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SOAP and WebServices

faisal mahmood
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 30, 2000
Posts: 349
Hi,
What's the difference between SOAP and webservices?
Faisal
Doug Davis
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 02, 2001
Posts: 9
Think of web services as the resource you are trying to
invoke, while SOAP is one of the possible ways in which
you can get the data to and from that resource.
SOAP is the transport; Web services is the operation.


Doug Davis<BR>Author of <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672321815/ref=ase_electricporkchop/103-0514572-3811868" TARGET=_blank rel="nofollow">Building Web Services: Making Sense of XML, SOAP, WSDL, and UDDI</A>
faisal mahmood
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 30, 2000
Posts: 349
Is SOAP a protocol for transferring data like TCP/IP, UDP etc?
Doug Davis
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 02, 2001
Posts: 9
SOAP moves over other protocols like HTTP, SMTP...
SOAP defines the syntax (what goes in the xml) how it
moves from one host to another is left up to stuff outside
of SOAP itself (although SOAP does provide some standard
conventions for doing it but those are not manditory).
anne lai
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 22, 2001
Posts: 8
SOAP is essentially XML and HTTP, it adds some header to HTTP, no other changes. Am I right?
Anne
Doug Davis
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 02, 2001
Posts: 9
Well, for SOAP over HTTP basically yes.
But SOAP is not limited to just HTTP - it can go over any
transport (SMTP, MQ, FTP...).
SOAP just defines what the payload(the message) looks like
not how it gets there.
-Dug
Guillaume Compagnon
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 09, 2001
Posts: 106
So, we could imagine developing webservices (java servlet responding in xml or JSP generating xml, for example) without having these webservices registered into UDDI registry... so without using SOAP at all.
In the other side, we can use SOAP as a communication layer over JMS or MQseries (with JAXM), without having wevbservices.
am I right ?


---------<BR>Guillaume
faisal mahmood
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 30, 2000
Posts: 349
Is webservices protocol intependant.
I.e. can webservices use IIOP instead of SOAP?
Faisal
Doug Davis
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 02, 2001
Posts: 9

WebServices do not require SOAP. WebServices can pretty much be anything you want as long as its available over a network. Many people so associate WebServices with SOAP but that's just because SOAP is popular at the moment.
-Dug
anne lai
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 22, 2001
Posts: 8
People can use HTTP, CORBA IIOP or SOAP as the protocol to talk to their web server in a web service. It is not because SOAP is popular at the moment, SOAP is better when you need to handle the comunication from the Business partner (or other system) to web server or to another business partner or other system.
Anne
Victor Htet
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 09, 2000
Posts: 70
Is there a book that specifically details SOAP? I have seen many books that explains SOAP but not much detail.


SCJP,SCWCD,SCEA,SCDJWS
Kyle Brown
author
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Joined: Aug 10, 2001
Posts: 3892
    
    5
See this thread (http://www.javaranch.com/ubb/Forum51/HTML/000019.html) about this week's giveaway
Kyle
------------------
Kyle Brown,
Author of Enterprise Java (tm) Programming with IBM Websphere
See my homepage at http://members.aol.com/kgb1001001 for other WebSphere information.


Kyle Brown, Author of Persistence in the Enterprise and Enterprise Java Programming with IBM Websphere, 2nd Edition
See my homepage at http://www.kyle-brown.com/ for other WebSphere information.
Kyle Brown
author
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Joined: Aug 10, 2001
Posts: 3892
    
    5
Originally posted by Doug Davis:

WebServices do not require SOAP. WebServices can pretty much be anything you want as long as its available over a network. Many people so associate WebServices with SOAP but that's just because SOAP is popular at the moment.
-Dug

Wait a minute. I have to disagree with this statement. You're redefining Web Services away from the most accepted definition. SOAP is the standard message protocol for Web Services. The idea is that you describe the services in XML and then define the messages in XML also. I don't think you can take SOAP (e.g. defining the messages in XML in a standard way) out of the picture and be left with any meaningful definition of web services.
Kyle

