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Importance of Certification in Europe

Fred Close
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2001
Posts: 42

in the US the certifications seem to be quite important ...
what about the importance of the certifications in Europe ?

FREd
Tony Alicea
Desperado
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 3222
    
    5
Certifications are good only in certain contexts.
If you have professional experience in something, you don't need certification. If you don't have professional experience, then it is better to have it.


Tony Alicea
Senior Java Web Application Developer, SCPJ2, SCWCD
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
Certification alone does not get you hired (at this time, two years ago it would), but it does draw attention to your resume (unless it is MCSE, in which case it may draw attention away from the resume and onto the wastebasket).
This gives you a better chance at a job-interview (and maybe a higher paygrade if you are hired).


42
Pete Pan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 14, 2001
Posts: 44
The way you feel about MCSE is the way others feel about Java Certs. I tend NOT to hire people with certs. The reason that they get them are to prove that they know the language. If they have the experience, then they do not need the cert to prove it (and for the liars, you can lie about the cert too, nobody checks. besides that is what tech interviews are for).
get some experience instead of a cert. Do a FREE project for a local non profit group. To most reasonable people, real world experience is a heck of a lot better than a cert.
Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:
Certification alone does not get you hired (at this time, two years ago it would), but it does draw attention to your resume (unless it is MCSE, in which case it may draw attention away from the resume and onto the wastebasket).
This gives you a better chance at a job-interview (and maybe a higher paygrade if you are hired).

Tony Alicea
Desperado
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 3222
    
    5
"get some experience instead of a cert."
Nope! Do Both! And get 100% in the Certification too...
Pete Pan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 14, 2001
Posts: 44
Nope. With the huge number of "certifications" out there now (are you AOL 5.0 certified? If not they no one will hire you to do a job where you have to use AOL 5.0 http://www.brainbench.com/xml/bb/common/testcenter/taketest.xml?testId=11), the meaning of a Java cert is about as useful as a MCSE from microsoft.
Get the college degree, then the experience and forget about you AOL 5.0 vertification.
Originally posted by Tony Alicea:
"get some experience instead of a cert."
Nope! [b]Do Both!
And get 100% in the Certification too...[/B]

bill bozeman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 30, 2000
Posts: 1070
I really don't see how certification hurts or isn't any good. I know that experience is more important, but there are things that you will learn by studying for and taking the certification that you would more than likely not learn from experience, or you at least might not learn it right away. For example, I don't do a lot of GUI stuff in Java, but the certification made me learn it. And are the Microsoft stuff that bad, or is it just that everyone hate Microsoft, so therefore they are worthless to have?
Also I find that certification shows signs of dedication and self-improvement. If I was to get certified in various Microsoft products and Java, I would think it would show that I care about what I am doing and I want to show that I know what I am doing. I think both are important to have well rounded knowledge and experience.
Just my two cents.
Bill
Tony Alicea
Desperado
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 3222
    
    5
Who knows which Java programmers that talk down certification possibly flunked the test or know they would not pass.
Pete Pan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 14, 2001
Posts: 44
I guess you are an MCSE too
Originally posted by Tony Alicea:
Who knows which Java programmers that talk down certification possibly flunked the test or know they would not pass.

Pete Pan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 14, 2001
Posts: 44
In theory they are not bad. But it comes down to this:
If you NEED certification to get the job that PROBABLY means that you do not have the experience. So great, you went out and memorized a whole bunch of facts from different Java certification books and sites. But can you use these "facts"? Does it matter if someone knows that they cannot use "default" as a variable name? First of all you should probably use something more descriptive. Second you type it in, you compile and you get an error and then fix it. It takes 2 seconds. It comes down to being able to "spell" in a language vs, being able to "write" in a language. Any graduate of a respectable college CS program should be able to learn the syntax of a new language in a couple of weeks (i.e. "spell"). The ability to program (i.e. "write") only comes with experience.
As for the Microsoft certs, they have become the joke of the industry. All of the people went out and got certified trying to get a $100K job that they were promised by the certification companies. In the beginning they were hired, but then managers took a long look at these people and they found out that they were taught that one thing and when new things came out they couldn't learn them because they were never taught how to learn...
Originally posted by bill bozeman:
I really don't see how certification hurts or isn't any good. I know that experience is more important, but there are things that you will learn by studying for and taking the certification that you would more than likely not learn from experience, or you at least might not learn it right away. For example, I don't do a lot of GUI stuff in Java, but the certification made me learn it. And are the Microsoft stuff that bad, or is it just that everyone hate Microsoft, so therefore they are worthless to have?
Also I find that certification shows signs of dedication and self-improvement. If I was to get certified in various Microsoft products and Java, I would think it would show that I care about what I am doing and I want to show that I know what I am doing. I think both are important to have well rounded knowledge and experience.
Just my two cents.
Bill

bill bozeman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 30, 2000
Posts: 1070
Peter,
I do agree with you that experience is the most important thing. And that knowing how to write a language is more important than knowing how to "spell" a language.
But the way I see it, with studing and "memorization" comes learning. And with learning comes experience. So getting certified is a way of starting to get experience. I can't speak for everyone, but when I was studing to get certified, I did hundreds of code samples and I learned tons. And because of that, my experience has grown. I have a lot more to learn and experience, but certification was WELL worth my time.
But everyone has there opinions. These are just mine.
Bill
Pete Pan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 14, 2001
Posts: 44
Then you did it the right way. I look at the postings here and there are a ton of people that are asking things like "is XXX going to be on the exam". Basically they just want to learn the 50 or so "tricks" to get the certified. I tell the young kids that want me to hire them to go out and donate some time to a non-profit organization and write some code or do a website for them. You would learn more in a 3 month project than you would learn in memorizing a book just for an exam. I also put it like this:
It is like memorizing how to through a split fingered fast ball when you are still in little league hitting off the tee.
Originally posted by bill bozeman:
Peter,
I do agree with you that experience is the most important thing. And that knowing how to write a language is more important than knowing how to "spell" a language.
But the way I see it, with studing and "memorization" comes learning. And with learning comes experience. So getting certified is a way of starting to get experience. I can't speak for everyone, but when I was studing to get certified, I did hundreds of code samples and I learned tons. And because of that, my experience has grown. I have a lot more to learn and experience, but certification was WELL worth my time.
But everyone has there opinions. These are just mine.
Bill

Eric Barnhill
Rancher

Joined: Feb 25, 2000
Posts: 233

It used to be conventional wisdon that the cert showed that at the very least your fundamentals were dead-on solid. Stories were shared about people who studied for the cert exam who could show up their bosses on the little details of the language. If that's all you know it's no good...but it's a good thing to know.
Eric
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
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