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The moose likes Developer Certification (SCJD/OCMJD) and the fly likes SCJD is the worthless lazy bum of the family? Big Moose Saloon
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SCJD is the worthless lazy bum of the family?

Morgan Bath
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 16, 2004
Posts: 196
I mean it looks good, but it sits around on its ass all day doing nothing but combing its hair and looking in the mirror.
**Dont worry, this is not a rant I am actually working to a point here....
Ok, so where to start:
Id like to start by saying that I define 'worthless' to mean 'worth no more money' or 'has no effect on making you more employable'. I think the SCJD was worth it for me just for the chance to improve my J2SE skills (which were atrophying because of J2EE lazy bum symdrome). So what im discussing is how much impact the letters SCJD have on your CV. Is SCJD worthless as it stands? Other SCJD accept you into their club and teach you the secret handshake. But do the people that count (the ones paying your salary) even care?
-----------------------------
Lets start at the beginning: SCJP. This is a great step for your CV. It immediately distinguishes you from the tens of thousands of 'programmers' who claim to be Java experts cos they wrote a JavaScript function one time. You know the ones. The dot-com refugees. You are certified to call yourself a Java Programmer. In fact Sun Microsystems even lend you their logo. Your agent is cooing like a dove.
You then get your Business component certification and your agent has to change his underwear because you can now add buzz terms like EJB and J2EE to your 'certified' list.
You follow it up with a rapid fire addition of Web component developer and an IBM cert to stack up JSP, Servlet and XML to your name, and your agent starts planning the party.
Finally you phone him up, excited beyond belief. You are so hyper over this latest certification you can barely speak and your agent is gripped, wondering what more you can possibly add to your sexy resume. And you announce ... "I did it, I passes the Java Developer certification".
*pause*
"Yeah? And that's good is it?"
-----------------------------------------
I mean look at it from his point of view. Youre already certified in Java. So now your certified twice. I mean be honest, when was the last time you told someone you were a developer and they went .."Oooohh wow, thats so much better than being a programmer" ?

Well, not one to let an important issue like this lie, I have decided that the SCJD certification needs a makeover! And the first thing we need is a new name! So its suggestion time! I have a few.
Sun Certified J2SE Expert
Sun Certified Expert Solution Developer
Sun Certified Java Shaman
Sun Certified and then some!
Sun Certified Wizard
Sun Certified Money Making Machine
Sun Certified God (Or Sun God for short)
Sun Certified Master of Java
Sun Certified Doctor of Java
Sun Certified Honourable Object Oriented Lord (SCHOOL)

Anyone else have any suggestions? Apart from "Go to bed Morgan, its late and you are losing your mind!"
[ March 24, 2004: Message edited by: Morgan Bath ]

Morgan
SCJP (1.4), SCJD (1.4), SCWCD (1.3), SCBCD (1.3)
Satish Avadhanam
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 697
Hey Morgan, I will vote just incase Evelyn sees this.
Originally posted by Morgan Bath:

Sun Certified J2SE ExpertOK
Sun Certified Expert Solution DeveloperOK
Sun Certified Java Shaman
Sun Certified and then some!and then somemore...to it
Sun Certified WizardNot sure
Sun Certified Money Making MachineAtleast if they change to this, people will realize that they have to give jobs and raise the pay
Sun Certified God (Or Sun God for short)"Sun God" -- It would be fun for recruiters to search for this buzz word
Sun Certified Master of JavaOK
Sun Certified Doctor of JavaWe can add Ph.D(Java) in CV . Just in case you think why I did'nt write the same for Master, then I already have one so Ph.D will looks good beside it right
Sun Certified Honourable Object Oriented Lord (SCHOOL)Not sure
Apart from "Go to bed Morgan, its late and you are losing your mind!"

If its really getting late...take the first sentence from my side "Go to bed Morgan" and sleep well.

