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Frustrated with the java job search

Lalitha Chandran
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2003
Posts: 92
Hi,
I just wanted to share my java job hunting experiences with every one. I am very confident in servlets,jdbc and rmi. I am trying to get some thing in those areas. But i am really frustrated with my job search. I am getting good response but after i clearly mentioned in my resume that i am good in only these areas. Every body is asking me if i have com/dcom,2-3 years of CORBA or EJB. Literrally they are hanging up on me if i said no. I am so disappointed to see that nobody cares for the scjp after all the hardwork we put into that to become one. Is it really very hard to get a java job with out any EJB or CORBA exp. I think once i start learning EJB and become thorough with they will come up with some other thing. One more thing is it very hard to find somehing in Baltimore. Is any body else also looking for a job in Baltimore may be we can share our experiences. How is the java job market in VA,DC and MD areas.
Please give me some tips.
Thanks!
Fred Abbot
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 01, 2000
Posts: 300
if iwere you i would look for something more general where say rmi as aplus but not required bec.since your going in as an expert in these things it automatically goes with the other things which you do know i recently got a job with a company looking for a senior level server side programmer when i went on the interview i was asked alot of basic java and then we moved to the server side rmi,servlets,jsp,ejb,xml and i explained to the guy that i worked with servlets and rmi but not the rest so he was like confused how did you do rmi and not corba after going through everything and i was being honest about my knowledge he asked me how long to learn ejb i told him on a project with at least one team member that know it well 1 week and then i will be able to code and ask for help when needed
he then made me an offer on the spot not a great offer but a decent one with the understanding of areview in 3 months
and if i can pass a interview at that point on ejb and xml
i would be loking at a salary of 6 figures but regardless i am doing well here doing more then my share in reg java and holding my own in the rest with some help from my manager with ejb
good luck
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
You posted this at two places....
Look into the programmer cert post of yours...you have a
contact.
Also, one other link to pacify your frustration (not related to jobs). This is
more of a philosophy lesson .....check it out...
I have learnt that there is nothing that anger or frustration
can achieve (not that I don't get angry or frustrated).
Hope you realize your dreams soon .....
Regds.
- satya
Mirela Muntean
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 13
I too am having a frustrating Java job hunt.
I busted my tail to pass the SCJP2 exam with a 90;
it took me 8 months to study. I have some mainframe
programming experience, but no on-the-job
Java experience. I'm not asking for the world; I
enjoy this stuff. It seems to me that companies
don't care about the person applying, just
whether or not they have experience! I had one
recruiter tell me I should go back to mainframe.
Where on earth do these Java people get their
experience? Just venting ...
Eric Barnhill
Rancher

Joined: Feb 25, 2000
Posts: 233

I think it's good to share discontent with the job hunt (which I too am on). No one likes to feel like they're the only one being shut out of a club.
One would think the SCJP plus experience in other languages, ought to open a door for a junior position. I wonder if the recruiters are making informed judgments or if they are just going "by the book" in who they try to recruit, and making a knee-jerk reaction about experience.
The hardest part of any field is breaking in I suppose. There have been some nice postings here lately from people who took an awfully long time to land that first Java job (someone said two years I think?). It's been emphasized that you can't be judgmental in shopping yourself around: just offer your wares, and if you get a no, head for the next opportunity without looking back. It's not necessarily anything you have to do.
Easier said than done, right?
Eric
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Eric:
Well said.
Also, I would suggest that we shouldn't get
deterred by what someone says. If one prospective employeer
shuts off the door, let him/her go. Don't let that person
let you down. Look back at your skills and have confidence
in yourself. I mean you have already done your SCJP right!
Sit back and think abt those days and your hardwork you did.
Getting thru the exam was not easy either, but we could do it.

