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Let us discuss it once and for all OR is ir really about naming policy ?

R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
In short I want to discuss the naming policy of JR.
Though history shows that who ever tried to discuss the naming policy of JR, his account has been closed but now I am tired of getting PMs for no apparant reason.
So even if one of the moderators is just looking for reason to close my account he need not to find any reason. I am giving him a chance, now its upto him how much he utilises this chance.
So I changed my name to "Zalim Singh". And its valid human name and I was told that my account could be closed.
I have always been in the favor of using original name, for only reason that there is no reason to hide behind a fake name.
But if someone points out that other dear rancher is using a fake name then what are the actions should be taken is my question ??
If answer is that it does not look like fake name then this rule should be applied on all not to some favorites one.
Obviously moderators are not here to "only" impose naming policy, they are doing it for our favor and everyone knows there great contribution and have always acknowledged that.
Now coming to the point.
I saw two different responses :
Case 1: Moderator is informed about a fake name and he tells user to change his display name(NOTE: it is said in public).
Case 2: Moderator is informed about fake name and he tells that it looks like real name so rancher may continue to posting with the fake name.
Now inspired by case 2, I change my display name. I get a usual PM about closing my account. And I am tired of such PMs.
First of all, why PM, I dont understand while for others it is told in public.
Second if you allow a valid human name to be a display name then let it be for everyone not for someone who is dear to you.
I will be happy if you say that like title, JR is also selling names. Fine with me, whoever can pay money he can chosse any name.
Actually this post is not about naming policy at all.
I have some more questions for all.
How many of you ask another person to use his quote as signature ??
How many of you get offended by getting addressed by surname ??
How many of you share a "fwded mail link" after thinking about the ligitimacy of linked site ??
I am not talking about super humans. I am talking about normal humans.
I think normal humans will have answer, NO for all these questions.
So let us NOT discuss naming policy because its already in really good shape.
Let us discuss, why there are discriminations in imposing this naming policy ?


"Thanks to Indian media who has over the period of time swiped out intellectual taste from mass Indian population." - Chetan Parekh
Eric Pascarello
author
Rancher

Joined: Nov 08, 2001
Posts: 15376
    
    6
I am not going to answer any of the questions above since I feel that other people here can explain it better than I can.....
But I have a few facts:
Your last 50 posts at this point: 2 in javaranch and 1 in another forum: 47 in MD....
Can I ask you a question? Did you ever think of helping out in other forums on this site by answering questions? The last time I checked, that is what this site won the Jolt adwards for!
Eric Pascarello
Ernest Friedman-Hill
author and iconoclast
Marshal

Joined: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: 24183
    
  34

The purpose of the naming convention, as I see it, is to ensure that everyone here has an online persona that makes them appear to be a real, living, worthwhile person, rather than a cartoon character, bot, or script kiddie. The result is that we have a community in which mutual respect can flourish. It ultimately doesn't matter if you use your real name or not; the important thing is that the name you use is part of the persona you project. Since you're presumably from Earth, your name has to be as well. Otherwise, the specifics don't matter.
So there are two components to this: first, you have to use a display name that's at least plausibly a real name. Second, you have to inhabit the name. You can't have a display name "John Smith," but then sign each message "Abdul." Likewise, you can't keep changing your display name to different, inconsistent names. Either of these actions gives away any illusion that your display name is real.
The staff tries to enforce both of these points consistently. What we don't try to enforce is that everybody actually uses their own real name. We prefer that, but we don't require it. As I described earlier, it really doesn't matter. Anybody who runs around saying "Fred Jones isn't his real name!" is just making trouble; as long as Fred follows the principles above -- which Paul McKenna always has -- then it's the complainer who's making trouble, not Fred Jones.


[Jess in Action][AskingGoodQuestions]
Marilyn de Queiroz
Sheriff

Joined: Jul 22, 2000
Posts: 9044
    
  10
R K Singh is a valid user name and Zalim Singh is also (as far as I know) a valid user name.

"I have always been in the favor of using original name, for only reason that there is no reason to hide behind a fake name."

I agree with this.