[ March 21, 2004: Message edited by: Morgan Bath ]
Andrew Monkhouse
author and jackaroo
Marshal Commander

Joined: Mar 28, 2003
Posts: 11280
    
  59

Hi Morgan,
I was tempted to move this to Jobs Discussion, but I decided it is relevant for here.
You may be right about SCJD not meaning much to a recruiter. But then again, I doubt that many of these certificates mean much to recruiters anyway - they just like to see that you have the right buzzwords in your resume / cover letter.
But when it comes to the employer, I think it does have value. Most employers do think about what level of competence they want their employee's to have. Depending on the size of the company, they may need multiple skill sets, including "programmers", "developers", "architects", "engineers" and so on. If they know what is involved in SCJD, then they will know that you are versitile enough to learn and sucessfully implement multiple technologies based on vague specifications. This is an extremely valuable skill - that is the sort of person I try to employ, rather than just another "programmer" who may need explicit instructions and/or lots of mentoring.
And even if the employee doesn't know what is involved in SCJD, you have something you can talk knowlegeably about in your interview to impress them.
The other certificates, while valuable, do not impress me as much. They tell me that you know what the APIs are, and how the architecture hangs together, but they do not tell me whether you can implement anything using those other architectures. If I am looking for someone to work on my JSPs, I will want the applicant to have SCWCD so that I know that they have taken the time to learn about web development in depth, but I will also want to know what they have done in real life before I would consider them for a real development role.
Regards, Andrew


The Sun Certified Java Developer Exam with J2SE 5: paper version from Amazon, PDF from Apress, Online reference: Books 24x7 Personal blog
Satish Avadhanam
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 697
Hi all, I was thiking of posting a couple of questions for so many days now, but did'nt. Thought this is where I can ask them.
Note: CS refers to Computer Science in the discussion.
1. I am just wondering about the difficulty level of the exam when compared to the CS projects done in Master's. Is it equal to atleast one course project or its above that.
2. Can we compare this by any means to CS Master's project?
3. I have read many posts regarding the time limit, but thought of asking it anyway. How much time will it take for a non-CS to complete the project fulltime?
Thanks for sharing your ideas.
Morgan Bath
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 16, 2004
Posts: 196
Guess what Im trying to say Andrew is we need to raise the awareness in the business about SCJD I can sell my skills with or without certification. But I am also aware so can others. Even those with no real expertise in the area (Hell I have 2 friends who talk like java gods and really dont know squat beyond the basics). Certification should help just tip the balance in your favour. The SCJP, SCWCD and WCBCD do that. They tell the employer that I havnt just scripted JSP pages for a few years but that I know how to package, and deploy the things manually. When the IDE creates EJB for the junior programmers they know Im the one that actually understands what the DD does which will reduce error tracking time by 99%!
Im constantly amazed how little knowledge recruitment agencies have about the Java industry. I even saw one company in late 2002 early 2003 asking for experienced developers with OVER 6 years experience in J2EE. When I asked them for clarification on their needs, they really had no idea why I would even ask such a question.
It doesnt give me much faith that the SCJD will stand out on my CV. And it really should. I should make it bright purple, 36pt font with animated icon arrows pointing to it.
And as to Satish question id say SCJD was harder. You cant double check your design and code with the tutor, you get no feedback from Sun, in fact the guys here will become your best and only friends for several weeks, possibly months if you are employed. I would only suggest you do this if you are the sort of person that actually loves doing this sort of thing OR if your campany pay for it, and give you a few weeks off to do it. Its frustrating, somewhat daunting but its great fun and you will probably learn some things you didnt know and polish some skills you have not used for a while
Vishwa Kumba
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 27, 2003
Posts: 1064
Looking at my SCBCD cert on my CV, one agent even asked me, if I would be interested in a business analyst position, since I had SUN certification in business analysis.
Maybe SUN could launch a new certification for the recruiting agents.
SCJR - Sun certified Java Recruiter
Since I work in a support role, my exp for the last 2 yrs has been same. Once I pass SCJD, I intend replace the word "programmer" with the "developer" on my CV. Will the agent(s) understand or even spot the spelling difference? :roll:
Morgan Bath
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 16, 2004
Posts: 196
Originally posted by Vish Kumar:
I intend replace the word "programmer" with the "developer" on my CV. Will the agent(s) understand or even spot the spelling difference? :roll:

