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The future of Java Jobs is US?

Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 20, 2000
Posts: 31
I have received a below mentioned forwarded message. Which has created chaos and doubts regarding the change in trends of new technology in USA.
This is a high priority message. If you guys are planning to leave your current organization ...stop and think twice..
In USA the scope of java based web technologies is on the verge of death , due to Microsoft .NET Technology. A lot of persons who have filed their visa through
some companies on the bases of Java Have been denied of have been put on halt , but if you a working on Microsoft Technologies then there is still scope .The
technologies which are in major demand in USA are C++, VC++ , MFC,COM \ DCOM, ASP, Lotus Notes ,TCP\IP, WAP...
And the technologies whose future have got a question mark are JDK, EJB, Servlets, JSP...
A lot of comp, major comp like Citicorp, Motorola, AT&T, ORACLE, HP are cutting off their current manpower. One major reason is also there, that is the tremendous failure of Dot Com Comp, which was catching a lot of Java Prof. A lot of java guys who had got their H-1 has been sent back by their companies and some have been shifted to some other technologies.
So guys if you are planning to move to USA on the bases of one of these technologies.. Stop for a while and think twice
What do you people think about this?
Tony Alicea

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 3226
Completely false and an obvious "Urban Legend" this one a technical one. It was about time for such a false rumor to be started. It almost writes itself.
It's not even proper to assume that it was planted by Microsoft (they are smarter than that). It's too lame. It is obviously an "Urban Legend" planted for the benefit of the original poster having so much fun by seeing many people worried for nothing.
That is the intent behind all "urban legends".
My favorite Internet "Urban Legend" is the one about the kidney stealing where they drug you in a foreign country and you wake up in the bathtub of a hotel with a note that one of your kidneys has been taken and that you should call for emergency medical help
What is yours?

Tony Alicea
Senior Java Web Application Developer, SCPJ2, SCWCD
M Prembroke
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 03, 2000
Posts: 56
The market is weaker only because the economy is weaker. Especially for those with less than 2 years experience, the market is bad.
As a technology, Java is very strong and will be for many years. You can't go wrong with Java in my opinion.
Microsoft's .NET will likely be a big success too. Demand in 12 months will probably be stronger for C# programmers than for Java, but that's because few people will know the .NET platform.
The software market can support several development environments simultaneously- it always has. I expect people to be programming in Java in 20 years. Indeed, the biggest move to Java has yet to occur due to the shortage of programmers (which is now over)- the move from COBOL systems to Java. Insurance companies, banks, federal-state-local governments all have massive legacy systems running COBOL and similar languages for decades. All of these will need to be moved to Java over the next decade
John Coxey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 24, 2000
Posts: 503
What a bunch of crap.
Java is here to stay. It's in mainstream programming. A heck of alot of vendors now support it. For example, look at the HP inserts in the trade magazines this month. Just got the InfoWorld magazine last night and HP had an 8 page insert boasting Java stapled inside.
The US economy is in a slowdown (hopefully only until summer), so companies may not be scrambling for H1B entry-level visas as much as they were in the past. Meaning, the slowdown is across all areas - not just Java - and not just technical computer jobs.
It will be interesting to see how the US College hiring goes this spring.
On the plus side, we are not even feeling the slowdown here where I work at. Denver seems to be pretty strong. And we are still hiring, but we need people who can jump into a project with minimal supervision.
Someone who is totally entry-level is going to need a lot of hands-on teaching/training/mentoring. With the tight deadlines (our projects go from concept to delivery in 4-6 months) we can't afford to have but 1 or 2 entry level people on the staff.
I am relatively new to the project, so I put my 40-50 hours a week in, but I also put in 2-3 hours a night hitting up the books/documentation of what the project entails/does. I am also starting to learn UML/XML as part of my job - but I do the learning part on my own time.
Will an entry-level person make this type of committment? And this goes back to why so many employers want to see that college degree - as it verifies to them that you are committed to getting the task at hand completed.
So far, I have only seen one C# class being offered by a commercial vendor.
I've tried using dice.com and monster.com, and neither likes "C#" for the search string.
Furthermore, no one has really explained why I should move from Java to C#. I see O'Reilly books is publishing a C# book, supposed to be out this month. So I may take a look at it.
I certainly don't see it being as strong as Java in the near future. Remember, it's going to need debugged by the comp.sci. community. It's going to have to go through 2 or 3 releases before it's accepted.
The big issue that I have seen with Java is the graphics speed. But even this seems to have been addressed.
The graphics / Swing components in Java now display as fast as let's say Microsoft Foundation Classes. We use Pentium-III 750Mhz or better with 512MB RAM. Our graphics/tables scream.
And it takes about a week to get up to speed on Swing versus about 6 months (I eventually chucked the MFC books into the trash) for MFC.
Well, that takes me to 8:15AM - Gotta get running.

