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Disappointed again, pass score is only 59%!

Eduardo Rodrigues
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 01, 2003
Posts: 199
Hey guys,

I�m disappointed again... The pass score for the 'new' SCJP is only 59%!
It�s RIDICULOUS! This way any junior programmer with 2 WEEKS pass this test.
What do you think???

See the link:
http://www.sun.com/training/catalog/courses/CX-310-055.xml

Bye,


Eduardo Rodrigues<br />SCJP 1.4/5.0 SCWCD 1.3/1.4, SCBCD 1.3, SCMAD, SCEA<br />IBM 484 & 486<br />Belo Horizonte<br />Minas Gerais<br />Brasil
marc weber
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 31, 2004
Posts: 11343

Originally posted by Eduardo Rodrigues:
... The pass score for the 'new' SCJP is only 59%! It's RIDICULOUS! This way any junior programmer with 2 WEEKS pass this test. What do you think??? ...

I think it depends on what the questions are.


"We're kind of on the level of crossword puzzle writers... And no one ever goes to them and gives them an award." ~Joe Strummer
sscce.org
Mark Spritzler
ranger
Sheriff

Joined: Feb 05, 2001
Posts: 17260
    
    6

Originally posted by Eduardo Rodrigues:
Hey guys,

I�m disappointed again... The pass score for the 'new' SCJP is only 59%!
It�s RIDICULOUS! This way any junior programmer with 2 WEEKS pass this test.
What do you think???

See the link:
http://www.sun.com/training/catalog/courses/CX-310-055.xml

Bye,


Wow 59%

That is extremely higher than I thought it would be. I thought it would be about 30-40% Considering how difficult this exam is. I can guarantee that there is no junior programmer with 2 WEEKS can pass this exam at 59%. It will take a junior programmer at least two solid months. If they can do it in two WEEKS, I submit that they are not junior programmers.

Wow, and now you get almost three hours. You will need all that time to finish 72 questions.

Mark
[ April 19, 2005: Message edited by: Mark Spritzler ]

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Dibbo Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 19, 2004
Posts: 147
Given this exam, that pass mark is not trivial. It is far from insuperable, and clever junior programmers will be able to pass it, but if they do, then they deserve a chance.


MCPD (Enterprise Application Developer, Windows Developer, Web Developer - .NET 2.0), MCTS (Windows Apps, Web Apps and Disbributed Applications - .NET 2.0), MCITP (Database Developer & Business Intelligence Developer - SQL Server 2005), MCAD, MSCD.net, SCJP 5, SCWCD 1.4, SCBCD, SCMAD, SCDJWS, SCJA
Marcus Green
arch rival
Rancher

Joined: Sep 14, 1999
Posts: 2813
What do you think???

Eduardo I think you are entirely wrong. Many candidates do not pass the exam. It belittles the work of those who are studying to make declarations such as yours without evidence.


SCWCD: Online Course, 50,000+ words and 200+ questions
http://www.examulator.com/moodle/course/view.php?id=5&topic=all
Juarez Alvares Barbosa Junior
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 18, 2002
Posts: 80
Hi Eduardo, my friend!

I disagree! I don't think that 59% is easy to achieve. I consider that this exam is a difficult one and I'm sure a lot of people have the same opinion.

Don't forget that this exam has a lot of new stuff and tricky questions. Also, it's aimed at begginers and/or entry level programmers, not experienced architects like you.

When I took the SCPJ2 - 1.2 version the pass score was 61% with 120 minutes. When they downgraded the 1.4 score to 52% I did not like it as well, but for 5.0 I think 59% is acceptable.

Now for the 5.0 version we have 59% with 175 minutes. More time means more difficult questions I guess...

Think about that!

[]'s

Juarez
Eduardo Rodrigues
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 01, 2003
Posts: 199
Originally posted by Marcus Green:
What do you think???
It belittles the work of those who are studying to make declarations such as yours without evidence.

Hold on! That�s not my intention!
I think that a certificate that almost everybody has doesn�t means nothing on your resume! I really think that the pass score must be higher , maybe 70% ... Yes, the SCJP 5.0 is new NOW but won�t be forever and at this time the certification won�t add any value to the person who passed NOW with the score of 59%...

Only my 2 cents...
Eduardo Rodrigues
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 01, 2003
Posts: 199
Originally posted by Mark Spritzler:


Wow 59%

That is extremely higher than I thought it would be. I thought it would be about 30-40% Considering how difficult this exam is. I can guarantee that there is no junior programmer with 2 WEEKS can pass this exam at 59%. It will take a junior programmer at least two solid months. If they can do it in two WEEKS, I submit that they are not junior programmers.

Wow, and now you get almost three hours. You will need all that time to finish 72 questions.

Mark

[ April 19, 2005: Message edited by: Mark Spritzler ]

We have a case in my company that a new java programmer who had only a course and some weeks of study passed in the OLD scjp... NO REAL EXPERIENCE! I don�t think that he will have any problem to repeat this...

