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What happened to the Nuclear debate?

Alan Wanwierd
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 30, 2004
Posts: 624
I was looking forward to reading some thoughts on that one - and it seems to have been axed!!!

Why dont thread just get LOCKED instead of deleted? How am I supposed to know if it was my comments that offended a moderator - or if the whole thread went off on a wayward tangent that had nothing to do with me if the holw thing juts disappears? Surely just fREEZING the thread would allow people to actually see what was deemed offensive and therefore be in a better position to avoid offence in future?!
Warren Dew
blacksmith
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 04, 2004
Posts: 1332
    
    2
I think the moderators enjoy playing with your head, Adrian.
Gregg Bolinger
GenRocket Founder
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 15299
    
    6

Well, there wasn't much debate going on. There were only 2 responses so even if we left it here there wasn't anything to read.

As far as other threads that go on and on and then we trash it...It's just a matter of keeping things nice, neat, clean, and friendly. If someone acts up in a bar, you don't lock them up in the bar. You send them to the jail house. No one at the bar wants to sit and look at a trouble maker. Same thing here.


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R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
If someone acts up in a bar, you don't lock them up in the bar. You send them to the jail house. No one at the bar wants to sit and look at a trouble maker. Same thing here.


In school student get punishment infront of all other student so that others can learn from his mistake.
If no one would know the reason of punishment then they would tend to repeat it again.


"Thanks to Indian media who has over the period of time swiped out intellectual taste from mass Indian population." - Chetan Parekh
Alan Wanwierd
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 30, 2004
Posts: 624
Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
Well, there wasn't much debate going on. There were only 2 responses so even if we left it here there wasn't anything to read.


In that case I know what the 2 responses were..
original post - "Nuclear weapons are profilferating - are we doomed?"
mine - I merely raised the question that modern warfare is fought in the realms of PR rather than weaponry and therefore nuclear weapons are too crude and are of little or no use.

1 other response - which hinted that perhaps the UK might have learnt that lesson..

Where's the offence that was SO extreme the thread got deleted? No warning? No "Please stay off topic X" message, no "Stick to the original question".. just plain ***BANG**** [thread disappears in a puff of black smoke]
Alan Wanwierd
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 30, 2004
Posts: 624
Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
If someone acts up in a bar, you don't lock them up in the bar. You send them to the jail house.


And if someone is evicted from a bar and sent to jail its reasonable to tell them why - you dont just lock people up without telling them why!!

(I'll bite my tongue and NOT go off about certain parts of the world where people DO get locked up without any reason! )
Max Habibi
town drunk
( and author)
Sheriff

Joined: Jun 27, 2002
Posts: 4118
Since this is a discussion about Javaranch policies, I'm moving it to the javaranch forum.

M


Java Regular Expressions
Gregg Bolinger
GenRocket Founder
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 15299
    
    6

To sum up...We the moderators want to keep this a friendly place for java greenhorns. And yes, that even means in MD. Whether a post is currently offensive or has the potential to be offensive, we will take action.

Every moderator here views threads a bit differently. We are all individuals with our own brains and our own thoughts. This means that an offensive post to one of us may not be offensive to someone else. Usually the likelyhood that someone else thinks that post is offensive is higher than the likelhood of someone else thinking it was ok. So it's gone.

We are not required to inform everyone why a post was trashed. We have explained many times that if your post disappears it is probably because a staff member saw the danger in it and removed it. That is what you must assume in this case, and every case after this. It's been discussed to death.

You are more than welcome to question us why your post was removed. Whether you get an answer depends on whether or not the moderator who removed it answers you. I have no idea who moved the nuclear post to the Trash Can. But I agree with their decision. It had very flamable qualities just in the initial statement.

Now do we really need to waste more time wondering about a thread that was started in *Meaningless Drivel* ? If it meant something to you, it probably doesn't belong in a meaningless forum.
Jayesh Lalwani
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 05, 2004
Posts: 502
With all due respects, I don't think the "going to jail" analogy is valid. Deleting a thread is more likegoing to a noisy table in the bar and taking the drinks away. It would be "going to jail" if the posters were kicked out and banned.

Another side-effect of deleting threads is that it doesn't stop people from arguing. It just makes them start arguing from the begginning in a differrent thread. No one gets closure. It's more like all the people at the noisy table walk away, act nice while the bouncers are looking and start again when the bouncers' backs are turned.

