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JAVA is DEAD!!!

Tualha Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2000
Posts: 287
Dear All,
A very SAD Hey!!
I was literaly in tears today when a recruitement agency in new delhi, told me that java is gone now, it's dead. He says i should switch to some other technology if i need to be in the market. he says the in things are microsoft's VB.Net and XML.
I am very very upset!!

can somebody please tell me what should I do?
Bye,
Tualha Khan


SCJP2, BEA WLS 6.0, DB2 UDB 7.1
bill bozeman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 30, 2000
Posts: 1070
IGNORE THEM!!! They sound like they are backed by Microsoft
Applets are not as popular anymore, but server side Java is becoming even more common place. There are a lot more sites where I notice Servlets and JSP being used than before. Don't worry, Java is not a language that is going to go away.
Bill
Tom Pridham
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 06, 2001
Posts: 92
Not true, here's some proof:
Go to http://www.netcraft.com and click on the Web Server Survey link in the upper-left corner of the screen.
Look at Weblogic, iPlanet, Apache and where they are on the list. Weblogic is gaining market share each month. Guess what Weblogic is? It's a J2EE application server. Guess what iPlanet is? It's a J2EE application server.
Java is not dead.
Cindy Glass
"The Hood"
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 29, 2000
Posts: 8521
I do have to say that alot of companies are getting pickier about what comes packaged WITH their java programmer. They are looking for folks with java AND c++, or java AND mainframe, or java AND Oracle, or (and I hate to say this) java AND Microsoft Office expertise etc. Java is so prevailant that it is used in combination with a zillion other things and those things need to be managed and maintained also.
So if you JUST know java you are going to be hard put to compete with those that have a broader IT background.


"JavaRanch, where the deer and the Certified play" - David O'Meara
bill bozeman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 30, 2000
Posts: 1070
Cindy, on that one I agree with you. I am a web developer so I need to know HTML, DHTML, Javascript, XML, SQL and database design as well as Java. Couldn't do as much with Servlets if I didn't have the rest.
Bill
Tom Pridham
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 06, 2001
Posts: 92
Bill / Cindy,
I agree. I have been a java programmer for 4 years. The reason I am successful at it is because I also know:
--Oracle
--MS SQL Server
--Interbase
--Access
--HTML
--Active Server Pages (yuck!!)
--VBscript (double yuck!!!)
--Javascript
--Tomcat / Apache
--Bluestone
--Orion
--Database Design
--System Design
--Software Quality Assurance
--Configuration Management / Production Support
Just Java knowledge is not enough, especially when the US slides into a recession. If you have only one skill, you may the first out the door.
Johannes de Jong
tumbleweed
Bartender

Joined: Jan 27, 2001
Posts: 5089
Originally posted by Cindy Glass:
or java AND mainframe

Thanks you, and the book I won, made my day
Kevin Yip
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 17, 2000
Posts: 110
.NET will die before it become popular.
Don't you believe me? Probably not, right? Who am I have the authority to say this? I like joking...
Sahir Shah
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 05, 2000
Posts: 158

Even if Java dies (a lot of it depends on how Sun will extend and improve the product in the coming months) your java certification will still carry weight as proof of expertise in an object oriented language. It is a good idea to have something to go along with your java certification. XML certification is a definite advantage.
Check out this link
http://www-4.ibm.com/software/ad/certify/adcdxmv1.html

<FORM>
<INPUT type="button" value="Cheers. Sahir" onClick="window.open('http://www.geocities.com/sahirshah/index.html','Hi','width=750,height=400, status=yes, menubar = yes resizable=yes, scrollbars=yes, location=yes, toolbar=yes ' )">
</FORM>
[This message has been edited by Sahir Shah (edited March 03, 2001).]


....
Dave Kay
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 20, 2001
Posts: 10
Hey Tualha Khan,

Java is dead ??? C'mon ! Just go on Dice.com and type "Java" in the job search engine. Just for your information, there are more than 24000 jobs offers in Java. Talking about dead technology !
Just because there's a lack of jobs in Java in your part of the world, you don't have to be that alarmist !!!
------------------
Regards,
Dave
foudental@netscape.net
"All your base are belong to us"


Dave K<P>"All your base are belong to us"
Tom Hennigan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 25, 2001
Posts: 71
Diversify across recruiters. Visit ComputerJobs.com (one of my favorites). Do you know of other good job-hunt sites?


Tom Hennigan<P>Sun Certified Java 2 Platform Programmer
Tom Pridham
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 06, 2001
Posts: 92
For a ton of Java job listings:
http://www.kforce.com http://www.computerjobs.com http://www.monster.com http://www.hotjobs.com http://www.dice.com http://www.brainbuzz.com http://www.flipdog.com http://www.justjavajobs.com http://www.javajobs.com http://www.headhunter.net
Good Luck!!
Val Dra
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 26, 2001
Posts: 439
Dave , if Dice gives lots of results it doesnt mean that , it's that many jobs are avialable. It means that the recruites just want to fill their databases with your resume so they can use it for later use. The actuall job market is slow now.


