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SCJP so whats the point?

hey now
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 02, 2006
Posts: 7
I took the SCJP 5.0 exam yesterday, it was my first attempt, and passed. I see many people trying so hard to pass this thing and for what? what do people look to gain with this cert? For me I hold a degree in CS and have been a java SE for about 5 years. I have no plans to even add this cert to my resume. I just wanted to see what the fuss was all about and if I could pass the darn thing.

So other than providing sun with a way to profit from java whats the point can someone explain this to me?
[ September 02, 2006: Message edited by: hey now ]
marc weber
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 31, 2004
Posts: 11343

"hey now,"

Welcome to JavaRanch!

Please revise your display name to meet the JavaRanch Naming Policy. To maintain the friendly atmosphere here at the ranch, we like folks to use real (or at least real-looking) names, with a first and a last name.

You can edit your display name here. Thank you for your prompt attention!

-Marc

PS: Congratulations on passing your exam.


"We're kind of on the level of crossword puzzle writers... And no one ever goes to them and gives them an award." ~Joe Strummer
sscce.org
Barry Gaunt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 03, 2002
Posts: 7729
And when you have changed your display name we can move your post to our "Hall of Fame" - our Sun Certified Results Forum (like it says at the top of this forum).

SCJP is a minimal requisite for other Sun certifications, so you can move on to pass those with flying colours...

Some companies are using certifications as minimum entry-level requirements for their new employees - especially for those jobs not requiring the training level of a CS graduate or computer scientist. Others are requiring that already hired personnel get certified so that they can show that they are keeping upto date with the programming language being used in their job.

Congratulations!
[ September 02, 2006: Message edited by: Barry Gaunt ]

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Matt Russell
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 15, 2006
Posts: 165
see many people trying so hard to pass this thing and for what? what do people look to gain with this cert?...So other than providing sun with a way to profit from java whats the point can someone explain this to me?

I have a masters degree in CS. I did a little Java programming as an undergrad (around Java 1.2), but not much since. I wanted to derustify my skills and learn the new language features of Java 5. I'm studying SCJP primarily as motivation to learn the fiddly details of the language. To use on a CV is only a secondary goal.
[ September 03, 2006: Message edited by: Matt Caripto ]

Matt
Inquisition: open-source mock exam simulator for SCJP and SCWCD
Praveen Babu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 30, 2006
Posts: 138
Hi,

Since you have passed the exam, you now need to know one more thing. Its not about how much you know but how well you know the language and SCJP will help you to know this distinction.

Regards
Praveen
Marcus Green
arch rival
Rancher

Joined: Sep 14, 1999
Posts: 2813
Congratulations on passing, but I don't quite understand your post

"and have been a java SE for about 5 years"

Assuming this means you have been a professional Java programmer (I am not familiar with the abbreviation SE),

I suspect you have neither made Sun much money (a big chunk of that huge exam fee goes to Sylvan Prometric) nor made a great difference to yourself, as once you have substantial experience as a Java programmer certification doesn't make a huge difference.

It can add a teeny bit of weight to the resume of an experienced programmer in that it is an independent endorsement by a multi-billion corporation, but on balance what counts is real world commercial experience. What I don't understand is why you would spend the exam fee and spend the time taking the exam without an idea of what benefit it would bring you?


SCWCD: Online Course, 50,000+ words and 200+ questions
http://www.examulator.com/moodle/course/view.php?id=5&topic=all
Dave Reinhardt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 07, 2006
Posts: 54
I think SE must stand for software engineer.

I'm a little skeptical of people who say the test is easy, and even some of the high scores since there's no way to verify any of this. I've been studying for the SCJP 5 for a few months now in my spare time, and I think the mock exams are incredibly difficult. It's going to be some time before I'm passing them all and I can take the test. I don't know if it will be worth it in terms of getting a job, but I am learning many things that I didn't know. My biggest complaint about the mock exams is the way they try to trick you, and also the way some of the code is formatted so it's hard to read. imo, this kind of thing isn't testing much since it would be rare to see real code this messed up.
Marcus Green
arch rival
Rancher

Joined: Sep 14, 1999
Posts: 2813
I have been tracking the SCJP since 1997 and have been involved with several books aimed at students who are studying for it. While it certainly is not rocket science, passing the exam is not a trivial undertaking. Many, possibly most experienced programmers would not pass without explicit preparation. Many experienced programmers are not familiar with the subtleties of Threading and regular expression parsing is not even slightly obvious.
Deepak Bala
Bartender

Joined: Feb 24, 2006
Posts: 6661
    
    5

The SCJP gives you a solid foundation to work on. It certainly has helped me with the work i do in my company. I know of people who have close to three or five years experience and they dont know how the garbage collector works.

