that there is no time limit on the assignment.
That might not have gotten this kind of exposure (good or bad) to your posting here in this forum, but i certainly believe that it would have been the more appropriate way of handling it.
- May be you should consider editing it and make it a general posting conveying the same message. You may want to think about that.
- I would like to urge the coordinator of this forum to make this forum most strict about discussing specific details about the project. May be, you should consider the idea of even removing this forum totally. We have lots of Java User Groups in almost every part of the world, if we have a specific technical questions and we would like to seek help from other java developers.
Thanks
[This message has been edited by Ajit Kumar (edited March 18, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Ajit Kumar (edited March 18, 2001).]
Vladan Radovanovic
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 20, 2000
Posts: 216
I completely agree with Ajit and Rahul. I think very soon this certification will lose its value ( if it has any value right now).
Vladan
Abhijeet Premkumar
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 02, 2000
Posts: 18
Steve,
You're not the only person Kanchan Sharma has emailed to regarding the assignment. Her first mail came to me when I had posted a few responses on the forum. She had blatantly asked for my assignment (java2.jar). I promptly ignored the mail.
I got an exact copy of the mail she sent you. She had asked me for my completed assignment after I posted my success story on the forum. It's unbelievable that someone can stoop to such a level as to attempt to plagiarize one's work.
However, I did reply to this mail detailing why I will not share my work with her and let her off with a warning that any further requests for the completed source code etc. would be reported to Sun Education Services.
Just for your reference....all such requests can be forwarded to Diane.Hudlin@central.sun.com .
I believe they know how to deal with problems like this.
I didn't see any point in publicly humiliating this person but I now realize that this is not an isolated incident and therefore feel that I have to speak up and be heard.
Discussing design issues is not a problem with me but what really riles me is someone asking for the solution outright!
Just my opinion though...
---
Abhijeet
Originally posted by Steve Wayne:
I got this as a response from someone to my recent posting about passing the scjd. Incredible!!
Hello Steve Wayne sir,
first of all i want to congractulate you on your brilliant success .
probabely you don't know me i am a javarancher as you are. i had passed scjp
with 96%. and downloaded the scjd assignment two month before. i enclosed
that assignment copy with this mail. actully i want your kind cooperation.
first of all i want to tell you some thing about me. i am a college student
i am in the final year of my engineering now. i am doing part time job to
continue my studies. when i download scjd assignment i feel that i can do
that. but after reading the instruction and objectives i feel that is not in
my limits. now i feel my 14000\-Rs ($250) will be wasted.
i can't explain you that how difficult was me for arrange that big money as
a student. can you please kindly give me your assignment so after studying
your way of implementing solution i also be able to make that assignment. i
know that sun microsystem has made an agreement with every candidate to not
to disclose their assignment and solution and every solution should be
unique. no one can copy else solution. but i promise you i didn't do my
assignment as you are. i just want to know how exacly the gui should be look
alike. i want to see how exactly can one implement that database server by
hand.i will be very greatful to you if you please give me your solution
regarding scjd assignment. i am not in the condition to lose my scjd fees.
because only i know that how exacly i collect that fees. and what i have to
do for that money. now because you are passed so i request(bag) you please
give me your solution. because i don't think that may cause any difficulti
to you and for me it will be a great help. please sir help me on the basis
of humanity . i will be very greatfull to you till my whole life . please
sir help me.
-Kanchan Sharma

His e-mail is kanchansharma@usa.com if you want to contact him.
Steve

Andrew Spruce
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 27, 2001
Posts: 21
I'm with Steve.
The number of small details and amount of background understanding required for this assignment is not insubstantial. Some people benefit from reading a book twice, others benefit from reading the book once, discussing the points they thought were interesting with others and then re-reading in a different light.
That is where I see the value of this group.
From what I have read on this group so far, no one is providing me with answers, and if they were I would feel compelled to check them thoroughly and explore alternatives. Instead they are merely providing direction for the relative importance of certain design issues over others.
This is not devaluation of the certification, nor is it blatant plagiarism.
Now Steve is your assignment really good enough for me to copy

[This message has been edited by Andrew Spruce (edited March 27, 2001).]
Tom Peillon
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 30, 2001
Posts: 9
Whilst I agree that it was wrong for Kanchan to make the request she did, I would like to offer a few points in her defence:
1) $250 is probably a serious amount of money for an Indian student. Probably the equivalent of several thousand dollars for most of us.
2) I understand that in India, due to the widespread corruption, it is quite easy to 'buy' qualifications. A colleague of mine who recently visited India reported that he was offered a SJCP for the equivalent of $30 (he refused). If Kanchan was only after the qualification, she could probably buy it.
3) From what I understand there are a number of different assignments for a number of java platforms. The chances that she could directly copy an assignment would probably be quite small. Possibly she did genuinly want to simply learn from it, not copy it.
 
Don't get me started about those stupid light bulbs.
 
subject: Watch out for people like this!!