Bye,
Kay Liew
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 26, 2003
Posts: 112
You never know the true facts of how much time he has studied before even taking the training. The fact is, after a person passed it s/he can say anything. No experience and passed with 2 weeks of studying? Do some calculation of time of each chapter and materials a person required to understand and memorized. How much time required to do the mock tests ? How about writting some java snippet just to test out the code? Well, is that a full time or a part time thing?

It's really rare people can do things like I did.
Actually, I passed my scpj with couple days of preparation from javadoc and scjp tutorial from SUN web site and I have only wrote a Hello World that looped 3 times. I think the exam is so easy even my 3 years old can do it with. I think Sun should raised the score to 85% so that my 3 years cannot do it without writting a Hello World to loop 4 times.


Unity can only be manifested by the Binary. Unity itself and the idea of Unity are already two.
Nimai Etheridge
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 16, 2005
Posts: 16
the scjp is a entry level programming test aimed at making sure that the people who have gotten it, know the ins and outs of java, which i think it does a very good job of. With enough study and the right materials, any programming language can be picked up within a few weeks. there's only so much that they can test you on. I don't think they can make the test to much harder without having to ask stupid questions.

we all know that it takes more than simple knowledge of a langauge to make a good developer...and thankfully there are other certificates offered by sun that address this...personally i'm just wanting to get my scjp out of the way so i can move on to the other certs.

also, if you have a new programmer, with no experience, who can pick up enough in 2 weeks to pass these exams, i'd be watching and paying close attention them as they probably have a lot of talent and potential to be top developers.
Kay Liew
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 26, 2003
Posts: 112
<QUOTE>who can pick up enough in 2 weeks to pass these exams, i'd be watching and paying close attention them as they probably have a lot of talent and potential to be top developers <QUOTE>

If there is a such talented person exist which I think possible, he will not end up in small companies. This person probably did really really good in school or getting to some top universities and work for the best company. In that case, why would the person need SCJP ? To get a better job than the best job that s/he is working on ? Another thing i could think of is just to have fun. In that case, does score of the exam really matter anymore ?
Wei-ju Wu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 16, 2005
Posts: 147
Hi Eduardo,

I think anyone who took the Beta exam for the new SCJP 5.0 will agree, that this is a considerably harder exam than the others. I passed the 1.2 exam more than three years ago with only two hours of preparation. For the beta exam I prepared 5 days (with no previous 5.0 experience), thinking it would be enough with years of Java programming experience.

Well after five and a half hours I was exhausted and surprised how difficult the exam was. Even three hours would be a long time to stay focused. 59% might not look much, but in Germany, 50-60% is a common passing score for exams. And given the difficulty and the amount of questions it might not me as easy as you think...

The new exam contains a considerable amount of programming tasks, so it is diffcult to pass by simply memorizing answers.

Furthermore, it is a *programmer* exam testing your knowledge of the language and not your ability to develop a larger system.

Wei-ju


"The UrlyBird catches the certificate. And he's gonna FlyByNight"<br /> <br />SCJP 1.2/5.0, SCJD, SCBCD, SCWCD, SCEA
Pete Knecht
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2005
Posts: 33
Originally posted by Kay Liew:
You never know the true facts of how much time he has studied before even taking the training. The fact is, after a person passed it s/he can say anything. No experience and passed with 2 weeks of studying? Do some calculation of time of each chapter and materials a person required to understand and memorized. How much time required to do the mock tests ? How about writting some java snippet just to test out the code? Well, is that a full time or a part time thing?

It's really rare people can do things like I did.
Actually, I passed my scpj with couple days of preparation from javadoc and scjp tutorial from SUN web site and I have only wrote a Hello World that looped 3 times. I think the exam is so easy even my 3 years old can do it with. I think Sun should raised the score to 85% so that my 3 years cannot do it without writting a Hello World to loop 4 times.


Wow, talk about belittling those studying for the 1.5 test (or the 1.4)! Your two paragraphs contradict each other, and what you say about 3-year olds is absurd. Some of the people here obviously forgot, after they had passed a certain cert, what it's like to go from little or zero experience to having enough knowledge to pass an exam. Not to mention the fact that clearly the people at Sun aren't fools, and will have set the bar such that their own cert means something.
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982
I partially agreed with Eduardo with the point that SCJP Tiger will become old for, say, 1 year. I believe the passing rate should either higher or the test should make use of the adapative approach, so that the level of difficulty of the questions vary.

Nick


SCJP 1.2, OCP 9i DBA, SCWCD 1.3, SCJP 1.4 (SAI), SCJD 1.4, SCWCD 1.4 (Beta), ICED (IBM 287, IBM 484, IBM 486), SCMAD 1.0 (Beta), SCBCD 1.3, ICSD (IBM 288), ICDBA (IBM 700, IBM 701), SCDJWS, ICSD (IBM 348), OCP 10g DBA (Beta), SCJP 5.0 (Beta), SCJA 1.0 (Beta), MCP(70-270), SCBCD 5.0 (Beta), SCJP 6.0, SCEA for JEE5 (in progress)
Eduardo Rodrigues
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 01, 2003
Posts: 199
Originally posted by Pete Knecht:

...their own cert means something.