Once... one of our applications encountered an OutOfMemoryError.
One guy suggested the program catch this error and call System.gc() from the catch block. :roll:

The SCJP helps if you work towards it for three months. And why did you want to take it after working in the industry for 5 years !? Just to see if you can crack it ? I hope your company is re imbursing it.


SCJP 6 articles - SCJP 5/6 mock exams - More SCJP Mocks
hey now
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 02, 2006
Posts: 7
"..Just to see if you can crack it ? I hope your company is re imbursing it." - John Meyers

Basically. I saw sun was offering a free retake if you fail. Nice marketing campaign because it got me to give it a shot.

"What I don't understand is why you would spend the exam fee and spend the time taking the exam without an idea of what benefit it would bring you? " - Marcus Green

I wanted to answer the question, could I pass? and since I did Im not that impressed by those who have. I think SCJP being added to a resume would be more desirable IF less people passed because it would increase the distinction value. These days many have it on their resume, its passed right over almost as if its expected, like a name or phone number.

"Many, possibly most experienced programmers would not pass without explicit preparation" - Marcus Green

This is an interesting assumption...
Robbi Palacios
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 25, 2006
Posts: 96
I think these people passed because they prepared hard
enough. To tell you the truth I had a difficult time
with the exam.

What's your score by the way to post something like that?
Why won't you put your real name?

<Moderator's Snip>
[ September 03, 2006: Message edited by: Robbi Palacios ]
[ September 03, 2006: Message edited by: David O'Meara ]

Sun Certified Java Programmer 5.0
Deepak Bala
Bartender

Joined: Feb 24, 2006
Posts: 6661
    
    5

<Moderator's Snip>
To Robbi:

Whoa ! easy tiger. We dont mind people holding something against the SCJP. Even i think it should include more topics and may be it should have levels of difficulty so you can say - "I belong to scjp grade 3 or 5". Lets be nice.
[ September 03, 2006: Message edited by: David O'Meara ]
hey now
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 02, 2006
Posts: 7
Geeze I thought this was a friendly forum? As for my real name if I used John Doe as my name would anyone think its real? Maybe I should have just made up a "real name" like half the people in the forum. It appears I might have offended you, so revealing my score would only insult you further.

As for the level of difficulty of the exam I agree this exam WOULD be tough if I just picked up Java couple months ago. But, if I were a hiring manager and saw this on their resume it would not mean anything to me. I think everyone who is thinking about taking the exam should remember the exam is PASSABLE, Sun would like to see you pass it. Because you cant take any other exams till you do. On another note, the SCJP does not ask you a SINGLE, not a single question on Swing!! I honestly think SCJP exam should at least have a question on how to off load time intensive tasks off the event-q and onto a new threads, but ALSO how to (if need) correctly tie back into the event-q using SwingUtilities.invokeLater. This should be an AUTOMATIC failure question where if you answer it wrong you FAIL. I have seen many improperly written Java Swing apps that either run slow (because painting is being blocked) or GUI does not update correctly because Swing components are being updated on non-event-q threads. If Sun wants to increase the reputation of Swing being robust they should add these questions. Anyway I digress.
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18876
    
  40

Geeze I thought this was a friendly forum? As for my real name if I used John Doe as my name would anyone think its real? Maybe I should have just made up a "real name" like half the people in the forum. It appears I might have offended you, so revealing my score would only insult you further.


"hey now",

Please note that the policy on screen names is not optional. Please take a moment to fix it, or your account may be suspended.

As for your question, if you had used "John Doe", you will get challenged. Furthermore, if you feel that some other poster is using a fake name, please feel free to bring it to our attention in the JavaRanch forum.

Henry


Books: Java Threads, 3rd Edition, Jini in a Nutshell, and Java Gems (contributor)
Barry Gaunt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 03, 2002
Posts: 7729
Please keep cool folks. I have used moderator's powers to keep things a little more civil.

