aspose file tools*
The moose likes Ranch Office and the fly likes May I know why post has been deleted ? Big Moose Saloon
  Search | Java FAQ | Recent Topics | Flagged Topics | Hot Topics | Zero Replies
Register / Login
JavaRanch » Java Forums » This Site » Ranch Office
Bookmark "May I know why post has been deleted ?" Watch "May I know why post has been deleted ?" New topic
Author

May I know why post has been deleted ?

R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Again I was thinking to post it in JR but ... I am posting here... as it is related to MD not to JR site.
I just want to know the reason why it has been deleted?
And as I have said, I would like to defend myself. Be sure I wont repeat a word from that post.
May I know the reason ??
Cindy Glass
"The Hood"
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 29, 2000
Posts: 8521
It was a war post.
I sent you an e-mail.


"JavaRanch, where the deer and the Certified play" - David O'Meara
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Cindy Glass:
It was a war post.



AW waiting for your mail....
I wish we could discuss this in open.
Angela Poynton
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 02, 2000
Posts: 3143
We decided that since some people here (albeit a minority) couldn't discuss the war without turning the conversation into another war of the flame kind that for the time being we were not going to allow such discussions to take place!
There are plenty of other more appropriate discussion forums on the net where I'm sure you can share your thoughts/opinions.


Pounding at a thick stone wall won't move it, sometimes, you need to step back to see the way around.
Cindy Glass
"The Hood"
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 29, 2000
Posts: 8521
Actually I just moved it over to MO, I didn't delete it.
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Angela Poynton:
...There are plenty of other more appropriate discussion forums on the net where I'm sure you can share your thoughts/opinions.

Hahahaahaahaahahaahahaahaahahaaahaaaaah
Do you know why am I laughing ?
Ask Jason ;)
[Edited to disable the smiley]
[ April 03, 2003: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]
Sameer Jamal
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 16, 2001
Posts: 1870
Originally posted by Angela Poynton:

There are plenty of other more appropriate discussion forums on the net where I'm sure you can share your thoughts/opinions.

But there are no Jason Menard and Thomas Paul to counter argue your posts in other forums
shay Aluko
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 01, 2002
Posts: 167
I think it is an abuse of priviledge for entire posts/threads to be deleted just becaused they are not "nice". We live in a real world, the world is not nice, so far as there are ground rules, there should be no need to to delete posts or threads or suchlike. Deleting posts is no different from censorship. We should not be ostriches and bury our heads in the ground. This forum will fast lose its credibility if arbitrary rules are being applied as to what should be in this forum and what should not be.
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

Originally posted by shay Aluko:
I think it is an abuse of priviledge for entire posts/threads to be deleted just becaused they are not "nice". We live in a real world, the world is not nice, so far as there are ground rules, there should be no need to to delete posts or threads or suchlike. Deleting posts is no different from censorship. We should not be ostriches and bury our heads in the ground. This forum will fast lose its credibility if arbitrary rules are being applied as to what should be in this forum and what should not be.

Moderating is not a privilege; it is a responsibility, complete with guidelines for how we would like to see it done.
We do live in a real world. MD, however, strives neither to be real or worldly. Posts that bring the real world into MD and make it other than meaningless or drivelly should, in our opinion, find homes elsewhere.
Deleting posts is a form of censorship, I suppose, if you consider this forum in the service of informing the public. As I see it, MD is a wasteland of lame programmer humor, links to really fascinating websites, and email jokes reprinted as if we've never seen them. Oh sure, occasionally we get reports of two-year old train wrecks and superhero trivia, but on the whole we like things nice because these people really don't understand the depth of their drab, wretched existences. It's just good manners to delete posts that raise false hopes among these people by giving them "significant" things to think about.
If you think this forum has credibility or should have it, then you have missed its intended purpose.
[ April 03, 2003: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]
[ April 03, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]