Certain fake names are not acceptable. The naming policy page refers to some examples of these but certainly is not all inclusive. I think it is to your benefit to retain your valid name (rather than change it) once you have more than a few posts.
[ April 09, 2004: Message edited by: Marilyn de Queiroz ]

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"Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, and today is a gift; that's why they call it the present." Eleanor Roosevelt
Marilyn de Queiroz
Sheriff

Joined: Jul 22, 2000
Posts: 9044
    
  10
Originally posted by R K Singh:
I have some more questions for all.
How many of you ask another person to use his quote as signature ??
How many of you get offended by getting addressed by surname ??
How many of you share a "fwded mail link" after thinking about the ligitimacy of linked site ??

I suggest that you start a new thread for these questions. But the short answer is:

1) In general, I think it is a good idea to ask whether you may use someone's quote as a signature.

2) Depends on the culture

3) Hopefully you check a forwarded link before you decide to share it because after you share it, it becomes "your link" and you are associated with its legitimacy.
[ April 09, 2004: Message edited by: Marilyn de Queiroz ]
Chris Mathews
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 18, 2001
Posts: 2712
So this is the name policy discussion thread to end all name policy discussion threads? Oh, how I wish that were true.
Sorry, I don't have anything productive to add. Personally, I don't see everybody's problem with the name policy. I have and will always use my real name on meaningful discussion boards like Javaranch.
In fact, I have seen a startling correlation between people that ignore the name policy and people with "bad forum netiquette". By "bad forum netiquette" I mean they do one or more of the following:
  • Post terribly worded and poorly thought-out questions.
  • Start threads with the title UGENT!!!
  • Ask a question and never respond to the answer. (I am vain and like know when my response has been helpful)
  • Offer thanks in advance... which basically means we won't be hearing back from them after someone responds. (see above)
  • Get abrasive when someone suggests they try other alternatives instead of giving a cut-and-dry answer to the original question.
  • Try to pawn off their homework on others.
  • Troll.


  • I think the JR name policy is excellent but I franky don't have the energy to chase people around the enforce the rule most of the time... and I rarely think those posters are even worth the effort. Thankfully, there are many other Bartenders and Sheriffs that do and they pick up my slack. To those individuals... I salute thee.
    [ April 09, 2004: Message edited by: Chris Mathews ]
    R K Singh
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Oct 15, 2001
    Posts: 5371
    Originally posted by Eric Pascarello:
    Can I ask you a question? Did you ever think of helping out in other forums on this site by answering questions?

    Is this the answer ?? Look at my posts before I reached 500-700 posts.
    I randomly picked some posters of MD and I found that more or less there "view recent pages" looks similar.
    Is this the only fault that I posted in MD only??
    Thomas Paul
    mister krabs
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: May 05, 2000
    Posts: 13974
    The reason that your name change was a problem is that you announced that you were changing your name. If you want to create a brand new id under some phony name then as long as the name is reasonable no one will care. But if you announce that you are changing your name then we have a problem.
    How many of you ask another person to use his quote as signature ??
    I don't use the quotes of people unles I am positive it won't offend them.
    How many of you get offended by getting addressed by surname ??
    I just assume the person is too lazy or stupid to get it right. It's either "Thomas" or "Mr. Paul". Anything else is obnoxious. (although I do give some leeway for people who may not realize that Americans have their surname last.)
    How many of you share a "fwded mail link" after thinking about the ligitimacy of linked site ??
    I never post forwarded mail links. But if I did I would always check it for veracity.


    Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
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    R K Singh
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Oct 15, 2001
    Posts: 5371
    Originally posted by Ernest Friedman-Hill:
    Anybody who runs around saying "Fred Jones isn't his real name!" is just making trouble; as long as Fred follows the principles above -- which Paul McKenna always has -- then it's the complainer who's making trouble, not Fred Jones.

    First of all, I have never complained about anyone's name.
    I dont care what is the poster's name. It depends on individual, some feel comfortable with their original name and some feel comfortable with fake name.
    Even it was me who objected calling anonymous posters cowards.
    I am not objecting on Fred Jones name.
    I am asking when Fred Jones can change his display name then why not me ??
    Answer could be anything like only people who has pain money to buy title or who has sent their laptop to poor african girl are only entitled for changing their display name.
    My question is why this discrepancy ?
    Thomas Paul
    mister krabs
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: May 05, 2000
    Posts: 13974
    Originally posted by R K Singh:
    Is this the only fault that I posted in MD only??