Sod it, put "Architect" on your CV. In the good old days it was "Systems analyst" It reminds me of the "Im not a hairdresser, Im a STYLIST" line.
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Comparing what is required for SCJD with the free Open source JBoss Application server will give an idea of the level of difficulty.
There's always room for more Open source developments if anyone wants to take it beyond the limits of the marking in the SCJD.
How many application servers there are in the world today can be counted on one hand.
Min Huang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 17, 2004
Posts: 100
Morgan, you leave out one other type of person who would go and do the SCJD. And that's the guy who was too dumb to change majors from CS while all his friends embarked on a mass exodus to the business side of the school in an effort to save their GPA's and their sanity; the guy who registered for the exam because he was between jobs and had nothing to do, even though he knew diddly squat about sockets, RMI, swing, and databases; basically, the guy who didn't know what he was getting himself into.
And that's me. The more I work on this project the more I am thinking what a big mistake it was to start it. But, I say, just as I was too dumb to change my major from CS, so shall I be too dumb to quit on this exam! Yes! Dumb determination conquers all!


SCJP 1.4, SCJD 1.4, SCBCD (Preparing!)
Max Habibi
town drunk
( and author)
Sheriff

Joined: Jun 27, 2002
Posts: 4118
I think it's just a matter of how you use it: have a speech ready. If they raise an eyebrow and ask 'SCJD?', have a little shpil ready about what you did, what technologies you dealt with, how such-and-such problem was approached, and how you've been enriched by the experience.
IMO, the SCJD really is the premier software certification available on any platform. It's one thing to take a test that requires memorization. It's another to create a fully functional, if micro-level, application server. Talk about what your experience and growth during the project: chances are, if they don't care, you don't want the job anyway
All best,
M


Java Regular Expressions
Morgan Bath
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 16, 2004
Posts: 196
Originally posted by Max Habibi:
I think it's just a matter of how you use it: have a speech ready. If they raise an eyebrow and ask 'SCJD?', have a little shpil ready about what you did, what technologies you dealt with, how such-and-such problem was approached, and how you've been enriched by the experience.

Yeah I know, and im not trying to drum down business for your book here What Im really saying is that something needs to be done about the industry awareness of this certification. Very few in the industry get past "Sun Certified" when reading your CV. It wouldnt matter if you had programmer or developer certification to them. They really dont know the difference.
Its actually a deeper problem than just SCJD. I had one intervue where I told them I was ready to sit the SCBCD exam next week, and was expecting a score in the 90s. Ten minutes later he asked me if I knew much about enterprise java beans. The intervuer was the head of a department who did nothing but j2ee development.
Rule of thumb:
"I am fully conversant with all aspects of Business Component and Web component development on all major enterprise edition compliant servers." = BAD for CV
"Me know EJB, JSP, Servlets, J2EE, Java real nice!" = GOOD for CV
Whats worse is im guilty of encouraging this. Ive proof read CVs for friends and encouraged them to add these buzz terms. One guy had written one JSP script in his three years in a company and I had him put JSP web component developer as one of his major roles during that time .... cos the job he was looking at was looking for JSP people He didnt even deploy it himself! But now he is a J2EE developer because of it.
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Originally posted by Max Habibi:

IMO, the SCJD really is the premier software certification available on any platform. It's one thing to take a test that requires memorization. It's another to create a fully functional, if micro-level, application server. Talk about what your experience and growth during the project: chances are, if they don't care, you don't want the job anyway
All best,
M

My sentiments exactly. Unfortunately/fortunately ,there's always something new round the corner.
BTW, what's shpil ? Spiel ?
Max Habibi
town drunk
( and author)
Sheriff

Joined: Jun 27, 2002
Posts: 4118
Originally posted by Morgan Bath:

Yeah I know, and im not trying to drum down business for your book here

I hope not: I barely make enough as is!
But seriously, I choose the SCJD as a subject because I think it's uniquely relevant to software developers. it's one thing to talk about writing threading and networking code: it's another to do so. Honestly, I wish SUN would model their other projects along the same lines.