You said everything...
A question: what really means "be a SCJP" in your contries??? Here, it�s very easy to find many SCJP programmers without a job, even without real experience
with the language...
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982
it�s very easy to find many SCJP programmers without a job, even without real experience with the language...

That's true, however, only getting a certificate is not useful. It is of more use when one who get the real knowledge and the ability for handling real tasks.

Certificate itself only means you have attended to a certain knowledge level.

Nick
Jack Gold
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 04, 2005
Posts: 85
Originally posted by Eduardo Rodrigues:

We have a case in my company that a new java programmer who had only a course and some weeks of study passed in the OLD scjp... NO REAL EXPERIENCE! I don�t think that he will have any problem to repeat this...

Bye,

Eduardo,
Attitudes like yours drag the profession down.


SCJP 1.4<br />SCJD <br />SCWCD (Studying)
Eduardo Rodrigues
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 01, 2003
Posts: 199
Originally posted by Chris Mahood:

Eduardo,
Attitudes like yours drag the profession down.


???
What attitude? Man, you take me too serious... Relax, it is my opinion, respect it as I respect yours!
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
Originally posted by Eduardo Rodrigues:


???
What attitude? Man, you take me too serious... Relax, it is my opinion, respect it as I respect yours!


I guess he means "any opinion that doesn't match with mine" when he says "attitudes like yours".

But I do agree with him that your opinion that the passing score is too low is incorrect.
The passing score on exams in general in most countries is 56%.

If you want to make the exam harder, make the questions harder instead or lower the amount of time (though that might work against people who work slowly but methodically).
[ April 22, 2005: Message edited by: Jeroen Wenting ]

42
Marcus Green
arch rival
Rancher

Joined: Sep 14, 1999
Posts: 2813
I have been reading feedback from candidates who have studied for the Sun Certified Java Programmers exam since 1998. I have received ten of thousands of emails on the subject (yes tens of thousands) and read every posting on the subject based on searching public web forums such as this almost every day during that period.

There has been a consistant pattern of opinion that passing the exam is a significant undertaking requiring a large amount of study generally taking several months. Sun have recommended six months study in the past. Many people who take the exam do not pass first time (including me).

Passing the exam does not and never has required that you have worked as a Java Programmer, it does not expect that you are spectacularly or unusually able, only that you understand a narrow range of specified areas of the language.

Every so often someone will post that the exam is trivial/easy and they or someone they know studied and passed the exam in only a matter of days or weeks. If this is true then they are very clever and should be more aware of how smart they are, take pleasure in their ability not belittle the ability of others.
Eduardo Rodrigues
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 01, 2003
Posts: 199
Originally posted by Marcus Green:
... not belittle the ability of others.

AGAIN: I�m not (and I think that nobody is) belittle the ability of others!
I�m posting an opinion! MY OPINIION! It�s simple like that! I didn�t said that the exam is easy (anyway easy or not easy is very personal), but , IN MY OPINION (is it a forum yet?) the exam score is very low...
Nobody must agree with me, that�s not my intention...
I totally agree with the approach of making the questions harder and keep the score... MY OPINION!
Man, I�ll think twice before posting on this forum again! It�s like "if you don�t have my opinion, do not post anything"!

My (LAST) two cents!
Marcus Green
arch rival
Rancher

Joined: Sep 14, 1999
Posts: 2813
Don't be put of posting Eduardo, you have ignited a debate on an important topic and bought out some interesting ideas.
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
Every so often someone will post that the exam is trivial/easy and they or someone they know studied and passed the exam in only a matter of days or weeks. If this is true then they are very clever and should be more aware of how smart they are, take pleasure in their ability not belittle the ability of others.


Or extremely lucky
As long as it's a multiple choice exam and not a written test (say a programming assignment) it's statistically possible to get a passing grade by pure guesswork and a bit of common sense.

AGAIN: I�m not (and I think that nobody is) belittle the ability of others!


Maybe not intentional but you did come across that way. I too read your statement as meaning that in your opinion noone getting under 80% is good enough to pass.

Is the exam too easy? I don't think so but there may be questions in there which are too easy and by pure chance some people might get only those questions and none of the hard ones.

Can people pass by pure guesswork? Of course, the exam is based largely on logic (after all, a programming language should be (mostly) logical and therefore logical reasoning compared with some knowledge of the language and a good dose of guesswork and luck may get you through. Increasing the passing grade makes that harder but will never put an end to it.

Do the majority of people getting a grade under X pass that way? I severely doubt it and with the new question types in the 1.5 exam it will only decrease further.
 
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