    No, the fault is that you are a complainer. Stop whining and get on with your life. Why do you care what name Paul McKenna goes by? The number one rule when you registered here was "be nice".
    R K Singh
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Oct 15, 2001
    Posts: 5371
    Originally posted by Marilyn de Queiroz:

    I suggest that you start a new thread for these questions. But the short answer is:

    No Marilyn. As I told this is not only about naming policy.
    And actually my post is not at all about naming policy.
    Its about discrimination among ranchers.
    Thomas Paul
    mister krabs
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: May 05, 2000
    Posts: 13974
    Originally posted by R K Singh:
    Its about discrimination among ranchers.
    There is no discrimination. Paul has always been Paul. As far as I know he has never had any other name.
    R K Singh
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Oct 15, 2001
    Posts: 5371
    Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
    No, the fault is that you are a complainer. Stop whining and get on with your life. Why do you care what name Paul McKenna goes by? The number one rule when you registered here was "be nice".

    Thomas dont get angry, at least not in this thread ( ), because when you get angry then account is closed and the reason would be only that you are angry.
    Now enough kidding. Just tell me when I whine about anyone's name ?
    In your words the person who post with fake name should be coward. rt ?
    I dont care even if Paul posts as Ramkali.
    Does "be nice" rule says that you cant discuss discrimination ??
    Are you sure that the only reason is that I first announced and then changed the name ?? It was not mentioned anywhere in the PM I got else there was no need to come here and discuss it.
    So let us discuss it.
    If you say that its wrong to first announce and then change the name, agree with you.
    Next time I follow this. [though generally people announce their changed name but as its JR, it might have its own rules which everyone need to follow in JR.]
    Thomas Paul
    mister krabs
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: May 05, 2000
    Posts: 13974
    Now enough kidding. Just tell me when I whine about anyone's name ?
    I seem to recall a thread in MD where there was plenty of whining because Paul is Indian but doesn't have an Indian name. The very fact of you changing your name because of Paul is a form of whining. You apparently want us to stop Paul from using his name when it is none of your business. That is whining.
    In your words the person who post with fake name should be coward. rt ?
    I never said that. There are plenty of reasons to post with a fake name and being a coward may be one of them but it doesn't have to be.
    I dont care even if Paul posts as Ramkali.
    Then why did you change your name?
    Are you sure that the only reason is that I first announced and then changed the name ??
    Avsolutely. We had a discussion about it before you were PM'ed.
    though generally people announce their changed name but as its JR, it might have its own rules which everyone need to follow in JR.
    We don't like people to announce they are changing their name unless they are changing their name to be their real name.
    R K Singh
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Oct 15, 2001
    Posts: 5371
    Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
    Then why did you change your name?

    Why there is so much whining about my chaging name ??
    OK, I agree. No one should change his name after announcing it except its a real name.
    There is no discrepancy in JR.
    Its just that I was not aware of this 'new' rule of not changing name after announcement. Actually it was not mentioned anywhere even not in PM.
    Discussion is over.
    Look, nice discussions always help us to understand each other better.
    [ April 09, 2004: Message edited by: R K Singh ]
    Jim Yingst
    Wanderer
    Sheriff

    Joined: Jan 30, 2000
    Posts: 18671
    [RKS]: Though history shows that who ever tried to discuss the naming policy of JR, his account has been closed
    Well, no. This has been true for a few people who chose to continue their name violations, repeatedly. But many others have discussed the name policy with no such problems. If your goal is really to have a "nice discussion" it might have been beneficial not to misrepresent our past actions.
    As for the issue of consistency:
    [RKS]: In short I want to discuss the naming policy of JR.
    [RKS]: Actually this post is not about naming policy at all.