Make visible what, without you, might perhaps never have been seen.
- Robert Bresson
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
There are those of us (moderators) who enjoy seeing more serious discussions in MD and would like for that to continue as much as possible. However the site is primarily for discussion of Java, and is intended to be friendly. MD is an outlet for non-Java stuff, but still needs to be friendly. A totally uncensored forum is just not going to happen, as there are plenty on the internet which get way too unfriendly for us; we don't want that here. Unfortunately there's considerable variation in what people consider "friendly" or not - where do we draw the line? This ends up being a lot of work and discussion for us, and we are after all volunteers. The more work it is for us to keep things from getting out of hand, the more we lean towards simpler solutions like banning serious discussions entirely.
We should not be ostriches and bury our heads in the ground.
Strongly agreed - but that doesn't mean we're obligated to field all discussions here. I urge everyone to seek out a wide range of alternate news sources, for example - even while you're shocked at how "wrong" they may be, you're learning something about why other people are believing and behaving the way they do. This is good. And I like the idea that the Ranch might contribute to some extent in this process - but it's far from our main purpose, and can easily become contrary to it. I wish that weren't the case, but it is.


"I'm not back." - Bill Harding, Twister
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by shay Aluko:
I think it is an abuse of priviledge for entire posts/threads to be deleted just becaused they are not "nice". We live in a real world, the world is not nice, so far as there are ground rules, there should be no need to to delete posts or threads or suchlike. Deleting posts is no different from censorship. We should not be ostriches and bury our heads in the ground. This forum will fast lose its credibility if arbitrary rules are being applied as to what should be in this forum and what should not be.


Why would a forum about Java lose its credibility for not allowing discussion about war? Do you think java.sun.com allows discussions about the war?


Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
Krish Pat
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 31, 2002
Posts: 32
I dont intend to sound like a smart aleck,but who decides which thread stays and which gets deleted? One mans poison can be another mans nectar.
Granted offensive threads do need to be removed, but instaed of one or two people making the decision,if a democratic view can be obtained, wouldnt that serve better? After all MD is Meaningless Drivel and not My Domain.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Why would it be better? Better for whom? Why does the owner of this site have to put up to a vote what is being stored on the server that he pays for?
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Why would it be better? Better for whom? Why does the owner of this site have to put up to a vote what is being stored on the server that he pays for?

I call this TP style reply.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:
I call this TP style reply.
I am asking a serious question. Do you think JavaRanch should be an open forum where things should only be removed by majority rule? If so, why do you think that would make JavaRanch a better place? We have been asking these questions among ourselves and if anyone has a good answer I would like to hear it.
Matthew Phillips
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 09, 2001
Posts: 2676
Originally posted by Krish Pat:
After all MD is Meaningless Drivel and not My Domain.

Actually, it is "My Domain" to Paul Wheaton. Since he pays the bills, he gets to decide what he wants to go on. He has decided to entrust a select group of people to enforce his decision. I haven't heard him second guess anyone yet.


Matthew Phillips
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
I dont intend to sound like a smart aleck,but who decides which thread stays and which gets deleted? One mans poison can be another mans nectar.
True. Ultimately, it's the MD moderator, plus any interested sheriffs, who have the authority and responsibiilty to decide where the line is. Hopefully aided by some better guidelines.
Granted offensive threads do need to be removed, but instaed of one or two people making the decision,if a democratic view can be obtained, wouldnt that serve better? After all MD is Meaningless Drivel and not My Domain.
Well, there are certainly limits to how much democracy could be usefully implemented here. We can't exactly wait until everyone votes before deleting a given thread, if our objective is to keep unfriendly discussion off the ranch. By the time the votes are in everyone's already pissed off. By its very nature, censorship is going to be autocratic. I'd like to establish better guidelines for how and when it occurs, and I'd like the MD users to have some means of redress if they feel they're being treated unfairly by us. And feedback from other MD posters will be taken into consideration, and guidelines may be changed over time depending on the feedback we get and how well they work. But ultimately it will boil down to a small group of people making most of these decisions, and the basic options for the majority are either (1) accept that, or (2) find another site you'd rather spend time at. We have an incentive to try to keep people interested in coming to the site, that will hopefully limit us from abusing our powers too much. If not, well, it will start to get really quiet around here.
shay Aluko
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 01, 2002
Posts: 167
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Why would it be better? Better for whom? Why does the owner of this site have to put up to a vote what is being stored on the server that he pays for?