I personally know some people who are working in java for the
last two or more years but they say SCJP is a lot of work and they can't handle it. So I think having SCJP means a lot to me.
I know its not enough, but the best thing is it proves my
capabilities, my determination, my hardwork and my future vision
. Before shutting off the door I wonder how many people recognise this.
Every such person will only increase my determination and I
thank them for that.
Remeber every cloud has a silver lining. The best is
ahead of you, keep it going.
And I agree its frustrating at (many) times, and as Eric said
its easier said than done.
Regds.
- satya
paul wheaton
Trailboss

Joined: Dec 14, 1998
Posts: 20543
    ∞

It must have a lot to do with the town you are in.
Here in Denver, there is so much desperation for Java geeks, that companies are hiring people that have no C++ and are interested in learning Java - THEY TRAIN YOU!

permaculture Wood Burning Stoves 2.0 - 4-DVD set
Eric Barnhill
Rancher

Joined: Feb 25, 2000
Posts: 233

Yeah, speaking of Denver, the NY Times had an article on how rent is shooting up in high tech boomtowns "such as San Francisco, New York, and Denver."
Must be a pretty good place to be doing business right about now. I'm in one of the other two spots - New York - and my experience has been closer to Paul's.
Eric
Lori Battey
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 17, 2000
Posts: 37
Kansas City must not be a hot spot either... I went through a 10 week Java immersion program (at a cost of $11k!) with a very well known and respected company in town, and can hardly get anyone to speak with me. Those that do call, I can show them code, pass their tests (haven't done the scjp yet), interview with the best of them, but it all comes back to "no paid experience".
I'm very motivated to succeed in this field. I've taken the initiative. What's with the companies that won't even give you the opportunity to work in a junior level position for 6 months to show what you can do?? Where are all the "IT jobs that are going unfilled" for lack of qualified people??
Sense my frustration???


Lori Battey<br />SCJP2
Ron Moddesette
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 19, 2000
Posts: 17
Lori, I'm from K.C also, but currently programming in Smalltalk, but am learning Java to make transition later this year. I spoke with a Headhunter and he gave a good tip. If you are new programmer, do not go through headhunter/contracting firms because Employers do not want to pay premium (headhunter fees)for junior employees they will have to train. You should go directly to the employer and eliminate any middle parties.
Bottom line is as Junior developer, you want to keep your hiring cost as low as possible.
If you have already been going directly to perspective employers, all I can say is keep trying.
Good luck,
Ron.
Tony Alicea
Desperado
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 3222
    
    5
Also! Consider SCPJ2 Certification! If you paid $11K (was that correct!?) for a class, you should be able to pass Certification with a high score!
Good luck.
PD: The advice of going direct is excellent!
[This message has been edited by Tony Alicea (edited July 06, 2000).]


Tony Alicea
Senior Java Web Application Developer, SCPJ2, SCWCD
Patrick Krook
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 27, 2000
Posts: 54
Most junior guys should go direct to companies willing to train. For everything but a Help Desk spot, I'm inclined to say that consulting or working through a headhunter would not only be a low pobability situation, but a detrimental one to someone with a brand new skill, needing time to honw it on the job. The level of expectation to 'hit the ground running' combined with fewer training opportunities makes bad place to start out. (there are always exceptions of course)

On getting the door slammed when you don't represent a perfect fit:
Often times, clients want 10 years of Java when only been out for 5. Then they want 5 years of Websphere experience . In addition, most recruiters don't know the technology well enough to 'sell around' the specifics that the cleint 'thinks' they need. They (both the client an recruiter) don't even know what the SCJP entails so they can say, 'Hey this is worth a year of on the job development experience.' So they paint by numbers, passing up good talent that could be up to speed in 2wks.
Run screaming from firms who do not have enough relationship with clients, or technical insight to be able to see past a comparative list of acronyms.
My $0.02
-Pat
------------------
"Trying to win an argument with an irrational person is like trying to teach
a cat to snorkel by providing written instructions."
--Scott Adams