What I'm really saying is that something needs to be done about the industry awareness of this certification.
I agree with you: but I'm pushing it back on you, not SUN. That is, ask not what SUN can do you, ask what you can do for yourself.
If they don't understand what the certification means, then be the guy who explains it to them. Tell them what you've learned. Demonstrate your expertise. Tell them
"I actually been actively studying J2EE architecture, above and beyond this-or-that-specific-detail-that-you-mentioned: It's part of my commitment to self improvement. That's why I take these certification exams...etc"
And yes, add the buzzwords. The fact of the matter is, it can't hurt.
All best,
M
Hari Vignesh Padmanaban
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 07, 2003
Posts: 578
By Andrew
If they know what is involved in SCJD, then they will know that you are versitile enough to learn and sucessfully implement multiple technologies based on vague specifications.

I totally agrree with Andrew..
even though i have 4 certifcations right now, and I have done 2 or 3 big academic projects..I have realised that I have never really implemnted these technologies for building a real time application (Hey isnt that for what these technologoes are for ?;-)
As a person without any industry experience I feel teh SCJD as very valuble for teh following reasons
* It really helps me to write an application right from scratch meaning that I would have to go through teh entire software cycle
* helps me refresh my basics
* Helps me demonstrate teh ability that andrew stated
* give me an overall idea of how a software applciation is developed
* boosts my confidence
As a fresher going into teh software industry(in teh present economy), I am very much sure taht i would not be given a chance to develop an allication from scratch ..So i woudl atleast have afair idea of how a software application woudl have been developed !!!

well having said that, it is apity that recruiters dont really realise teh importance of teh exam .
But personaaly i am satisfied that I was able to build an application (close to real time) from scratch and that i have leanrned a lot and help someone in the process also
Hari
Ian Roberts
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 20, 2003
Posts: 46
Hi,
I think that it really does depend on the country you work in to whether or not any certification is applicable. In the UK, the SCJP is not worth a second glance because those that have done it know that a good three months of studying the Java Specification book (joke) is enough to become a human compiler and those that have not done it simply say its "easy". That is, until they actually try it!
As for the SCJD, most companies in the UK are not even aware that it exists and those that do don't understand how much effort is required to complete the assignment. I decided to do both certifications to force myself into learning areas of Java that are uncommon in the IT environment and, as a architect/designer, it was important that I was very familiar with the right way to do things. I have met Java Developers with 7 years experience but very little knowledge or understanding about the language - never mind OOP or OOAD.
My personal view is that the SCJD should include and insist upon a design document with supporting UML diagrams. I know that the SCEA covers UML but that is at a different level from a different perspective. Most developers (i.e. the new word for Analyst/Programmer) should know a OOAD methodology, preferably using UML. That is that too many don't and some have the SCJP and SCJD certifications!
Saying that, I am a fan of the SCJP, SCJD and SCEA. Recently I have been interviewing application architects, designers and senior developers and the odd one that had a certification was surprised that I recognised the achievement - apparently, most UK companies don't even know what they stand for! As I know the effort that goes into the certifications, in my view, it does help them through the interview because I have some understanding of their technical ability.
The fact is, most people don't know the effort. A colleague of mine (a senior architect) said that the SCEA certification was not as good as it sounds but, based upon some of the decisions that have been made, my believe is that if the individuals making the major decisions had had the certification some of the major mistakes may have been avoided. By the way, the senior architect did not have the SCEA!
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
If it's any comfort there are 66 countries represented in some way in the SCJD Dallas Group. Could this be a selling point in the UK or anywhere else ?
Flags from Our Members' Homeland

Homeland can be interpreted as the country/place you live/work, or the country/place you are from, or the country/place your family rooted. Ordered by ISO3166 codes.
Ian Roberts
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 20, 2003
Posts: 46
I don't think a the SCJD Dallas Group will have any effect on the current ignorance amongst employers in the UK regarding the values of certification. Not all employers disregard Sun certifications but it the majority rather than the minority.
Personally, I am hoping this will change because the certification process brings a huge amount of benefit to individuals and employers. I honestly believe that certification is becoming more important within the UK but the increase in certification demand is very slow.
Fred Grott
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 05, 2002
Posts: 346
Since we obviously need to raise awareness and not Wait for SUN..or its setting down on technology for that mattter..
Could we not use a opensource project to somehow rasie the awareness?