Quite right that someone pays the bills, but let's face it javaranch has grown tremendously and i would argue that it is bigger than anyone person's domain now. I suggest a rating system where we can vote to delete threads -- that at least has the semblance of majority agreement.
Michael Morris
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 30, 2002
Posts: 3451
Then you can help spread democracy at the Ranch here Tip Jar.


Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction. - Ernst F. Schumacher
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Voting is an interesting idea...
I'll start a new thread, though.


Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
John Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 08, 2001
Posts: 2937
Originally posted by shay Aluko:

I suggest a rating system where we can vote to delete threads -- that at least has the semblance of majority agreement.

That would not work, Shay. Since 70% of people support the war, and 30% are against it, all your anti-war posts may be deleted. Voting, as a democratic process, shouldn't apply to freedom of speech. When I speak, I should not fear that if "the majority" disagrees with me, I will be sensored.
Eugene.
shay Aluko
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 01, 2002
Posts: 167
Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:

That would not work, Shay. Since 70% of people support the war, and 30% are against it, all your anti-war posts may be deleted. Voting, as a democratic process, shouldn't apply to freedom of speech. When I speak, I should not fear that if "the majority" disagrees with me, I will be sensored.
Eugene.

Actually, it will. why?, because we either agree to delete a thread or leave it. We cannot delete individual posts. If the 70% that are against the war (i am not even sure of the provenance of that statistic) want to delete a thread, then they do not get to express themselves too.
paul wheaton
Trailboss

Joined: Dec 14, 1998
Posts: 20635
    ∞

Censorship: freedom of the press belongs to those that own one.


permaculture Wood Burning Stoves 2.0 - 4-DVD set
John Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 08, 2001
Posts: 2937

Censorship: freedom of the press belongs to those that own one.

So, as the owner of this site, do you subscribe to this principle?
Eugene.
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
Since Paul's the one who said it, I think it's reasonable to infer that yes, he believes it. That's not to say that he doesn't prefer to keep the censorship an minimal as possible (given the "friendly place" goal), but fundamentally, he's under no obligation to publish everything that participants here feel like printing. The main thing limiting him here (other than the fact that he's basically a very nice and laid-back guy) is that he doesn't want to drive people away from the site. Of course, that's also the main argument for censoring some of these conversations - we're trying to find a balance that will be comfortable for the majority of people who might be interested in using this site.
[ April 03, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by shay Aluko:

Actually, it will. why?, because we either agree to delete a thread or leave it. We cannot delete individual posts. If the 70% that are against the war (i am not even sure of the provenance of that statistic) want to delete a thread, then they do not get to express themselves too.

So if I want to get a thread deleted all I have to do is act obnoxious and hostile until 51% of the people get sick of me?
David O'Meara
Rancher

Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 13459

Only in purely internal matters.
Otherwise it requires a two thirds majority.
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I am asking a serious question. .....

When I say TP style, I mean TP style.
I am also serious, why cant one stop reminding everyone that they dont own this site.
I know it that I dont own this site.
I know it that I am not even worth of 10 cent as per this site. Because even if I want neither I can donate nor I can buy any ranch stuff.
I dont generate any revenue.
Why one need to tell everyone everytime that this site is owned by someone else and he is worthless for this site.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:
Why one need to tell everyone everytime that this site is owned by someone else and he is worthless for this site.

I never said you are worthless! In fact, Ravish, javaranch wouldn't be the same without you. All I'm reminding you is that you don't get to make the decisions about the Ranch. Certainly, Paul takes everyone's opinion into account but at the end of the day Paul is paying the bills so he gets to decide.
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
....Paul is paying the bills so he gets to decide.