"hey now", please change your display name as requested. Yes, John Doe as an obviously fake name is not acceptable. Please comply to our site's Naming Policy
Jon Snow
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 03, 2006
Posts: 4
Not all of us have five years of experience. For a beginner like me, who has no formal experience and no CS degree, getting a certification is at least one tool for getting your foot in the door, and hopefully something to help get around the "you can't get a job without experience, but you can't get experience without already having experience" conundrum.

Also, as someone new to the language, preparing for the exam lets me know that I'm studying the "right" stuff, and not just what some textbook author thought would make good material off the top of their head. This is what the people who actually made the language think I should know, so I give it a lot of weight.
Marcus Green
arch rival
Rancher

Joined: Sep 14, 1999
Posts: 2813
"Many, possibly most experienced programmers would not pass without explicit preparation" - Marcus Green

This is an interesting assumption...

It's an observation based on reading every public comment I could possibly find on the subject every day since the first version of the exam (for JDK 1.0). I have also received thousands of emails from exam candidates over this period. When someone suggests that the exam is not a reasonably difficult task to achieve, I am left assuming they are either very smart or lying. Congratulations if you are smart.
Amit Batra
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 361
Dude if you like swing and all the other stuff so much take the 1.2 exam and if you think this exam doesnt cover important stuff then make your own exam(simulator/mock) and let everyone benefit from it. We all are learning from each other's knowledge here. . And why just take the exam because sun had a promotional scheme that wouldve allowed you to retake it in the unlikely event you didnt pass? you couldve just taken a few mock exams(pretended you were taking the scjp) and saved your money(being that you dont think highly of Sun and their profiteering ways). Then you couldve come to this forum and been like I took a mock exam and dont see what the big deal is.
hey now
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 02, 2006
Posts: 7
"Then you couldve come to this forum and been like I took a mock exam and dont see what the big deal is."

I fell for this trap before with cisco when I was getting my CCNA and CCNP certs. They put out mock exams which was 10 times easier than the actual exams. My theory was cisco would "sucker" you into taking the exam by building up your confidence with an easy mock exam. so with this mind set I figured sun would act the same way so I did not even bother taking a SCJP mock exam. I did google for some brain dumps of sample questions and quickly learned the following. If you think Sun is testing your ablity on enum's or switch statements they really have a final member being modified or a member being accessed from static context, etc. For those who have not taken the exam always keep this in mind on every question "If the question were obvious then everyone would pass" This way you wont waste time working through complex logic that wont even compile. Although some questions on the exam dont even have as a possible answer "does not compile". So quickly take a look at possible answers to see if you need to "code scan" for compilation first.
Marcus Green
arch rival
Rancher

Joined: Sep 14, 1999
Posts: 2813
Could you take us through the logic of taking and passing an exam and not putting it on your resume? Do you put other certifications on your resume?
[ September 03, 2006: Message edited by: Marcus Green ]
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18876
    
  40

"hey now",

At this point, it is obvious that you are simply ignoring requests to fix your screen name.

As already mentioned, the policy is not optional. Please fix your screen name before your next post, or your account may be suspended.

Thanks,
Henry
hey now
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 02, 2006
Posts: 7
Well a resume implies that Im looking for work which Im not and hope I dont have to anytime soon. It would be interesting to know what hiring managers think of a cert on a resume. chances are they dont know what you actually need to know or how good of an exam taker you need to be to obtain it, so they may not actually care. Are there any hiring managers reading this board that would like to comment?

Cisco certs are only good for 3 years. If I needed to update my res I probably wont add it because I think they "expired". I logged into certmanager and noticed SCJP has no exp date. But I will only add it to my res if there is room. At my level I think a hiring manager is more interested in the projects I worked on over the years vs a cert they may not even recognize. Besides I took these exams to measure my skill level why cant it be just for that? Its interesting because I was looking to see if anyone else out there would do the same thing. I got the same hostile responses years ago on some cisco cert boards.

Well maybe the hostile response is because my name does not conform to "policy". It seems like Henry is getting a little heated about it. Yes I was ignoring you Henry. Well folks it appears henry is about to saddle up on the high horse at the javaranch and invoke "moderator's powers" (like Barry) probably killing my account. I think many would like to see me leave anyway. Good luck to all those preparing for the SCJP!
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18876
    
  40

Well maybe the hostile response is because my name does not conform to "policy". It seems like Henry is getting a little heated about it. Yes I was ignoring you Henry. Well folks it appears henry is about to saddle up on the high horse at the javaranch and invoke "moderator's powers" (like Barry) probably killing my account. I think many would like to see me leave anyway. Good luck to all those preparing for the SCJP!