[This message has been edited by John Coxey (edited February 22, 2001).]

John Coxey
Evansville, Indiana, USA
Rajesh Hegde
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 15, 2000
Posts: 112
Hello John,
Thanks for sharing your views with us. I have read and liked all your posts on this forum. The name "John Coxey" sounds most familiar on this ranch. Your posts so far has been very educative i must say.
I agree with you that the US economy is slowing down and so not much of job oppurtunities are coming by. But Java is strong and will continue to flourish. I did my SCJP in sept 2000 ,and since Nov 2000 i have been working here in USA. But unfortunately i am not able to get so much of an experience in Java as i had expected. Entry-level guys like me are not getting much of a chance nowadays. I was lucky enough to get a chance to work on 2 java projects ,but both were for short durations lasting less than a month.
John, it would be nice if you could advice on go to go about knocking at the Doors of companies here .The one advantage for me is that i am a resident and so i need no sponsporship. Are there any companies that are willing to take less-experienced guys like me as interns , and if so how to go about approaching such companies? I am living in the silicon valley , but so far i have not got any favourable response. I will send you my resume if u do not mind, and let me know if i need to work on it.
As far as concerns expressed in India about US job market goes,i think it will good if guys with lesser experience hold on for a while in India itself. As of now, the demamd is for guys with specific skill set and with abundance of experience. Currently there are several consulting firms with lot many guys on bench. Things are improving a bit since the last week, but its certainly advisable from my point of view, that guys who have good jobs in India should hold on for a while and make the right move based on the economic conditions here. But the US certainly has demand for experienced s/w engineers.
Rajesh Hegde
Majid Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 02, 2000
Posts: 92
Hi do not how much of a slowdown in the Java market.
But a lot of H1-B visa spirants are stuck
Also regarding Urbanlegends about kidney's being removed.
it happens mainly in semi - urban areas and is a racket by itself
u really have to see it to beleive it
Your post's are always great.
I think u could qualify for Javaranch's viewer choice award ?
What say sheriff ?
John Coxey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 24, 2000
Posts: 503
Hey guys, thanks for the compliments.