If there is demonstration that Bill Cliton go down, you are sex maniac. It is after all Bill Clinton and his govt. , who will decide whether Bill should go or not.
But demonstrators need not to be reminded that they dont have any power.
He knows it very well that he does not have any power and thats why he is crying or shouting or pleading.
John Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 08, 2001
Posts: 2937
Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:

If there is demonstration that Bill Cliton go down, you are sex maniac.

Who, me? The sex maniac? As a good citizen of Eastern US, I have sex 3 times a week in a missionary position. Incidentally, Bill Clinton does get on my nerve, and I demonstrate against his presidency very often. Hopefully, he will be impeached or something...
Eugene.
Balaji Loganathan
author and deputy
Bartender

Joined: Jul 13, 2001
Posts: 3150
Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:

I have sex 3 times a week in a missionary position.
Eugene.

Only 3 times a week!... Pity you


Spritle Software Blogs
Cindy Glass
"The Hood"
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 29, 2000
Posts: 8521
Sorry folks - but I just don't GET it.
Should I get a vote on what CNN reports just based on the fact that I watch it everyday and "i would argue that it is bigger than anyone person's domain now'? Just try to tell CNN that :roll: .
They base their decisions on what THEY think the general viewing audience wants to see - but they certainly do NOT let the general viewing audience have ANY say so about individual items to be reported. Sheesh what a nightmare THAT would be.
Or perhaps my Mutual Fund company should let us VOTE on what stocks to purchase. After all, I have some of my real money invested in those funds. Wouldn't THAT work out well :roll: .
Stop and THINK about what you are suggesting. There are 48,000 registered members. Some no longer participate - but WE sure as heck don't have the manpower to track on such stuff.
Besides the fact that you are asking for something that you have no moral right to ask for, who in their right mind would decide to spend their precious spare time devoted to enabling such a thing.
Frankly the suggestion is so "off the wall" that I can not believe that you are asking it with a straight face.
paul wheaton
Trailboss

Joined: Dec 14, 1998
Posts: 20635
    ∞

I'm a mean and nasty bastard who has this site just so I can delete stuff.

    Home, home on the range
    Where the deer and the antelope play
    Where seldom is heard a discouraging word
    And the skies are not cloudy all day

    I want this to be a friendly place for java greenhorns. When I've had a stressful day, I like the idea of a few minutes in this forum to think about stuff other than engineering. I like the jokes (even if I have read them before), and once in a while I like to think about more serious stuff. But I don't like seeing folks getting mad and saying unkind things to each other.
    Since 9/11, we've been getting some folks saying unkind things to each other. And sometimes it gets out of hand.
    So I guess I want two things:

    • friendly
    • people can talk about anything they want

    • The second one gets tricky. It turns out that there are some laws about what you can say. For example, it is against the law for anybody to say they want to kill the president.
      Another thing is that I think there are some topics that I would really rather not see here, but I doubt that the decent folk that come here would want to bring it up anyway.
      Suppose we were to, say, talk about the war? Lots of strong opinions there. And some people can get really mad. That leads to less than friendly talk.
      My original thought was that since we're a bunch of engineers and we have the ability to take our time saying what we want, we can make our point in a calm and peaceful way. After all, reason and logic is what we do all day, right? This does seem to work most of the time.
      I started a thread on "personal attacks" and another on "fallacy" so we might get a better understanding of how to avoid less than friendly discussion. A few nice folks participated in those threads. But, I'm sorry to say, things didn't improve much.
      Currently we have a ban on heavy topics and this is working.
      So we're thinking about all sorts of ideas to see what might be the best thing to try next. And as I read this stuff I keep changing my mind on what direction we should go in. Currently, I'm thinking that we should post some guidelines on friendliness and if somebody accidently crosses a border, we can delete the offending message and direct the author to the guidelines.
      One thing I've read here is that people enjoy talking about stuff here because folks here might be a bit sharper than other folks on the net (maybe what they really mean is "more like me - a java geek!"). I can see the value in this. BUT! I doubt that anybody likes a personal attack. And I know that I hate to see good people stooping to the use of fallacy (it just makes you look bad).
      Damn near everybody is going to have a different idea on how this should be handled. And some people have been very insistant that if I don't use their idea that I'm a moron. Well, I'm a moron, but I might use the idea anyway.
      Ooops! Gotta go to work!
paul wheaton
Trailboss