"hey now",

We are trying to build a nice Java community here... and yes, that includes you. So no... I would not like to see you leave -- instead, I would like to see you contribute to it.

However, I do understand your point. A relationship is a two-way street. And if you feel that you can't work within this community, there is no reason for you to stay.

Good luck. And you are always welcome back, if you change your mind.

Henry
Deepak Bala
Bartender

Joined: Feb 24, 2006
Posts: 6661
    
    5


I did google for some brain dumps


:roll:
Don Brien
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 04, 2006
Posts: 6
Originally posted by Jon Snow:
For a beginner like me, who has no formal experience and no CS degree, getting a certification is at least one tool for getting your foot in the door
...
This is what the people who actually made the language think I should know, so I give it a lot of weight.


Really?!?! What kind of work can people find with SCJP? or even SCJD? Every job that I have ever come across requires BSCS/MSCS --its insane! Have you talked to those who have gone this route? Or do you just assume SCJP will turn your resume gold? Just don't get the wrong impression --thats all!

The SCJP requirements don�t cover reflection-- a very powerful and defining feature of JAVA. and unless your writing a lame-o 1970�s command line application, you will need to learn Swing. String and RegEx API just make for good exam questions (IMHO). Best of luck!
Bert Bates
author
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 14, 2002
Posts: 8815
    
    5
Hey Don,

By coincidence, you and "hey now" both mentioned Swing and you mentioned reflection. I think that a large percentage of the people taking the SCJP are headed towards, or are already in, J2EE kinds of environments. In these environments its fairly common that you would never touch Swing or reflection. The thinking of the exam creation teams has been that Swing is a really huge topic, hard to cover adequately as a portion of a short exam, and that it really doesn't apply to a lot of Java developers.

hth,

Bert


Spot false dilemmas now, ask me how!
(If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much room.)
Srikanth Basa
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 06, 2005
Posts: 241
I agree what Bert Bates says.

The first and foremost thing I would like to ensure as a J2EE programmer is Im good at Core Java. After that I am interested on getting into Servlets/JSP/EJB stuff and there is no way where I need to use Swings !

Yes, I am interested in learing it but when I know I'm not going to use it I don't thing it makes sense for me to read a lot and lot of stuff on Swings just for taking SCJP.

May be you have been using till now, but I don't think that is the case with a many programmers here in J2EE world.
Deepak Bala
Bartender

Joined: Feb 24, 2006
Posts: 6661
    
    5

I guess it all comes down to how much the SCJP has helped you. Whether you can deliver quality code is not dependant on the degree that you have or the certifications that you have taken. I know CS graduates that dont know how a for loop works. I know of a guy that took the SCJP exam last year and it took him three weeks to solve a simple problem in java. It boils down to how much knowledge you retain and how fast you can learn. Of course you need something to build such knowledge on. A strong foundation can help you learn faster. The SCJP helped me get there. Sitting in a classroom has never worked for me and i make use of these certifications to do a better job. For others it might be the other way around.

As far as employers are concerned, i agree that some people dont know what the SCJP is. Some employers prefer candidates that have a SCJP certificate. The SCJP alone wont get you anywhere. In my opinion it is a small part of the bigger picture.
Jon Snow
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 03, 2006
Posts: 4
Originally posted by Don Brien:


Really?!?! What kind of work can people find with SCJP? or even SCJD? Every job that I have ever come across requires BSCS/MSCS --its insane! Have you talked to those who have gone this route? Or do you just assume SCJP will turn your resume gold? Just don't get the wrong impression --thats all!


Haha, don't worry, I have no misconceptions as to how far a certification by itself will get me, but I do think it's certainly better than nothing and probably at least a step in the right direction. I'm well aware that WHO you know often ends up having more weight than WHAT you know when it comes to getting a job.

That being said, I really hope that getting a programming job will not require me to spend another 4+ years in school simply to have the "right" degrees, especially when I already have a bachelor's (even if it is in music ) and when I can teach myself the programming part in a fraction of the time it would take to learn the same material in school.
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18876
    
  40

Originally posted by Jon Snow:

That being said, I really hope that getting a programming job will not require me to spend another 4+ years in school simply to have the "right" degrees, especially when I already have a bachelor's (even if it is in music ) and when I can teach myself the programming part in a fraction of the time it would take to learn the same material in school.