Rajesh Hegde:
- You mentioned that you are in USA - Silicon Valley. You also mentioned that you are a resident.
- First advice, indicate this on your resume' and cover letter. Your name (because it is Indian - at least I think it is Indian) may automatically cause your resume to be tossed aside as the interviewer may think you need H1B sponsorship.
- Definitely need to make this clear on cover letter and resume.
- Since you will be dealing directly with companies. It's called "cold calling" as opposed to just anwering newspaper/internet advertisements - you will need a very strong cover letter, in addition to your resume.
- I would visit one of the resume' writers - with a first or second draft of the resume. Do not pay more than $100-$250 to get this done. Go to a professional, not someone who is doing this part time. Get them also to write a good cover letter for you. This is your real reason for paying the $$ to visit with them. The cover letter should be 3 or 4 paragraphs long. It should NOT be a total rehash of the resume'.
The "cold calling" cover letter is the one instance where I would deviate from the free college placement center help and hire a professional writer.
It may sound expensive, but if you get a good writer, it can both relieve your fears and get the ball rolling.
You are going to need to get to a point where you are comfortable with the resume and cover letter.
- Once you are comfortable with the resume. & cover letter. It is time to hit the market. You will need to do some research at libary for company names/addresses. They have books at Barnes & Noble that have this information for each state/metro area.
- Start sending out cover-letter & resume'. Make sure you type the envelope (not handwrite). And use stamps - not a postage meter. Remember, people are flying through envolopes & paper and you get perhaps 2 seconds to make an impression. The worst thing you want is the secretary thinking she received a piece of junk mail and chucking the whole package in the trash.
- Again, hit up the career fairs, user groups, newspapers, internet and newspapers - in addition to your "cold calling" efforts. Even if the company says 2+ years experience, fire them a resume' and cover letter.
- Talk to everyone, even head hunters. Network with friends. Just keep hammering the street - as I like to say. I really don't know of any other way to get a job.
- About a week after sending the resume'/cover letter out - follow up with a phone call - try to get an interview. If they are not hiring (typical response), ask if they know of anyone in the field who is. Turn this into a discussion. The longer you are on the phone - and the conversation is productive - the greater the chances are that they may remember you.
- The job search does not have to be a painful/mortifying experience. And here is what I do to make it more enjoyable.
- After 2 or 3 weeks, this will turn into a full-time 40+ hour per week job search. You will be doing research, answering phones, typing up letters (each one needs to have the name/address of the individual on it - and this takes time)- the body can stay the same, typing up envelopes, etc. If you do this right, you will be a busy puppy.
- Realize that you are playing the numbers game. About the only way I know how to do this. You will get an initial 95% rejection rate. Don't worry about this - it's normal - expect it. I have a 3 inch stack of rejection letters from 1994 when I first hit the job market right out of school. I hope someday to post a picture of this on this site.
- The idea is to stay so busy that you forget about the rejections. It eventually turns into a game. If you go to enough interviews - you can tell within 5 seconds whether they are serious about you are not.
- I have mentioned this before - surprised Paul Wheaton doesn't try to get some $$ from Amazon.com for links to these interview books.
- I strongly recommend, "Knock 'Em Dead - Interview Questions" by Martin Yate, and "Knock 'Em Dead - Resume's" by Martin Yate. These helped me out a lot. They are generic (not computer related) but you WILL get hit with these types of "managerial" questions at the interview.
- The job search should take 2-3 months. You should have 2 or 3 good contacts/leads after the first month - if you average sending out 15-20 letters a week.
- Regarding the job market. I started my last job search in the Oct/Nov 2000 timeframe and was utterly slammed with phone calls. I highly doubt that the market has slowed down so much that there are no entry-level Java jobs out there. I just can't imagine the economy putting on the brakes that fast.
- If you have a CS degree, and 6-12 months of ANY type of computer experience (even help desk), and the SJCP. You should be able to land a Java job. If not a Java job - at least another computer programmer job (C/C++).
- Given the fact that you are in the Silicon Valley - should make your job easier (I would think).
- In the meantime, hit up XML and EJB.
- Keep the faith and let us know how things go.
John Coxey
Rajesh Hegde
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 15, 2000
Posts: 112
Hi John,
Thanks for the detailed advice given by you. I will definitely follow your suggestion. At present i am doing my best to find an entry-level job in silicon valley(and may be even outside of CA).

Rajesh Hegde
Tom Hennigan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 25, 2001
Posts: 71
Count me in the consensus, here. The only 3 solutions to the distributed computing problem, currently, list out as CORBA, Java RMI, and Microsoft DCOM. There are some bridges from CORBA to the other 2.
Here, the Java solution is platform-independent while DCOM is not. Many planning comittees would rather augment their current platforms with new software customizations than make wholesale changes to accommodate DCOM.

Tom Hennigan<P>Sun Certified Java 2 Platform Programmer
Monty Ireland
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 03, 2000
Posts: 161
If you are entry-level take what ever you think is fair and reasonable... Getting your 1st jobs is #1.. #2 is tech...
15 yrs ago..
I took a job with GTE to learn MARK IV.... If you have not heard of it is is ok...
I'm now running my own business 'Ireland Consulting Inc'
I a multi platform database developer. I was SCJP2 certified
last summer and now i developing a system in C w/ Oracle...
Did I know C 'NO' did I know Oracle 'alittle'..
The point being.. be flexable.. and always teach yourself- something new...
Good-Luck and if you know of anyone who is hiring a database geek
that know java/jdbc/servlet who is now teaching himself J2EE..
Please let me know... and If I can help you out I will...