To learn more about me, visit:<br /> <a href="http://www.siliconcorn.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">www.siliconcorn.com</a> <br /> <br />To see all of our hot jobs in Chicagoland, check out:<br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.siliconcorn.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">www.siliconcorn.com</a>
Tony Alicea
Desperado
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 3222
    
    5
Patrick:
My experience was like you said. It's documented here at the Ranch in:
http://www.javaranch.com/ubb/Forum37/HTML/000019.html
Patrick Krook
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 27, 2000
Posts: 54
Oi Ve! What a hair raiser! Sounds like after having your feet held to the fire the first week you landed on them unharmed. How are you fairing now?
Tony Alicea
Desperado
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 3222
    
    5
Patrick:
The answer is in this other more recent tale :

http://www.javaranch.com/ubb/Forum37/HTML/000045.html
Patrick Krook
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 27, 2000
Posts: 54
Tony,
Not only have you landed on your feet, you are sitting in what we call, the 'cat bird seat'. Congratulations!
Enjoy it!
-Pat
Lori Battey
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 17, 2000
Posts: 37
Excellent advice concerning hitting the companies directly. At this point, I have been going through the online listings (mainly Dice and Monster), working with companies through referrals of people I know and newspapers. Other than the referrals (who aren't programmers), it seems like all I get are headhunters or consulting firms!
Yes Tony, I said "$11,000". They just raised the price to include a laptop loaded with JDK, Visual Cafe and Visio... check it out at http://www.step1inc.com/fasttrack/javafasttrack.jsp
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
"Get on down to Texas!" Yeha!
There are more java jobs available in Austin, Texas than anyplace else I know....all levels from junior to senior consultant.
If you're interested in java feel free to contact me with the area you're interested in (i.e. commercial applications, tools, embedded, Internet services, etc.) and I will respond promptly and point you in the right direction. It's a "hot" market here (pun) but the best place outside of silicon valley to be.
cheers,
Charlie ".com" Jackson
charliej@ki-soft.com

------------------
Tony Alicea
Desperado
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 3222
    
    5
I have heard similar stories about Austin (the Capital of TX).
I have also heard via the same sources that IBM is strong in that area. Not to mention a significant presence of Texas U...
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Yes, Austin's strong in many areas of technology. Other than state government and UT, the entire community is high-tech (semiconductors, computer manufacturing, call centers, software, multimedia, software R&D). Software employers include big ones (IBM, BMC, Compaq) smaller ones (360Commerce, MetroWerks,Pervasive, Trilogy, Exterprise), and lots of Internet businesses. There are at least 100 companies doing java development (applications, web, embedded, tools, services).
Charlie
inventor2000
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 01, 2000
Posts: 2
I will work for free in Java
I live in Boulder CO
Pass this information on to anyone willing to train me in Java.
thanks
inventor1984@inventor-warp-speed.com
inventor84@att.net
Greg Buell PO Box 1113 Boulder CO 80306
Phone 303 443 6270
Originally posted by Paul Wheaton:
It must have a lot to do with the town you are in.
Here in Denver, there is so much desperation for Java geeks, that companies are hiring people that have no C++ and are interested in learning Java - THEY TRAIN YOU!