------------------
Kyle Brown,
Author of Enterprise Java (tm) Programming with IBM Websphere
See my homepage at http://members.aol.com/kgb1001001 for other WebSphere information.
William Brogden
Author and all-around good cowpoke
Rancher

Joined: Mar 22, 2000
Posts: 12806
    
    5
A book on doing SOAP with Java? Great idea - I am almost finished with mine, to be published by Sybex in late December early Jan if all goes well.
One reason books don't go into much programming detail is that so much of the standard is still up in the air and the various projects keep changing their implementations.
See the activity at the W3C in the XML Protocol group. http://www.w3.org/
Working SOAP examples in Java - see the SOAP and AXIS projects at the Apache organization: http://xml.apache.org
Some more resources http://www.lanw.com/books/javasoap/default.htm
Bill

------------------
author of:
Guillaume Compagnon
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 09, 2001
Posts: 106
Okay, SOAP is meaningfull in order to have a common message/communication layer between webservices.
In another way of thinking about SOAP, I have imagine that we can use SOAP as a fantastic protocol between clients in a Peer2Peer exchange. I know that JXTA project (http://www.jxta.org) works on specifying/implementing a P2P protocol, but don't know how far JXTA is with SOAP
faisal mahmood
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 30, 2000
Posts: 349
It's getting a bit confusing - webservices can exist without SOAP and SOAP can exist without webservices. What if both exist together or none exists?
What advantages can we have only using one, both or none?
Faisal
faisal mahmood
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 30, 2000
Posts: 349
Do you know where I can look at the specifications of WebServices and related technologies? I know that SOAP spec is in W3C site.
Faisal
Guillaume Compagnon
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 09, 2001
Posts: 106
Originally posted by faisal mahmood:
Do you know where I can look at the specifications of WebServices and related technologies? I know that SOAP spec is in W3C site.
Faisal

You ve got the WSDL specification, somewhere
Tiger Scott
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 01, 2001
Posts: 223
For webservices uddi.org is the best place to start.
Sanjay
BILAL HAMEED
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 08, 2001
Posts: 53
are there any competeting protocals to soap in the market
BILAL HAMEED
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 08, 2001
Posts: 53
does the soap specification enjoys industry wide acceptance
sridhar satuloori
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 05, 2001
Posts: 144
Yes!!!
SOAP is accepted by MicroSoft, Sun, IBM and other najor players..
Sridhar
Originally posted by BILAL HAMEED:
does the soap specification enjoys industry wide acceptance

murali kante
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 09, 2001
Posts: 9
What's the difference between SOAP and webservices?
I think SOAP is a protocol which helps to encapsulate ur XML formats. Assume it as an envelope in which ur XML letter(WSDL definition) is there.
webservice is a service or functionality residing in network which is available to be used by others (applications) over web.
SOAP helps to access the service.
Hope that helps
Any clear explanation is appreciated..
Cheers
Murali
William Brogden
Author and all-around good cowpoke
Rancher

Joined: Mar 22, 2000
Posts: 12806
    
    5
A competing protocol is XML-RPC - a simpler and faster XML protocol that SOAP is derived from. For in-house use in many cases, there is no need to use full blown SOAP.
http://www.xmlrpc.com/ http://classic.helma.at/hannes/xmlrpc/ - a Java implementation of XML-RPC
Bill
Kyle Brown
author
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 10, 2001
Posts: 3892
    
    5
While XML-RPC is simpler than SOAP in some ways, I wouldn't recommend it, even for in-house development because of the fact that the industry has basically gotten behind SOAP (its successor). You will see more tools and development environments support SOAP, and much of the grunt work that is necessary, even for in-house development (like authorization, etc.) has been done for SOAP, but is not for XML-RPC.
I think it's a matter of which standard to jump on -- one with wide industry support, or another that has some benefits, but that is supported by a much smaller community...
Kyle
------------------
Kyle Brown,
Author of Enterprise Java (tm) Programming with IBM Websphere
See my homepage at http://members.aol.com/kgb1001001 for other WebSphere information.
 
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subject: SOAP and WebServices