I will admit that I like arguments. And sometimes a thread goes into a heated debate, and I would be waiting for a response from a certain poster, and BAM the thread's gone. There's no closure. People like me probably keep hounding Meaningless Drivel for a similar topic to come up. I understand, people like me can get kicked out too, so I really try not entering into "hot" threads in here. I really do!! Sometimes it's so damn hard!! A few times I have spent a good 20 minutes in composing a post that I think will drive a stake through the heart of the other person's argument, and I submit it and the thread's gone. Just like that!1 And I'm like ""Wha?? that was the best post ever!!!" I know it wasn't, but it just feels like that when you are about to hit the "Post Reply" button. I know I shouldn't be going into MD anymore because I will get in trouble, and everytime I open JavaRanch, I look at the link to MD, and say to myself "Don't go there!! Don't go there!! Ahh you went there!!". That's because there's no closure!!

Anyways, I undersand that this MB is Java-oriented, and non-technical discussions are not really appreciated. I try to keep my arguing on another board that is centered around debates. But, sometimes it's just hard, and I apologize if I have caused the mods any grief. Also, I'm not saying that Javaranch should change it's policy. I think this policy is fine as it is for JavaRanch. Just putting my theory about why people might care about their posts more than they should, and why similar inflammable topics keep coming up again and again
David O'Meara
Rancher

Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 13459

...I don't think the "going to jail" analogy is valid...the posters were kicked out and banned.
I agree, but all we've proved is that it sin't a perfect analogy. I think we understand the original pupose.

No one gets closure.
We don't offer or promise closure, that's not what we're here for. Another lesson we've learnt from MD is that in many cases there is no closure - a thread continues until we're forced to close it. The 'heated' threads are more likely to behave this way, requiring us to close them sooner.

And sometimes a thread goes into a heated debate...A few times I have spent a good 20 minutes in composing a post that I think will drive a stake through the heart of the other person's argument, and I submit it and the thread's gone. Just like that!
Sounds like exactly the sorts of threads we've been forced to avoid. It would be nice to allow active, spiritted debate, but that would require all participants to act in a reasonable and logical manner at all times. Many people behave this way, but it's the few that don't who spoil it for everyone, and the moderation overhead is just too hard. Sorry to say this, but if you want this sort of discussion then you should expect them to be closed, and no-one may be to blame.

To sum up my own feelings, I guess we hope that by closing the thread sooner rather than later posters will be more careful about the topics they start and maybe look to discuss them elsewhere. I agree that it is reasonable to think this thread was OK (without knowng the specifics, I didn't read it), but it is up to the particular moderator to decide where the conversation is going.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
It was nuked. As far as I was concerned it had crossed the line by the third post.
David Harkness
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 07, 2003
Posts: 1646
Originally posted by Jason Menard:
It was nuked.
That's a prime example of why nuclear proliferation---oh, uh, never mind.
Ilja Preuss
author
Sheriff

Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 14112
Originally posted by R K Singh:
In school student get punishment infront of all other student so that others can learn from his mistake.
If no one would know the reason of punishment then they would tend to repeat it again.


The intent of deleting threads is not punishment. And if we find that people don't learn what to post in MD, and what not, *and* if we find that it's a problem to us, we can start thinking about what to do. (And frankly, punishment wouldn't be on the top of my list.)

Until then, just deleting the threads will serve our needs just well.


The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Think only on those things that are in line with your principles and can bear the light of day. The content of your character is your choice. Day by day, what you do is who you become. Your integrity is your destiny - it is the light that guides your way. - Heraclitus
paul wheaton
Trailboss

Joined: Dec 14, 1998
Posts: 20488
    ∞

How to manage MD has become one of the longest discussions we have ever had on JavaRanch.

In the end, we've settled on being rather heavy handed in that forum. Anything less leads to too many headaches.

Since all of our staff (including me!) is chipping in here on a volunteer basis, I think that the act of moderation should come with very few requirements. I'm grateful that the modertator took the time to clean things up a bit.

I suppose if moderators were paid the big bucks, then we could perform a service of thoroughly communicating with each poster about why their stuff may have been deleted. In my experience, this can take as much as 60 hours per deleted post as the author needs to point out my ignorance, my poor lineage, my stupidity, my arrogance and the many, may ways that the personage relates to fecal matter.

I kinda like the conclusion that we came to a year or two ago: if somebody cares about a message being deleted, it must not have been "Meaningless Drivel".


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