Joined: Dec 14, 1998
Posts: 20635
    ∞

I am talking about US law. Because this site is "published" in the US, I'm guessing it would be bound to US law.
Cindy Glass
"The Hood"
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 29, 2000
Posts: 8521
Omar - it doesn't really matter. His point is just that there ARE things that are not legal to talk about in public, in addition to the things that are just not moral/ethical to talk about.
His example is that you can not discuss and plan how to commit a crime in public without expecting to get a visit from the law. And the rest of the folks here do NOT want to be around any such discussion.
San Su
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 06, 2001
Posts: 313
Originally posted by Cindy Glass:
Sorry folks - but I just don't GET it.
Should I get a vote on what CNN reports just based on the fact that I watch it everyday and "i would argue that it is bigger than anyone person's domain now'? Just try to tell CNN that :roll: .
They base their decisions on what THEY think the general viewing audience wants to see - but they certainly do NOT let the general viewing audience have ANY say so about individual items to be reported. Sheesh what a nightmare THAT would be.
Or perhaps my Mutual Fund company should let us VOTE on what stocks to purchase. After all, I have some of my real money invested in those funds. Wouldn't THAT work out well :roll: .
Stop and THINK about what you are suggesting. There are 48,000 registered members. Some no longer participate - but WE sure as heck don't have the manpower to track on such stuff.
Besides the fact that you are asking for something that you have no moral right to ask for, who in their right mind would decide to spend their precious spare time devoted to enabling such a thing.
Frankly the suggestion is so "off the wall" that I can not believe that you are asking it with a straight face.


This site became so popular among the java guys because of the selfless act of few ranchers. Yes, Paul own this site and gave us an oppertunity to improve our knowledge. At the same time, you should not forget that lots of other people contributed without expecting anything. Without them, I would say, this site is nothing (sorry if it is a harsh word). May be you could give voting rights to people with X number of posts ( > 500, > 1000, etc.. ) and paul may cast 2-3 votes .
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

This topic almost got Meaningless a couple times, but someone keeps pulling it back in.
Can we please please please agree to keep issues about JavaRanch in the JavaRanch forum?
Melvin Menezes
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 03, 2002
Posts: 156
Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:

May be you could give voting rights to people with X number of posts

Voting rights for what?
a) Voting for whether war related discussion must be allowed or not? They did allow that for a long time even without voting.
b) Voting for whether personal insults should be allowed? I am sure even you would agree that you don't want it.
so Voting for what? What's the problem? Why is everyone talking about voting suddenly?
Matthew Phillips
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 09, 2001
Posts: 2676
Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:


This site became so popular among the java guys because of the selfless act of few ranchers. Yes, Paul own this site and gave us an oppertunity to improve our knowledge. At the same time, you should not forget that lots of other people contributed without expecting anything. Without them, I would say, this site is nothing (sorry if it is a harsh word). May be you could give voting rights to people with X number of posts ( > 500, > 1000, etc.. ) and paul may cast 2-3 votes .

You are absolutely correct that the contributions of many people has made this a great site. Without people like Thomas Paul, Frank Carver, Bill Brogden, and even Sankar Subbiah this site would not be the place it is. The fact that this is a fantastic site with great people involved doesn't mean it needs to be a democracy. For the record, I think democracies are a generally bad idea for large numbers of people.
If we allow each person to vote on threads before deleting them, then we run into the following possible scenario:
1. A thread that could be construed as offensive and possibly illegal is posted.
2. One of the sherriffs or bartenders spots the thread. Instead of undoing the damage as quickly as possible, they post a link to the thread so that members may vote on it.
3. Since we are not in real time, a person with a vote may not visit every day. We have to wait until each vote is cast, which may take several days or longer. During that time the post could be driving users away or possibly getting Paul into trouble.
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: May I know why post has been deleted ?