Kelsey Derringer
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 16, 2000
Posts: 5
I agree, bypass the headhunters, and remember its a numbers game...you send out so many resumes, one will stick. I'm sending resumes to companies advertising for senior level Java programmers, but in my cover letter I try to sell myself, and offer to take less pay. I'm thinking, too, that almost every company can use a Java programmer.
You may also want to offer to work for free, like for the first month, but since there's a learning curve, it may take awhile to get up to speed.
I must have sent out over 100 resumes before a company gave me my first break (in a non-OO language years ago). Remember, every programmer employed today started out at entry level, and some company offerred them a job without experience.
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
I am frustated in searching job in java.I hope this can be understand only those who has all kinds of frustation.
i put all efforts in passing scjp2.but still they are asking the experience in java ,if developed application which website,or
why you are leaving to another company,or they require 2-3 years solid experinece in java.or requirement in servlets ,EJB,corba.
every thing is a little bit frustating.
at least looking for any entry level.if you have web sites developed using java ,please send the url if posiible.
thanking you
suresh.
Douglas Wolfinger
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 28, 2000
Posts: 57
Sure, it's easy to make a suggestion to go directly to the company, instead of to headhunters. Easier said than done, though. A lot of times they only give the email to the hr dept (jobs@blahblah.com), which gets so many resumes, they can't possibly look at them all. And places like cnet aren't in the phonebook, so there's no way to follow up and knock down the door.
This topic--good constructive discussion.
Nancy Heiser
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 30, 2000
Posts: 2
Not every company is adverse to training people in Java - where I work now (not an agency, I'm HR for a company) we are willing to train strong C++ candidates who really want to learn Java. I noticed someone else posted this idea and all I can say is that it's the truth (at least here). For those without any "real world" experience, all I can say is that the jobs are out there at the entry level. We've completed our hiring for jr. candidates but we brought on several people who are really learning quickly.
If someone has a number of years in c++ and wants more info on the possibility of switching/learning java please email me at nancy.heiser@aluminium.com
Christine Fuller
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 31, 2000
Posts: 2
We are having a hard time filling our Java positions in Florida also. Lots of openings but no people to fill them. We don't even get junior Java people looking to get started. I think it is because Florida does not pay as well as some of the other states where Java people can get better money.
Sudha Rajaram
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 09, 2000
Posts: 13
Hi christine,
Actually , to tell u the truth i have been looking for a entry level java programmer position in Tampa-Clearwater area for the last two months. I had attended a Job Fair at clearwater. The main reason for my not getting a job was that i did not have an H1. I had talked to nearly 25 companies in this area but i have not attended even a single technical interview. Before that itself they reject saying that they cannot sponsor H1. I was even ready to volunteer work. But it seems companies do not accept volunteer work in software industry . I am not new to the software industry. I have been working as software engineer for 2 years. But because of some unavoidable situations i am currently unemployed. I thought i will let u know my feelings regarding the job hunting experience in Tampa/Clearwater area. Currently i am studying for the Developer Exam.
Bye.
sudha
Cynthia Graham
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 31, 2000
Posts: 1
Role: Responsible for the design and development of innovative integrated commerce applications. Location: Austin, TX Expertise: Computer Science, Programmer, O-O Software Business Development, Hands-on Application Development Education: Bachelor's Degree in Computer Science or related field Requirements: Must have 3+ years of object-oriented software development (any language) and at least 1 year of Java development experience. Qualified candidate will possess strong analysis, design and programming skills, and have experience in Swing, RMI, etc. Requires BS in Computer Science or equivalent work experience. Applicant must posses effective written and verbal communication skills, and have the personality / experience to be a team leader. Responsibilities: Hands-on application development in a team setting in direct support of Client project.
Douglas Wolfinger
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 28, 2000
Posts: 57
I think there's lots of musical jobs being played. The stock opitons idea is all dried up. So the other way to make as much as you can is to keep changing jobs. The same hundred people are doing all the work. It's a problem for the experienced, like me.
Douglas Wolfinger
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 28, 2000
Posts: 57
Wait, I mean inexperienced! I have no o-o programming yet.
James Berge
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 31, 2000
Posts: 2
As a recruiter specializing in IT and Java, I agree that most of us take knee-jerk reactions to the process and should probably examine some resume's more closely before calling.
However, having said that, it is true that unless someone takes a resume seminar or some kind of comprehensive job search training, resume writing wouldn't be among someone's pantheon of skills. Truth be told, when in a job search in the IT industry, don't be afraid to list your skllset in the alphabet soup of your professon . List the skill and the amount of time spent using it.
That will go a long way toward answering a recruiters questions before they waste your time asking.
Having said that, it is unfortunate that most recruiters (being one, I inadverdently indict myself... ) are from a sales/marketing background and will sift through resumes as fast as they can to get to 'the money' . I can't stress enough the importance of looking at your relationship with a recruiter much as you would a doctor. We work for you! It is your responsibility to do two things: Be honest when answering questions, but don't be afraid to ASK questions either. If a recruiter can't answer reasonable inquiries or diplays impatience, drop them and get another one.
I can't believe some of you were hung up on ! Where is the customer service in a recruiter hanging up on a candidate ? If a recruiter did that to me, I would tell everyone I know and probably post it on discussion groups :P. Recruiters that are that impatient don't need to be in the people business .