    Well, that didn't take long. It's tough to maintain a consistent policy over time in all situations, isn't it? Usually we try to last longer than a single post at least, but I guess even that is not always possible.
    We try to be consistent in our policies, while at the same time rwe recogize the need to adapt them over time. E.g. when we recognize that past policies led to problems. We used to be more permissive about fictitious name violations in MD, since it's "just" meaningless drivel after all. But over time we had a series of problems with certain posters who were using fictitious names, and we decided it would be better in the long run to try to close off this loophole in the rules, so that MD was more like the rest of JavaRanch in this respect. So we've become more aggressive about name violations in MD.
    As for Paul McKenna, he changed his display name some time ago, back while we were more permissive. He made no attempt to hide the fact that he'd changed his name, and at the time we saw nothing wrong with it this change. Several months (and many posts) later, we started becoming more aggressive about preventing name violations in MD. It was decided that if you announce your name is not your real name, that makes it "obviously fictitious". But we didn't want to penalize people who'd announced this in the past, like Paul M. So instead we simply asked Paul and a few others to simply avoid mentioning the ficitious nature of their names in the future. Paul has been perfectly helpful in this respect. On the other hand, if other people want to keep bringing up Paul's name, well that's not his fault. There have been various people who have tried to use this as a basis to attack Paul in the past, and such attempts get no sympathy here.
    So - if someone changes their name now, and tells us about it (in a way that makes it clear that the new name is not real), the answer is no, because the announcement made it obviously fictitious. For people who did something like this in the past, we're a bit more flexible - as long as they try to be circumspect about it.
    I've added a line to the name policy page which will hopefully make this a bit clearer for other people in the future. Hope that helps...


    "I'm not back." - Bill Harding, Twister
    paul wheaton
    Trailboss

    Joined: Dec 14, 1998
    Posts: 20545
        ∞

    Let's see .... Paul McKenna donated a laptop to that gal in Africa.
    Very cool.
    He donated enough money to JavaRanch to get his own custom title.
    Very cool.
    He picked a cool title.
    Very cool.
    He has always cooperated with every little rule whim I would make up.
    Very cool.
    In talking to him, logic, reason and good manners seem to be the rule.
    Very cool.
    It seems to me that we have a decent and respectable member of our community. If anyone suggests that he is anything less, I would have to have strong suspicions about the quality of character of such a person.
    Now, I've only skimmed through this thread, but is anyone suggesting that Paul McKenna is anything less than a decent and generous man?


    permaculture Wood Burning Stoves 2.0 - 4-DVD set
    R K Singh
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Oct 15, 2001
    Posts: 5371
    Originally posted by Paul Wheaton:
    [QB][/QB]

    Is this thread about Paul ???
    And I was thinking that I was talking about discrimination.
    AW its good that now we have another NEW rule in the naming policy that one cant announce his changed name...
    paul wheaton
    Trailboss

    Joined: Dec 14, 1998
    Posts: 20545
        ∞

    > Is this thread about Paul ???
    His name does come up more than once.
    Or is this thread about you?
    > And I was thinking that I was talking about discrimination.
    I sure hope that the staff discriminates. I sure hope that they can tell the difference between decent people that are trying to help make things smooth and nasty people that have nothing better to do than to test the boundaries of the rules and cry "foul".
    > AW its good that now we have another NEW rule in the naming policy that
    > one cant announce his changed name...
    We do? You would think I would know about it.
    As far as I know, there is only one rule: Be nice.
    Of course, when one logs on, one is told about our naming policy. And the more people try to screw around with it and waste the time of the staff, the stricter we get with that policy.
    Years ago we said "Obviously fictitious names will be deleted." If you change your name and say "Looky! I changed my name to an obviously fictitious name!" well, that pretty much makes it obviously fictitious, doesn't it?
    And now let me share some general thoughts. I'm quite open discussing how I run my site. I think I've made some pretty good decisions and once in a while somebody says something that has convinced me to try a different approach. But I'm pretty sure that nobody has ever accused me of doing something in a stupid fashion and then I change my mind.
    Just so I'm clear:

      Discussion about my policies is lovely.
      Persuasion sometimes gets me to change my mind.
      Accusation has never led to me changing my mind and usually leaves me feeling less than charmed.

      I find your message to be accusatory and have a general tone of nastiness. It makes me think that you don't care for me or the way I run my site. That combination makes me think that either you owe me a sincere apology or that perhaps you should move along to some other site.
    Mapraputa Is
    Leverager of our synergies
    Sheriff

    Joined: Aug 26, 2000
    Posts: 10065
    Some of our rules are "stable", like "be nice!" rule. Some are updated as a response to some events. We had a precedent with someone changing his name, and that's how "don't announce the name change" rule was born. Unfortunately, we didn't add it to the official JR codex of laws on naming policy, and now we fixed that. Now there are these lines:
    And if you do use a fictitious name, don't announce that it's fictitious. We want to encourage use of real names as much as possible here, so please don't undermine that goal.