MobileBytes blog - Sharing Technology - My Programming Knols
Billy Tsai
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 23, 2003
Posts: 1297
SCJD was pretty hard IMH , it took me 1 month to complete.
and i think it has some special meaning to it. having all the sun microsystems Java certification+few years of experience will definitely make u stand out.
By the way I need SCMAD and OCM(Oracle certified Master) but OCM will probably take me another 6 months to get, SCMAD will take 1 month i think .


BEA 8.1 Certified Administrator, IBM Certified Solution Developer For XML 1.1 and Related Technologies, SCJP, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCDJWS, SCJD, SCEA,
Oracle Certified Master Java EE 5 Enterprise Architect
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Originally posted by Fred Grott:
Since we obviously need to raise awareness and not Wait for SUN..or its setting down on technology for that mattter..
Could we not use a opensource project to somehow rasie the awareness?

I think the idea has been applied here :-
This book will suit you well if you're planning an MVC Java project and want to take advantage of open-source packages. --David Wall
"The premise of the book is to take the "Pet Store" and improve it by using several open source tools. The first part of the book discusses each of the tools with brief explanations and sample code. The second part takes us through the development process showing how to use the tools that were discussed earlier." --Thomas Paul
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
My advice to the majority would be to just do the SCJD in a nice place like this one or the SCJD Dallas Group. Open source is for thick-skinned protagonists with great big egos and one may not want to work with some of those geezers day in and day out. Keep it nice.
For those who have neither the required skin thickness or ego to hack it in Open Source Environments or the inclination to write a production-level APP server , better off buying the Open Source books and having a go,IMHO.
JBoss Books
On the other hand one of the nicest technical managers I know writes production app server code, so one could get lucky and work in a nice nurturing environment.
[ March 30, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Dave Knipp
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 14, 2003
Posts: 146
Having read everyone's responses, i tend to agree with you all.
First the SCJD is well underrecognized, I know people who have considered the cert after taking their programmers, but decided against taking it b/c it isnt worth the time or the recognition. (ie. our company wanted a different certification before the scjd)
Personally, i agree that the scjd provides a great deal of value to anyone who takes it. It requires you to actually implement and develop a real life project instead of regurgitating information in a testing center. Yes, i do this as well, but i enjoy developing a solution so much more.
This in fact is the oldest catch 22, experience vs. knowledge. Recruiters want experience, but they also want know how. In the long run they tend to lean toward experience for the obvious reasons, b/c its what they know and can rely on.
This is where the SCJD exam comes in. If you want to show that you have experience and the proof of knowledge that comes with a certification title then take the SCJD, it gives you both. Just make sure you sell your title as a java developer, not just as a certification, but as real world experience.
Also, my vote is that sun should make a certification for java recruiters like mentioned above. GO SJCR!!!
Dave


SCJP 1.4, SCJD 1.4, SCWCD 1.3, SCBCD 1.3, IBM Certified Solution Developer -WebSphere Studio V5.0
Claus Ibsen
author
Greenhorn

Joined: Apr 01, 2004
Posts: 18
Originally posted by Morgan Bath:
...
Whats worse is im guilty of encouraging this. Ive proof read CVs for friends and encouraged them to add these buzz terms. One guy had written one JSP script in his three years in a company and I had him put JSP web component developer as one of his major roles during that time .... cos the job he was looking at was looking for JSP people He didnt even deploy it himself! But now he is a J2EE developer because of it.

And you wonder why they start moving jobs off-shore? If a guy who had written one .jsp page in his life is hired as a J2EE developer???
I have been working in off-shore locations and I can tell that there are plenty of guys to choose who knows more .jsp.
So I recon we have to keep learning to stay ahead. And one of the process is all these damm certifications from SUN. Even the off-shore developers can pass them. They are very used to this exam of multi-choice. They just do alot of these simulators and can pass in the 60-80% range after a few tries.
/Claus


Claus Ibsen
Apache Camel Committer

Author of Camel in Action: http://www.manning.com/ibsen/
Open Source Integration: http://fusesource.com
Blog: http://davsclaus.blogspot.com/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/davsclaus
Morgan Bath
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 16, 2004
Posts: 196
Off-shore?
Claus Ibsen
author
Greenhorn

Joined: Apr 01, 2004
Posts: 18
Originally posted by Morgan Bath:
Off-shore?

