Originally posted by Rob Ross in http://www.javaranch.com ubb=get topic &f=10&t=001017 If you are really serious about being professional, then I must sadly criticize the Java Ranch logo – the one-eyed moose.
The time, that we may afford for certain site or at Internet at large, depends on potential impression by nearby colleagues, relatives (some of them children), employers, clients, and even of librarians where you use access the Internet. It would have been more advantageous to pass an image of working person, but not trailing after flies or peeping through rotten.com (if there would be much difference for casual observer) One glance, long memory!
Whoa - Could be a big hornets nest here, but I can't resist! I have only been coming to JavaRanch for about three months now, but it seems to me that one of the reasons it's so successful is that it really IS a friendly place. I always wonder how many JavaRanchers never make a post... but IMHO a lot more people post here because it is friendly, than post at other 'stuffier' sites. Having a relaxed and friendly atmosphere doesn't mean that important things aren't happening ! I think the quality of thought and level of expertise here are truly astounding ! My vote is, keep it friendly, keep it relaxed, and let's keep the best talent right here - JavaRanch Rocks !! In terms of the value of certification, I have to say that I have been a hiring manager for many years. You can always determine how much experience an applicant has, and if I'm comparing two applicants with similar experience levels, a certification definitely makes a difference!
Spot false dilemmas now, ask me how!
(If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much room.)
Joined: May 05, 2000
Originally posted by Bert Bates: In terms of the value of certification, I have to say that I have been a hiring manager for many years. You can always determine how much experience an applicant has, and if I'm comparing two applicants with similar experience levels, a certification definitely makes a difference!
And you are completely unbiased in spite of your relationship with a certain cowgirl who will go nameless. personally, I have never cared about a certification when I was hiring. The only thing that ever mattered was experience.
Originally posted by G Vanin: It would have been more advantageous to pass an image of working person, but not trailing after flies or peeping through rotten.com (if there would be much difference for casual observer)
The guy TOLD you not to look at rotten.com, and you LOOKED anyway :roll: . As to the image of JavaRanch, we have also been told that we are TOO serious and need to lighten up more . . . you just can NOT please everyone. So - we like to keep it playful. If you want an "image of a working person" try java.sun.com. It's boring enough for ANYONE .
"JavaRanch, where the deer and the Certified play" - David O'Meara
Joined: Aug 30, 2001
Originally posted by Bert Bates:
In terms of the value of certification, I have to say that I have been a hiring manager for many years. You can always determine how much experience an applicant has, and if I'm comparing two applicants with similar experience levels, a certification definitely makes a difference!
Give me your Email to send you my CV. I am not worried because I am Russian and I am currently trying to loose my weight and feel more hungry than five Russians! It is an official opinion here that nobody can compete with five hungry Russians!
and you think US is right place to keep your weight down?
Joined: Oct 14, 2002
Thomas - To clarify, imho experience IS much more important than certification... However, certification is a GREAT tie-breaker. It's like a little college degree, it demonstrates an applicant's desire, intelligence, work ethic, and ability to focus. Frankly, when I see an applicant with a college degree I don't think to myself- 'oooh I'm sure we can really use whatever wonderful new technology this guy learned at school'. Instead, I think 'this guy (gal) is smart, a good communicator, (listening and speaking), and has demonstrated committment. So in a little micro sort of way certification is like that. So, let me repeat - experience beats certification, but certification is a great tie-breaker ! -Bert
Originally posted by Bert Bates: To clarify, imho experience IS much more important than certification... However, certification is a GREAT tie-breaker.
That seems a bit odd to me. I have never had two resumes where the two candidates were equal and I needed a tie breaker. If it ever did happen I would have both candidates come in for an interview and the interview would decide the issue. I would NEVER reject a candidate because they weren't certified which is what using the certification as a tie-breaker is. [ January 27, 2003: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]
Joined: Oct 14, 2002
Thomas - Sorry for the misunderstanding... I never meant to imply that the process for hiring candidates could be reduced to any sort of algorithm, where a mechanical 'tie-breaker' could be the ultimate deciding factor. My experience is that finding great analysts is a very subjective, whole-brained activity. I can't give you a percentage breakdown, or a precise hierachy of significant attributes. I have to say that there are many factors, they are dynamic, and that certification is often part of that mix. Just as an example, I have often been looking specifically for college interns, in whatever 'fuzzy logic' I might apply to selecting a hire from a group of candidates, I'd have t o say that certification is a bigger factor than when I'm looking for say, architects with many years of experience . Another point is that when you study to be certified you learn language fundamentals in a much more thorough way than you might if you're 'on the job' trying to make a deadline. Ian Darwin, in the 'Java Cookbook' has a wonderful line... 'Learning the API well is a good grounds for avoiding that deadly "reinventing the flat tire" syndrome - coming up with a second-rate equivalent of a first-rate product that was available to you the whole time.' I believe that most people who have studied for and passed the SCJP exam probably spent a good deal of time with their noses in the 'Java Developer's Almanac' or 'Java in a Nutshell'. Those people will be far less apt to 'reinvent a flat tire'.
