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what the the scjd value in the market today?

Lucas Azzhar
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 02, 2006
Posts: 12
Hey, are all of you guys good?
Well.. I'm wishing to take SCJD or SCMAD... but I'm a little bit confused which one should I take first... so, I'm not very well prepared taking SCMAD for now... but I do wanna get another Java Certification. I wanna know what is the value of SCJD in the job market today? I mean, java web certifications seem to be more valuable than this one.. I don't know.. I would like to have the oppinion of you guys and tell me some points which I think would help me a lot in following such step. I mean, what is positive in SCJD in a comparisson to another Java certification?
Thank very very much!

Best regards!

Lucas
Jeroen T Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 21, 2006
Posts: 1847
If you're pursueing certifications mainly as resume stuffing you're doing it for all the wrong reasons.

Do it for the knowledge gained most of all, and the satisfaction of a job well done.

That said, no certification has any real value on its own. It's the work experience backing it up that gives them value.
You might have SCEA but if you can't show experience as an enterprise architect to back it up I'd shove it aside unless there was noone else who does have experience applying for the job.
Same with other certs.


42
Lucas Azzhar
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 02, 2006
Posts: 12
yeah.. you're right.. we need to take certifications just for learning and having a good idea about this technology you're applying specifically.

Good point!

See ya.. and thank you again

Lucas
hatim osman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 10, 2005
Posts: 105
Hi there...

There is no doubt about the remarks you made Jeroen. However, this question may really have another answer if one did really gain knowledge from achieving the SCJD. For instance, I have been certified as a SCJD recently, and truly that was a wonderful experience and I did indeed learn alot from doing the project.
But it seems like the developer certification is less popular than other web certifications. However, I think that the developer certification is very important and necessary in order to write good web application code. I have met alot of java web developers who have poor understanding of the SDK and standalone application, which is to some extend and somehow may be unexpected and some may take take it extreme and consider it shameful. Go ahead Lucas, this certification makes you learn java well, which I think is the starting point and the door to more specialized certification.

Best Wishes
Hatim O. Khalifa
(SCJP2)(SCJD1.4)
Jeroen T Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 21, 2006
Posts: 1847
yes, way too many people never do anything except basic servlets and JSPs and call themselves "enterprise Java developers".
Just check out the number of questions in the servlet and ejb forums here and at Sun's that anyone with a basic understanding of the language should be able to answer without having to think about it.
Dibbo Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 19, 2004
Posts: 147
Cert exams are very good to for disciplining you and forcing you to study to learn a particular subject.

But their ultimate purpose is to increase your marketability and they can be good for this but not sufficient.

It depends the EJB 2.0 cert is not that useful since there are many experienced EJB Developers, however if the EJB 3.0 cert comes out while the technology is in its infancy, then the cert might have alot of market value since you will stand out more.

Experience trumps certs, but in the lack of experience, certs are a very good way to increase marketability.

I think the SCMAD is a very good cert since it is very rare to hold, the only thing I have against the SCJD is that there is no JEE element to it.

Good luck with your studies.


MCPD (Enterprise Application Developer, Windows Developer, Web Developer - .NET 2.0), MCTS (Windows Apps, Web Apps and Disbributed Applications - .NET 2.0), MCITP (Database Developer & Business Intelligence Developer - SQL Server 2005), MCAD, MSCD.net, SCJP 5, SCWCD 1.4, SCBCD, SCMAD, SCDJWS, SCJA
Dibbo Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 19, 2004
Posts: 147
One more point,

I have seen many poor CVs that exagerate alot. However the cert guarantees a minimum of knowledge and the fact that you are not totally misrepresenting yourself. Many recruiters can be sceptical in England.

However what is far more is claiming alot of technical knowledge wtihout either certs or experience or the knowledge itself.

Visual Studio 2005 came out in Novemember 2005 and by December of last year many people were claiming C# 2005 experience, obviously not everyone was being truthful.

However I aim to acquire the C# 2.0 (C# 2005) certifications within 6 months so that I can demonstrate that I am not misrepresenting myself and have a reasonable degree of knowledge in the material.

So certs frequently validate knowledge instead of seeming empty as some claim. In my experience many people who denigrate certification have none of their own.
Jeroen T Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 21, 2006
Posts: 1847
certs don't guarantee any knowledge, sad but true.
Many can be gained by cramming for an exam for a few days or weeks, which leads to retention in memory for just long enough to pass the exam.

A few months later if the person never applied that knowledge to gain long term retention he'll have forgotten all or most of it.

I'd rather have someone in a junior position who has a single cert and a few months experience in the subject than someone with a dozen certs who's never used any of the knowledge he claims to have.
He likely has none of it anymore.
Dibbo Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 19, 2004
Posts: 147
Unfortunatley,

Nothing guarantees knowledge. Experience is not equivalent, a year of hard core work (Reflection and the like) is much better than three years of noddy JSP pages.