Multi-Platform Database Developer

Multi Platform Database Developer & DBA on E.S.T.
Sathvathsan Sampath
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 03, 2000
Posts: 96
John, I have read some of the previous posts of yours. I must say that they are really really good and very informative.
I'd just like to add to what Tom has said - if ppl say Java is down & J2EE is gone to drains blah blah ... what are the supposedly better soln for builiding distributed applications.
Currently, there are just a handful of soln (CORBA, J2EE, DCOM). Looking at these I am quite sure that j2ee is going to play a strong role. Moving onto java is not going to do any harm. Rather, say, if .NET tunrs out be more widely accepted (hopefully not), then moving to .NET shouldn't be vey difficult for all j2ee guys. Just as C++ guys don't have much prob with moving onto Java, so will be the case for java guys to learn C# or whatever.
Java is to stay and for long

- Sathvathsan Sampath

- Sathvathsan Sampath
a hui
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 14, 2000
Posts: 39
Hello John,
You gave a very good summary for job hunting techniques and I find it very useful. Could you please comment about the on-line job hunting sites? I've been trying to land a job using them by sending my resume via email but with very little response. It's much easier and faster for the job seeker to send a resume and cover letter electronically rather than by convential mail. But I'm not sure which method is more fruitful, what do you think?
John Coxey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 24, 2000
Posts: 503
a hui:
In reply to your request reagarding us-mail vs e-mail:
My last job search (Oct/Nov 2000) involved only e-mail. I did not send out any paper resume's. The reason being that I was utterly swamped with phone calls about 3 days after I had posted my resume on Dice and Javajobs.
I would believe that e-mail is the way to go. This is why I have both a text version and an MS-Word version of my resume. Some of the job sites (especially corporate like Lucent) only take text version resume's.
You can always follow-up with a paper (us-resume') and cover letter. One nice thing about e-mail, you don't need a great cover letter. Mine was like 6 sentences (2 paragraphs) long.
The reason I feel that this negative hype about the Java job market is false, is that I was totally slammed with calls/interviews back in Oct/Nov. I ended up with several great offers to move (relocation paid by the company) from Philadelphia,PA out to Denver,CO. Relocation of this distance is a considerable expense for a company.
I just can't believe the bottom dropped out of the Java market this fast. (4 or 5 months).
What I think has happened. The market has softened somewhat. Note that I said softened - not crashed.
Why hire H1B people if there are USA people that you can hire?
Bottom line on the USA Java job situation, I think that companies are grabbing USA people and thus the H1B market has softened quite a bit.
Back to your question - why is the job search taking so long?
1. If you are from India (H1B) - this could be a problem due to the soft Java market and reasons explained above.
2. Look at your resume after it has been posted to a job site - can you read it. Sometimes the document gets corrupted and you can't read it. Happend to me both on dice and javajobs. Basically, I just deleted the old post and resubmitted my resume in text format again - and things worked fine.
3. If you are from USA (US-Citizen), but have Indian/Chineese name, make sure you indicate on resume and cover letter that you are a US-Citizen. You may be getting skipped over just because of your name. Companies may think you need H1B just by looking at your name. I know, not fair, but it happens and I think it happens alot.
Note: It is illegal for an interviewer to ask if you are a US-Citizen. They can only ask you if you are "legally authorized" to work in USA. But it is perfectly ok for you to volunteer this information on your resume/cover letter.
Would wish someone who has done interview search in USA (USA-based and not needing H1B sponsorship) in the past month would share their story. Would enlighten the group as to how the market really is.
John Coxey
John Coxey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 24, 2000
Posts: 503
A followup....
One place that a paper resume may be better than an e-mail, is if you have a person's name/title that actually works for the company.
The reason being that a paper resume may lay around someone's desk (at least that's the theory) longer than an e-mail sitting in someone's mailbox.
Your job then would be to followup the paper resume with a phone call. You should indicate in your cover letter that you will be contacting this person by phone.
The goal here being to get in the door and score a major interview.
With e-mails - they tend to go to recruiters/headhunter/human resouces. And usually you are sending out so many that it's hard to followup with a phone call - usually because the company doesn't list one.
Just my two cents.
John Coxey
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