Yeah what was the correct english term for doing development in the far east - outsource?
Well anyway it was in China.
/Claus
Mark Vedder
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 17, 2003
Posts: 624

Originally posted by Claus Ibsen:

Even the off-shore developers can pass them. They are very used to this exam of multi-choice. They just do alot of these simulators and can pass in the 60-80% range after a few tries.
/Claus

So what you are saying is that these developers are neither learning Java nor proving their knowledge of Java but rather proving they get better at guessing. In other words they become better test takers (learning what "tricks" to look out for in questions.) In my humble opinion, this is why there should be a mandatory (and significant) waiting period between attempts at a cert exam; and that waiting period should get progressively longer after the 2nd or 3rd try � say after attempt number 3 you cannot retake it for a year.
The practice of "keep guessing until you pass" you mention also illustrates the shortcomings of a multiple-choice exam. I recall that either Kathy or Bert made a post about how the 1.5 exam is going to start moving away from multiple-choice questions for this reason. I believe they indicated some of the questions would be similar to the "Code Magnets" problems in Head First Java. (Unfortunately, despite a couple of searches, I cannot find the thread in which that was discussed.)
This practice is also a good reason why I personally think the SCJD exam carries more weight and prestige; you cannot guess your way through coding an application. Unfortunately, Morgan is probably correct that this is not well understood among most business managers, who too often do the hiring rather then technical leads/managers.
Lastly, I do have to agree that the resume padding practice Morgan alludes to is also wrong. Just because someone knows what an Acronym stands for doesn't mean he's an expert in that area and he should not be putting it on his resume/CV -- as far too may people do. Having worked with a couple of "I read part of an article on that once and so I'm a self-proclaimed expert" programmers, such a practice not only hurts the hiring company, but your new teammates, and that will end up hurting you in the end. Word of mouth is powerful and the programming community (especially within a city or geo) is ultimately not that big.
Morgan Bath
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 16, 2004
Posts: 196
Originally posted by Claus Ibsen:

Yeah what was the correct english term for doing development in the far east - outsource?
Well anyway it was in China.
/Claus

Guess it depends where you are To me you are the off-shore worker!
Mcgill Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 11, 2003
Posts: 178
IMO SUN should have a J2EE (JSP/SERVLET/EJB/JDBC)certtification , something like SCJD.And call it J2EE Developer Certification.


Regards
Mcgill
Rhys Bridges
Greenhorn

Joined: Apr 25, 2004
Posts: 2
I agree. Something like SCJD but an end to end (Client Tier to Persistence Tier) project would be ideal. The thing is, the SCEA exam already goes a long way towards that in terms of taking requirements through to an architectural design.
It would be nice if Sun introduced a certification that gives a candidate the architectural design for a 3 or 4 tier applciation and then required the candidate to build and deploy it, leaving it up the candidate to sort out things like the gory details of state management, DB connection pooling, etc.
SCJD is a non-trivial exercise. I think it's tough to get a good score because you have to think about details like object locking, threading, patterns, etc while also learning enough about Swing (if you don't have much experience with it) to produce a good-looking and function GUI.
SCEA requires a lot more than API knowledge because you're expected to know how the various tiers of an application should fit together and the pros and cons of various approaches. You're expected to show wisdom as well as knowledge.
If Sun introduced an exam like Sun Certified Enterprise Developer (SCED) that gave the candidate the basic plot vis-a-vis design plus some already completed code to extend or modify then I'm sure this would be useful and credible with employers.
They could continue with the Fly-by-Nite theme, but I'd suggest that for maximum impact (especially with recruiters) the application should be something related to recruitment. Something like a simple recruitment website, for example. Or a personal interactive site for management of training and certification. Something that can be demonstrated to an employer remotely at interview with a web-browser and something that that is easy for an employer to interview about if they wish to do so.


Rhys
SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCMAD, SCEA, IBM 486
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: SCJD is the worthless lazy bum of the family?
 
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