Guess I had to join in with my obivously *completely* objective thoughts... We can debate the value of certification, but we'd have to define "value". There's *real* value and *perceived* value. And then there's real *knowledge and personal* value and real *career* value. Also, one cannot compare certifications and make a general statement. An MCSE certification has a *perceived* value that is very different from an SCJP certification. SCJP is *perceived* as being much, much harder to achieve. Given those distintions, certification is valuable in many ways: * According to Sun stats, the demand for certification -- by employers -- is strong and still growing both in spite of and BECAUSE of the economic downturn. * As long as an employer DOES perceive that certification has value, the certification has value. * Many companies have customer requirements that all consultants or contract programmers be certified. It is no guarantee of any performance level, but at least it says SOMETHING that is concrete as opposed to, "take our word for it." Again, doesn't matter if it actually means anything real or not. * The value to a programmer for knowledge (setting aside job employment value) is that nearly ALL certified programmers agree that they learned things they would not otherwise have learned, given that so much of a programmer's knowledge comes ad hoc when a project requires this new capability. And that without that broader, deeper understanding of the language itself, they may be making mistakes they never even knew they were making -- having THOUGHT they understood it but really didn't. We hear over and over again that programmers who study for the exam, even those who've been Java programmers for two years, say, "...OH... so *that's* how it works!" And purely anecdotal... Bert and I taught a certification workshop on the last Java Geekcruise, and ALL candidates there were sent BY their employers (and each from a different company and part of the country (and world). That means the employers paid for both the cruise AND the certification workshop. So in this case, their employers felt it important enough to spend the money and get them certified. The reasons they gave were all different, but nonetheless the value to the candidates was that their employers wanted them certified (and boy oh boy were they grateful that a certification workshop just happened to be offered on a cruise ship * Other *values* of certification include intangibles like the candidate's satisfaction of having studied and passed such a difficult exam. Some don't care about this -- they're only doing it for a job, but most DO in the end, seem to care, even those who hadn't previously thought of that as a value in and of itself. * Let's not forget the cool lapel pin. I doubt anyone can argue against the fact that experience is more important than certification, and that SCJP doesn't prove you can program your way out of a paper bag (let alone work from the often fuzzy, ever-changing spec). But there's more to the picture and again, even if you personally (and so many others) would not give certification one shred of though when choosing an employee, as long as there is a huge group who WOULD, certification has value. And as long as the certification remains difficult to study for and achieve, the certification has value all by itself, whether it leads to a job or not. Even if the programmer *never* works in Java again, passing this exam has value. * Let's also not forget the sheer pleasure and delight that comes with reading a good certification book Hmmmm and back to the moose thing, well, most of you already know my thoughts about the whole "unprofessional" thing! As Cindy said, we can't please everyone, but javaranch was NOT created as a site to please everyone. It was created to please only those who: a) have a sense of humour b) want a friendly, happy, FUN place c) don't give a damn about serious professionalism d) enjoy thinking about and playing with Java e) want to pass the exam f) tend to be on the deviant, subversive, or wacky side. Sorry, but I created javaranch with the SOLE purpose of being a friendly, playful, *irreverant* place that was an oasis from "serious professionalism". (and was also dedicated to helping you get through the certification process). Anyone who doesn't feel comfortable with the atmosphere/image belongs somewhere else, especially since ANYONE has the power to start their own website with their own preferred image, and for pretty much no cost. That's the magic of the Web I had created the idea of the Moose but had not yet made artwork for it when I gave the site to Paul, nervous of course, that the javaranch image might be suppressed into something more dry and business-like. But when I saw the Moose I was thrilled -- it was PERFECT And one more time for the record -- Paul (and others) offered to BUY javaranch. I refused because I would have preferred it disappear rather than "sell out". It was only after Paul convinced me (and you have no idea how hard he tried and how persistent he was) that he, too, was a believer. I would HIGHLY encourage people to get out there and make their own sites. Marcus did. Paul did. I did. Ed Roman did. If you have enough computing power to visit javaranch, you have enough computing power to make your own. I think it would be better for the whole java community if there were more diversity in sites, rather than trying to water down one site to the point where it pleases everyone. If you please everybody, you inspire nobody. Long live the Moose! Long live Certification [books]! -cowgirl p.s. if you think javaranch has an image issue, just wait until you see what O'Reilly is coming out with in May. Talk about an image deviation Fortunately, Tim O'Reilly is brave enough to boldy go where no Java book has ever gone.
Just to point out, a discussion of the merits of certification would probably be a better fit in the certification forums. Guennadii's signature is what started the topic here, but it wasn't really what he was posting about here. As for the moose image - one option to consider is disabling image loading in your browser. Maybe that's not the ideal solution for you, but at least it's an option... [ January 26, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]