Val SCJP <BR>going for SCJD
Marcus Green
arch rival
Rancher

Joined: Sep 14, 1999
Posts: 2813
Let's think this one through, the suggestion is that the recruiters want to collect resumes containing skills that are not in demand. Wouldn't it make more sense to collect resumes for skills that are in demand?


SCWCD: Online Course, 50,000+ words and 200+ questions
http://www.examulator.com/moodle/course/view.php?id=5&topic=all
Chiran Mathur
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 07, 2001
Posts: 63
No actually Val is right, market is def slow right now. Even in the advertised jobs many positions are on hold because of budget freeze etc.
erich brant
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 27, 2000
Posts: 246
Server sided java for e-commerce is the most popular solution
for fortune 1000 corps!According to forester research and idg!
Overall the most popular languages
for server side scripting is php and perl with about 1 million
+ websites each that use those languages.
After I feel comfortable with java and jsp and servlets I am going to learn perl or php.

http://
Ravi Ada
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 27, 2001
Posts: 5
Certainly not according to the outcome of Gartner Group's research.
http://industry.java.sun.com/javanews/stories/story2/0,1072,35400,00.html
Jaya Reddy
Greenhorn

Joined: Jan 24, 2001
Posts: 4
Hi there,
I stay in Silicon Valley,CA.I see that market is little slow but it shall never die.Some people in India make wild assumtions and create panic which is not good.Dont worry,Java shall never die.
For that to happen there should be a sweeping technology to comein and there is nothing in near future.
bye
Jaya
Tony Alicea
Desperado
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 3222
    
    5
This thread does not belong in this forum. I am moving it to the jobs discussion forum.


Tony Alicea
Senior Java Web Application Developer, SCPJ2, SCWCD
Madhav Lakkapragada
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 03, 2000
Posts: 5040
http://www.newsalert.com/bin/story?StoryId=CoQxaubKbytiXntK
chk this out....
regds.
- satya

Take a Minute, Donate an Hour, Change a Life
http://www.ashanet.org/workanhour/2006/?r=Javaranch_ML&a=81
Pete Pan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 14, 2001
Posts: 44
You are right on the nose with this one.
There are all these "programmers" that go out there and get "certified" in java and all that means that they memorized some books. You need to prove to me that you can actaully program. When I interview someone who is "certified" all that means to me is that they should get more of the "off the wall" questions correct. If they are not certified I let it slide slide and figure that they spent their time actually programming instead of memorizing useless facts.
Originally posted by Cindy Glass:
I do have to say that alot of companies are getting pickier about what comes packaged WITH their java programmer. They are looking for folks with java AND c++, or java AND mainframe, or java AND Oracle, or (and I hate to say this) java AND Microsoft Office expertise etc. Java is so prevailant that it is used in combination with a zillion other things and those things need to be managed and maintained also.
So if you JUST know java you are going to be hard put to compete with those that have a broader IT background.

David Touchshriek
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 3
Pan,
I have a read a couple of posts by you in the forums and always in the same angry, frustrated tone. Why do you think that the certifications add up to memorizing a bunch of useless facts? Certainly this is not the case of the developer exam. You can be a good programmer and still learn a lot while doing the certifications especially when it comes to design patterns or refactoring your code.
You can't just sit down and program with no knowledge of OO. If you are going to do that then don't use Java. To acquire some decent OO skills requires not only endless hours of programming but also endless hours of studying the literature and looking at well design-code trying to assimilate the key concepts that will make you a better designer.
I definitely hope that people interviewing for jobs have a little broader understanding of what it takes to be a good OO programmer than what you seem to possess.
[This message has been edited by David Touchshriek (edited March 16, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by David Touchshriek (edited March 16, 2001).]
mohit joshi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 23, 2000
Posts: 243
I will only add one little point here, a programmer who is not upgrading his skills could be making the same mistake for many years with out being aware of it( how sad), where as , if someone with not so much programming experience can still correct his mistakes by reading a book. So reading is something which cannot be looked down upon. After all, the people who write these books dont just wake up one day and do it, they have been programming for years, and by reading the book, you learn from their experience.
Michal Harezlak
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 06, 2000
Posts: 185
Originally posted by mohit joshi:
[...] After all, the people who write these books dont just wake up one day and do it, they have been programming for years, [...]