------------------
James Berge
San Francisco, CA
Julie McCarthy
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 28, 2000
Posts: 21
I'm on the other side of the table too, like some of your other respondents (HR Mgr. at an SF software company.) I want to tell you how refreshing it is for someone to honestly list their Java skills on their resume! By now you may have found a great job, but trust me - you don't want the help of people who would treat you so rudely, or encourage you to list skill sets you aren't comfortable using. You're doing the right thing by being straightforward and it WILL pay off, if it hasn't already.
We're constantly looking for Developers with server-side, business logic experience around here. Some candidates (but usually their recruiters, no offense meant Mr. Berge) will, ah...shall we say, rewrite the resume to highlight desirable buzz words. This would be fine if the candidate actually had the experience we needed, but usually they turn out to be Web Developers in disguise, and that's not our focus right now. Who is helped by this practice? Just a colossal waste of everyone's time, and you're wise to avoid it.
We too are looking at training up strong C++'ers - but especially Smalltalk Developers. Where did they all go, anyway???


[size=10]Be alert. We need more lerts.[/size]
James Berge
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 31, 2000
Posts: 2
I say, this forum is great!
It's very refreshing to engage in frank discussion of this type.
I was wondering, where in the net may I find other discussion/user groups for JAVA?
Also, feel free to email email me direct if you have questions that need more of a detailed response than can be provided here.
The more informed you are the more effectively you can partner in your job search and the more likely it is that you'll find a home in your next job, a place to grow your skills and your nest egg.
{Julie, no offense taken. Having been in your shoes, I sympathize with the sometimes gargantuan task of sifting through the 'rough' to find a diamond. (Please email me if you have any questions or suggestions, I support strong relations between HR and recruiters).}
I am the first to admit that a lot of recruiters deserve the moniker 'headhunter'. Be wary of any recruiter that encourages resume falsehoods or exaggeration. Honesty is always the best policy, especially in IT - you can only 'act as if' for so long.

------------------
James Berge
San Francisco, CA
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
There are no other Java groups. We're the only ones. Why would you need any others?
Well OK, it's rumored that there's one other. Or so it seems. Actually I suspect that one day we'll all discover that Paul Wheaton and Marcus Green are actually the same person, with big dark circles under his eyes and lots of frequent flyer miles.
Actually I'm sure there are many others, but since I don't frequent them I don't know what to recommend, so I'll leave that to others.


"I'm not back." - Bill Harding, Twister
Julie McCarthy
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 28, 2000
Posts: 21
James - I'm pretty new to this, but checked out that "Gramps" link from JavaRanch's home page a little while ago. It very generously lists a bunch of other java sites that may be of interest. I don't know how many of them have discussion groups (I'm addicted to this site, personally), but it might be a good place from which to springboard.
Check out "meaningless drivel" if you get a chance. Some interesting stuff going on in there.
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
This issue has been going on for quite a while. I've been on the development side trying to find good java developers for the past 3 years. Anyone interested in developing a developer-lead recruiting site that automates the process and puts developers in control, javajobsdirect.com ? Let me know.
charlie jackson
charliej@ki-soft.com
 
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