Jon,

I wouldn't belittle that Bachelor degree too much, as I can't imagine the difference being more than a year or so. Most people don't specialize until the Junior year anyway, and even then, there are many requirements during the last two years. So the number of classes to get that BSCS is definitely not four more years.

Another issue is that the CS degree is actually relatively new. I think it didn't really take full traction until the early 90s (or late 80s). And most programmers who has more than 15 years of experience don't have a CS degree. In my case, I have a Bachelor of Engineering in Chemical Engineering.

Summary... that Bachelor degree of yours should help so don't go hiding it...

Henry
Jon Snow
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 03, 2006
Posts: 4
Originally posted by Henry Wong:

I wouldn't belittle that Bachelor degree too much, as I can't imagine the difference being more than a year or so. Most people don't specialize until the Junior year anyway, and even then, there are many requirements during the last two years. So the number of classes to get that BSCS is definitely not four more years.
Henry


I should clarify that I meant 4+ years for both a BSCS AND an MSCS. I'm assuming it would take at least another two for the BSCS (there's a LOT of math I never took as a music major) and two for the MSCS. Although I'd do it if absolutely necessary, I have to admit that having no obligation to go to class after 17 years of non-stop school makes going back to being a full-time student seem like sheer drudgery I suppose the only thing worse is not having a job because you don't want to go back to school
Don Brien
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 04, 2006
Posts: 6
A music degree is a lot different from having a degree in CS. Yes-- Mr. Wong is correct many senior members in the industry today probably don�t hold a degree in CS-- but probably math or related engineering degree. I would not hide the fact you have it, but I would not expect it to have the same clout as a degree in an engineering related field that is not CS. Liberal arts majors are typically easy and students can coast through simply by "doing the work" or writing a paper or two. Not saying that is what you did or how you had it-- just how I saw it when I attended (unnamed) college. Having been through an accredited CS program I can comment by saying: CS is challenging, lots of programming (and no, it DOES start from day one!), lots of math and science calculus, abstract, proofs, theory, algorithms, discreet, stats, physics, chemistry, combinatorics. The focus on the major was not how many languages you could get under your belt (although it was quite a few including the functional ones), but more so the semantics-- so you could apply those skills to any language. The theoretical aspect of the degree proves you can think abstractly, logically and be extremely self-disciplined. There are many that hold degrees in CS and don�t have work in the field of their choice. I bet many looking for certification are looking for an easy way out of NOT having to get a degree.
Amit Batra
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 361
Which is why i wish there was a mathematics certification . But I think we may be putting just a tad bit much emphasis on a "degree". I think the education system is quite outdated. Ofcourse there are industries that tend not to add an elephants weight in knowledge each month such as economics etc, and for those disciples I think a degree makes sense. But as far as the IT industry goes there is a vast disconnect between whats new and happening and what industry is doing and what universities will teach you. There are kids nowadays that are certifying themselves at the age of 10-11, this may be extraordinary now but who knows one day will most probably become the norm. and if it takes on avg 3/4 months to acquire a cert a 13 yr old could have about 20 certs by the time he gets out of high school. If i were a hiring manager I would rather go for someone like that then someone with a CS degree which just tell me this guy can think. nowadays you dont need an education you need training. you need to decide what you want to do early on and then train train train. I do agree having a mathematics background does help which is why schools shld be probably 3 hours long and all they should teach is math everything else is a waste of time. the rest of the time shld be spent on the pursuit on what interests each student.
Deepak Bala
Bartender

Joined: Feb 24, 2006
Posts: 6661
    
    5


I bet many looking for certification are looking for an easy way out of NOT having to get a degree.


Whats so hard about a CS degree ? It really depends on what the university teaches you and computer science is not hard. In fact nothing is really hard to understand if the person reading it has a penchant for the subject.

Drawing art is really hard for me. I cant possible draw a human face as well as others can. Some people just have it in them to do better in some fields. The people who take certifications dont necessarily try to present it as a surrogate for a CS degree for crying out loud. No body would buy it ! They are trying to get an advantage over those who dont have certifications as far as employment is concerned. The rest are trying to make sure they get a firm grip on the language.