What the certs mean in the absence of experience is that you were able to learn the material once and can probably do so again and that is much better than not having them.

I think the SCJP is hard and not easily crammable, what you do think about it, how was it when you took it???
Jeroen T Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 21, 2006
Posts: 1847
Many people successfully passed SCJP 1.2 and 1.4 by just cramming a few weeks.
There were even special courses for it I've heard. Shut some people in a room with a teacher for a week and at the end bus them all to Prometric to take the exam.

1.5 was designed to make that harder, not sure if they succeeded in that.

I've always been terribly inept at cramming stuff, causing me to fail some exams designed to pass only those who can cram.
SCJP wasn't that bad, but close.
Manuel Comnenus
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 26, 2006
Posts: 86
Whether or not certification exams demonstrate "knowledge" or provide "experience" is a subject that can probably be debated forever.

I write the next remarks at the risk of stating something awkwardly and unintentionally offending someone, yet I think that it is important to take that risk.

This is a forum, I think, to support people with the goals of preparing for and passing the SCJD. Apart from these common goals, we all have different experiences and different motives for taking the exam. Let's reflect again on why are taking the exam. If our purpose is to increase our value, whether it is to others or to ourselves, are we doing so by denigrating the value of the exam or holders of the certification?

I will argue that a certification or a series of certifications can demonstrate something that goes far beyond specific technical knowledge. They can measure discipline, motivation, ability to learn and work independently, and a bunch of other intangibles. And these intangibles are things that employers want.

Regarding the SCJP 5, it is a difficult exam and anyone who has passed it has a right to feel that it is a measure of something they have accomplished. One has to know a lot of Java in order to pass it and, the test is not a simple memory test. Many of the problems measure our ability to learn disparate pieces of information and our ability to synthesize that information. We are tested on whether we understand what we have learned.

Steve
Dibbo Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 19, 2004
Posts: 147
Why don't you list your SCJP 5.0 then like everyone else does??? You should be proud of your certs.
Manuel Comnenus
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 26, 2006
Posts: 86
Hi Dibbo,

I am proud of earning the certification. At the same time, I realize that my accomplishment is rather humble compared both to yours and to many other ranchers. Maybe I will list my certs at some point in the future. For now, I just want to focus on how I can benefit from the experiences and wisdom that people share here.

Thanks,
Steve
B Chen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 27, 2005
Posts: 89
Originally posted by Lucas Azzhar:
what is positive in SCJD in a comparisson to another Java certification?


The SCJD is different from all other Sun Java certification (except maybe SCEA) because it is harder to just "study" for the exam. You really need some work experience as a software developer or engineer to complete the assignment. All the other certification can be achieved by people with little/no experience with only a few weeks/months of cramming.


SCJD<br />SCJP 1.4
hatim osman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 10, 2005
Posts: 105
Hi there

I am impressed by this thread. You guys have alot of enlightening views. Well, I am really having hard time finding a job right now. I am very good at what I do now, but every job listing I see demanded an extensive JSP and Servlet experience. It mat very tempting to jump right away into SCWCD Certification. But I prefered to learn the technoligies very well before attempting that. I agree, there are some courses now that offer training for the SCJP certification, the sad thing is that the instructors in charge of these courses teach in a way that I may say "very exam oriented". And that's the reason behind why alot of people are capable of becoming certified.
Dibbo Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 19, 2004
Posts: 147
Where do you live hatim??? Is that a difficult market for Java right now??? What is the extent of your IT experience (time and skills)???

I think the SCWCD could give you an edge to get a job, of course try and learn as much as you can so that you can do a good job during the interview.

I don't just advocate getting certified, but also learning as much as you can reasonably learn about a technology.

But if you need a job soon, then I advocate getting SCWCD certified as soon as you can and then keep on reading and trying out things so you are strong for interviews. Interviews don't roll in immediately, so I advise getting certified and then adding to your knowledge.
Jeroen T Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 21, 2006
Posts: 1847
personally, though I'm proud of having passed the exam (1.4 in my case) I am not prone to bragging about it.
Not that that's on the mind of everyone who lists his accomplishments, but it can be construed as such by others and I don't want that.

It's like appearing in a suit and tie every day because that makes you look expensive or "professional", rather than dressing comfortably. The one tries to impress people with outward appearances, the other just wants recognition for what he does.
Peter Sin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 13, 2005
Posts: 547
For those who know, SCJD means Sun Certified Java developer.
For those who don't know, SCJD means SCJD just 4 letters.

Today not many employers respect certifications.
Peer Reynders
Bartender

Joined: Aug 19, 2005
Posts: 2922
    
    5
Originally posted by Dibbo Khan:
Visual Studio 2005 came out in November 2005 and by December of last year many people were claiming C# 2005 experience, obviously not everyone was being truthful.