Unfortunately not always the case. It is good to have some criticisms even if you are reading a book by the industry guru.
Pete Pan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 14, 2001
Posts: 44
It just seems that way be here is a very "certification is the key" type of site. Since I am a minority here, it just looks that way to you.
first, there is hardly a spec of OO in the SCJP exam.
second, I do not TAKE interviews, I GIVE interviews. I interview people like you and if you think becoming becoming a "sun developer" makes you an expert on OO design, then live in your little world, but I see 3 or 4 of you a week that do not know their butts from a whole in the wall. You read a few books one one narrow topic and that is all that you know. Companies (at least ones that last) look for people who can learn new topics, not just memorized a single one. After I ask SCJP technical interview questions that they get right, I usually follow up with the question "why is that the answer". Almost all of them answer "that is the way the language says it should be" or something similar. I usually cut the interview short after that.
Originally posted by David Touchshriek:
Pan,
I have a read a couple of posts by you in the forums and always in the same angry, frustrated tone. Why do you think that the certifications add up to memorizing a bunch of useless facts? Certainly this is not the case of the developer exam. You can be a good programmer and still learn a lot while doing the certifications especially when it comes to design patterns or refactoring your code.
You can't just sit down and program with no knowledge of OO. If you are going to do that then don't use Java. To acquire some decent OO skills requires not only endless hours of programming but also endless hours of studying the literature and looking at well design-code trying to assimilate the key concepts that will make you a better designer.
I definitely hope that people interviewing for jobs have a little broader understanding of what it takes to be a good OO programmer than what you seem to possess.
[This message has been edited by David Touchshriek (edited March 16, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by David Touchshriek (edited March 16, 2001).]

Nathan Pruett
Bartender

Joined: Oct 18, 2000
Posts: 4121

Pan,
In answer to your statement that "there is hardly a spec of OO in the SCJP exam" I would only have to half-heartedly agree. The SCJP does not test you on OO concepts because they assume you already know them. They do, however, test you on OO concepts like inheritance( overloading vs. overriding ), and some encapsulation( "is a" vs. "has a" ). However, I think you are confusing the terms Sun Certified Java Programmer and the Sun Certified Java Developer... these are two different certifications, deal with different topics, and are tested in different ways. The SCJP deals more with language fundamentals of Java, and is only a multiple-choice & short answer test. The SCJD deals with design related information and more peripheral Java APIs ( like RMI, JavaBeans, Servelets, etc. ), and the person taking it is given a specification and then actually develops the system. They are then given a test asking them why they chose a certain solution or used a certain technology. Obviously, if someone took the SCJD test and did not use OO, they would fail horribly...
If you are interviewing someone for a Java position and you ask them a question related to Java like, "Why is an int 32 bits?" and they answer "That is the way the language says it should be." then they are correct. If, however, you are interviewing for a general programming position, one which may use several languages, and ask the same question, the answer should be "It depends on the architecture you are using in addition to the language you are using."
I agree that there are alot of people with SCJP certifications that think they know everything about programming, but they don't... no certification is better than actual programming experience... However, it seems that you are being a bit brusque ( and a little unfair ) when you say that you will basically write someone off if they give the aforementioned answer... You also did not give an example of the type of question you would be asking... for some technical questions "because the language says so" type answers would be satisfactory... for others it would not be...
If you are having a problem with alot of "unqualified" people being interviewed, it is most likely a problem with the company not specifying what they want... if the job description says that they need Java programmers, you are mainly going to get people who just know Java... if you specify that you need someone who needs to know Java and be well experienced with OO design ( possibly specify UML or Rational Rose experience ) you will be able to weed out the "unqualified" people before the interview process ( hopefully ).
I have had tons of interviews where this has happened... you send a resume for an "Java Developer" position that lists Java and the other requisite business catchphrases ( "Work well in teams", "Excellent communication skills", etc. ) under Skills Required... you go for the interview and the interviewer treats you like an idiot because you don't know technology x ( for example: Enterprise JavaBeans ). Nowhere on their job description did they specify that you needed to know EJBs... nowhere on your resume did you claim to have experience with EJBs... You counter by saying, " No, I don't have any experience with Enterprise JavaBeans, but I have created JavaBean components for this project I was working on in... ". Before you can finish the sentence the interviewer interrupts, " I didn't ask you about JavaBeans!!! I asked you about Enterprise JavaBeans!!!" Basically, everyone's time has been wasted and the person being interviewed has been treated like an idiot through no fault of their own, but because the company is too stupid or egocentric to actually specify what they really want. "Everyone knows that "Java Developer" really means that I want someone who knows Java, has an expert knowledge of OO concepts, and has over 2 years of Enterprise JavaBeans experience in WebSphere because that is what "Java Developer" means to this company. " Who's the real idiot here?
Just my $0.02...
-Nate


-Nate
Write once, run anywhere, because there's nowhere to hide! - /. A.C.
Tony Alicea
Desperado
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 3222
    
    5
Of course!
Part of the blame falls on incompetent recruiters (like the one over a year ago looking for 5yrs exp. in Java) that send a candidate to an interview even if only one word in the resume matches a word in the job requirements! Ha!
Tualha Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2000
Posts: 287
Dear All,
Hey,
I have had a look at this post very closely and I want to thank eache and every member for shedding light on this topic. To add some humor (however, not to discourage or in some other negative way) to this particular post, I would like you people to have a look at the following image. My brother in USA, had sent me this. I again repeat, I am in no way discouraging the prospective java programmers/SCJP aspirants to take it seriously. IT IS JUST MEANT TO BE A JOKE.
http://www.webappcabaret.com/tualha/java_coming_back.jpg
Bye,
Tualha Khan
 
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