Like is said... i know people with a CS degree that dont know how a for loop works. A CS degree means nothing unless it has the same uniform standard world wide and thats just plain impossible.
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18876
    
  40

Liberal arts majors are typically easy and students can coast through simply by "doing the work" or writing a paper or two.


Spoken like a true Math or Science Major ...

Seriously... When I attended college (The Cooper Union, NYC), I found the liberal arts courses harder than the math and science courses. It is just a ton more stuff to remember on the liberal arts side.

For example, trying to keep track of the relationships (and stories) in greek mythology was ridiculous. Depending on the myth, one character could be the mother, the sister, or the daughter (or two out of the three) of another character.

And the course on Vietnam ... hmmmm... arghhh.... never mind.

Henry
Don Brien
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 04, 2006
Posts: 6
Originally posted by John Meyers:
In fact nothing is really hard to understand if the person reading it has a penchant for the subject.
...
Like is said... i know people with a CS degree that dont know how a for loop works.


I have seen many people try so hard to become a computer scientist; some even believed it is what they were destined to do-- But they still failed out due to difficulty. Have you been through a CS program yourself? Do you think you could hack-it at MIT because of a strong penchant for the subject mater? Im curious to know which school produced a CS major, but lacked understanding of a for loop? Some schools are accredited while others are not.
Don Brien
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 04, 2006
Posts: 6
This thread is very long, but does it answer whats the point?

My spin, first-- Suppose you been a C++ programmer for 10 years and wanted to switch to Java? SCJP may help you in that direction. Many C++ programmers think they know Java just because most of the syntax is the same. They may even put Java on their resume. If you were to hire this person that has spent the last 10 years using C++ would you believe they know some Java unless they had SCJP on their resume? You may have to waste an hour or two giving them a programming test in Java to know they were not full of sh*t

Secondly--I think there might be a greater emphasis on the SCJP in countries like India. I think its more valued over there? Where many technical recruiters here dont even know what SCJP is.
Jon Snow
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 03, 2006
Posts: 4
Originally posted by Don Brien:
Liberal arts majors are typically easy and students can coast through simply by "doing the work" or writing a paper or two.


Although this is getting way off topic, I simply can't let that statement slide.

That's a mighty wide blanket statement there, but don't worry, it's a common misconception. I would challenge you to take any advanced music theory course at the university I attended and then tell me that it's not every bit as difficult as any math course you can come up with. In fact, there is an AWFUL lot of math and logic in music (ever studied a piece by a certain mathematical genius by the name of Johann Sebastian Bach?).

It all boils down to the individual. I know several math majors who went through every advanced math class in the book and who coasted through by simply "doing the work" because it was easy for them. Some of those same people couldn't see the beauty in a well-written classical piece of music if it slapped them in the face. True, I don't know any MIT graduates who "coasted through" the program there, but I also don't know any Julliard graduates who "coasted through" the "easy" liberal arts programs at that school. When you're talking about world-class universities, few people have an easy time graduating regardless of the field they're in.

Back on topic: Personally, I've never believed for a second that a certification is a substitute for a degree, nor do I believe that any employer would think that. On the other hand, I don't believe a degree magically makes you a better programmer than someone who simply studied on their own and got some certifications. Again, it all boils down to the person in question. That goes for both employees AND employers.
[ September 05, 2006: Message edited by: Jon Snow ]
Dave Reinhardt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 07, 2006
Posts: 54
there are many programmers who are also musicians, I think they are similar disciplines on many levels. Several of my csci profs had undergraduate music degrees.
Pritesh Nateshan
Greenhorn

Joined: Apr 21, 2006
Posts: 8
Well so far I have read the replies on all of you and it made me curious to post my views on the SCJP exams. Well it wouldn't be a big deal for people who work for years and years in Java and have lot work experience to back up on their resume. But the SCJP exam does matters for people who are fresh graduates and who want to explore more on the language. I have been preparing for the SCJP 1.5 and i have learned more and more things out of the Java language. I totally agree with Bates as why Swing is not an important topic for the SCJP anymore. I have experience in working wit J2EE architecture and yes java language is more bending towards the enterprise side and its all about coding logic and business logic in the back and not about making the Swing components look good or on any details of it. "hey now" if you are still on the forum, forget about the swing components and go through some core component on the J2ee architecture, you will definately understand what is the whole point of the SJCP exams.
 
GeeCON Prague 2014
 
subject: SCJP so whats the point?