    Ravish pointed out this problem, the problem is solved, hopefully in the future no more (or at least less) posters will be confused. I think, it's a positive outcome. No need to accuse anybody in anything, let's give peace a chance.
    [ April 12, 2004: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

    Uncontrolled vocabularies
    "I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
    John Smith
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Oct 08, 2001
    Posts: 2937
    Ravish pointed out this problem, the problem is solved, hopefully in the future no more (or at least less) posters will be confused.
    Ravish? I am confused now. I thought the problem was centered around RK Singh. Wait, who is Zalim Singh?
    Mapraputa Is
    Leverager of our synergies
    Sheriff

    Joined: Aug 26, 2000
    Posts: 10065
    His full name is Ravish Kumar Singh 'Bash' Bhardwaj. "Zalim" ("a merciless tyrant") is his pseudonym.
    Varun Khanna
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: May 30, 2002
    Posts: 1400
    Ravish? I am confused now. I thought the problem was centered around RK Singh. Wait, who is Zalim Singh?


    Good to see your message. It's going to make most of us smile (atlast)
    Ravish is RK Singh


    - Varun
    R K Singh
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Oct 15, 2001
    Posts: 5371
    Originally posted by Paul Wheaton:
    Or is this thread about you?

    This thread is about your site famous as JR.
    I sure hope that the staff discriminates.....cry "foul".
    I wish this is your own words.
    As far as I know, there is only one rule: Be nice.
    Is asking question makes one nasty ??
    the stricter we get with that policy.
    Its good that naming policy is beoming more and more clear [I wont say strict].
    But I'm pretty sure that nobody has ever accused me of doing something in a stupid fashion and then I change my mind.
    Very few people take a practical approach to tell a problem.
    I am sorry if my practical joke hurt you. (yes, it was a joke till I get PM)

      Discussion about my policies is lovely.
      Persuasion sometimes gets me to change my mind.
      Accusation has never led to me changing my mind and usually leaves me feeling less than charmed.
      Thats a good point about you and your site.
      But some time accusation should be taken in positive manner too. .
      I find your message to be accusatory
      Yes it was.
      and have a general tone of nastiness.
      No. I did not want to create any disturbance here in your site.
      I tried to make my post as general/common as I could. I did not take anyone's name (yes, my post could have been nasty if I would have taken any name or if I had said anything bad about you or your site.)
      As I said earlier that if I would have been communicated the new rule then I would have not come here to ask at all.
      It makes me think that you don't care for me or the way I run my site.
      I dont know what should I do to make you believe that I do care. Isnt it enough that I follow your name policy in the best manner I could.
      That combination makes me think that either you owe me a sincere apology or that perhaps you should move along to some other site.
      I dont know for what you want me to apologies but I can surely apologise only for being accusative, if it makes you happy.

      And I was thinking its all over when I said :
      OK, I agree. No one should change his name after announcing it except its a real name.
      OK, I agree. No one should change his name after announcing it except its a real name.
      There is no discrepancy in JR.
      Its just that I was not aware of this 'new' rule of not changing name after announcement. Actually it was not mentioned anywhere even not in PM.


      Do you think agreeing with someone and ending a discussion denotes nastiness ??
      If it is nastiness then again my "serious" apologies that I agreed "whatever" was told to me.
    paul wheaton
    Trailboss

    Joined: Dec 14, 1998
    Posts: 20545
        ∞

    R K Singh,
    You think you are being witty and interesting, but in my opinion, you're being icky and annoying.
    Clearly, you have some opinions that differ from mine. I suggest that you start your own site and demonstrate what you think is right.
    Perhaps you will build a community of people that appreciate your "wit".
    I hope that this new web site takes up so much of your time that we don't see you around here anymore - a place that you seem to not care for.
    Don't let the screen door slap your butt on the way out.
    R K Singh
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Oct 15, 2001
    Posts: 5371
    You win.
    Because I cant get down to personal level.
    [ April 13, 2004: Message edited by: R K Singh ]
    Don Stadler
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Feb 10, 2004
    Posts: 451
    Haven't I seen this discussion before? It always turns out the same. And it's always plug-ugly.
    Experience shows that it's better that you surrender immediately, RK. Or leave.
    Alton Hernandez
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: May 30, 2003
    Posts: 443
    Wow, this is one nasty thread with lots of emotions.
    First time I've seen one person get flamed in JavaRanch.
    Scaryyyyyy.....
     
    Consider Paul's rocket mass heater.
     
    subject: Let us discuss it once and for all OR is ir really about naming policy ?