I had my paws on the Visual Studio 2005 Express Beta 1 in November 2004 - and many MSDN Universal subscribers had access to more long before that.
Then again, you are correct - many applicant's exaggerate their experience.
Lucas Azzhar
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 02, 2006
Posts: 12
yeah.. certification helps a lot.. but i do prefer to evaluate in candidates grades at University, experience in some software projects and many other characteristics that, together with java certifications, can help the employeer to find a very good clerk for its company in the future. Of course, SCJP wont cover all Java API's...for example... there's no certification that covers Java Sound, Java Video or Java 3D API's... And even if you get all java certifications.. if you dont have any experience in a successful project.. your chances will be dimmed if you be unlucky to make a disputation with a senior experienced software developer... 'cause he understands what the clients want! So, certification is more for learning than for the title we get in that instance... Companies will check out that he had the inicitiave for learning for being more prepared and I do thing that it counts much more than the certification for itself...
Jeroen T Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 21, 2006
Posts: 1847
Originally posted by Peer Reynders:


I had my paws on the Visual Studio 2005 Express Beta 1 in November 2004 - and many MSDN Universal subscribers had access to more long before that.
Then again, you are correct - many applicant's exaggerate their experience.


Then again, many employers exaggerate their requirements as well.
Windows 2000 was released in the autumn of 1999.
By late that year I noticed a job opening published that required 10 years experience in the administration of Windows 2000 networks.

In 1999 I saw an ad for a job requiring 10 years Java experience of which at least 5 with Servlets and JSP.
Peer Reynders
Bartender

Joined: Aug 19, 2005
Posts: 2922
    
    5
Originally posted by Jeroen T Wenting:
Then again, many employers exaggerate their requirements as well.

There is a long tradition of that. I can just about remember job postings requiring 5 years of X-Windows experience - 6 months after it "escaped".
Bob Nedwor
hangman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 17, 2005
Posts: 215

I agree with B Chen. The Sun Certified Java Developer Exam stands out as being unique because you have to prove that you can build something from scratch, submit proper documentation, create a user guide, support design decisions and handle ambiguous/conflicting user requirements!!! -- all real world stuff -- rather than memorize information and answer multiple choice questions. Don't get me wrong. The other tests are valuable and do prove that you know the material. But the SCJDeveloper proves that you can USE the material.

After I passed the SCJP, I was also tempted to run to the seemingly more popular SCWCD. I purchased K&B's award-winning "Head First Servlets & JSPs" and had Tomcat installed on my sun box. I was in "web app" heaven.

But then I had an interesting conversation with a well respected developer-manager here where I work who convinced me to take the SCJD first. I am so glad I listened to him because I learned so much more about real-world Java programming. Otherwise, I would have never had to learn Swing as well I have in this project. Also, using RMI will help me later if/when I ever get to EJBs. After the SCJP, I had a good enough understanding of threads and synchronization to pass that test, but actually building a multi-user client-server app that needs this technology has provided me with an infinitely better comfort level of Threads and synchronization.

I think everyone should read the SCJDeveloper FAQ for the best answer to this topic. I found it very useful...I think the answer to the original question is: "it depends on where you are at now and where you want to go." If you are like me, and you want to be a Java Developer someday, and you only have 3 months of "paid" experience coding in your life, then it is a no brainer - take this SCJD now!
[ May 17, 2006: Message edited by: Bob Nedwor ]

Bob N
SCJP - 1.4
SCJD - (B&S) Used 1.5 And It Runs On Solaris10
SCWCD - Thanks to HFSJ!!
hatim osman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 10, 2005
Posts: 105
Hi everybody

You are right Bob. That's what I first thought. To be a "Real" Java Developer, then it's expected that you know how to use java well. I am currently in Africa and Sudan particulary. The scaricty of Java based companies here makes it harder for me to learn the more advanced technologies by means of training or entry-level jobs. I've mostly done standalone projects, and it is clear to me that the term programming now resembles more to Web Programming, which is the reason why SCWCD Certification is more popular now. Thus, it's a transitional stage for me. Each and every openning I saw required an experience in JSP, Servlets, Hibernate, Ant, Apache and you know the rest of the list. I will look into your thoughts Debbo, it's always good to learn from real Developers like you.

Hatim O. Khalifa
(SCJP2)(SCJD1.4)
Jeroen T Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 21, 2006
Posts: 1847
Doesn't really matter what's hyped at the moment.
Myself I expect a move back from web applications towards lightweight clients in a client/server environment soon and that move may already be underway.
Web applications sound nice but they're overused, abused I'd even say, for things they're really not suitable for.

As customers and developers get that into their heads they'll start to decline again.

And having SCJD experience will serve you well even writing webapps.
It's real coding compared to theoretical politically correct statements about how the world SHOULD work according to some comittee in an ivory tower.
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
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