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good news all you guys ... job market on the rise !!!!!!

Raghav Mathur
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 12, 2001
Posts: 641
check out and tell me what do you feel about it
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1007-200-6156221.html?tag=ch_mh


Raghav.
Tony Alicea
Desperado
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 3222
    
    5
IT recruiting has been very good in the US for I don't know how long. It's just that from a few years ago to last year it went into a crazy, irealistic mode that the only requirement to work as a (Java) programmer was that you were breathing regularly.
Now it's better; they actually expect you to know Java programming.
You see, being able to breath is no longer the only requirement anymore.
So, it's better now.


Tony Alicea
Senior Java Web Application Developer, SCPJ2, SCWCD
John Coxey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 24, 2000
Posts: 503
I would have to agree with Tony with regards to the Java job market.
The days of getting an 18 month tech school course (ie: HTML) under your belt and landing the magial US$50K/YR job are gone.
The fact is, most companies I have spoken with want to see a college degree and possibly a certification or two to go along with it. Of course, experience still goes along way.
The people who are really getting hurt in the IT market seem to be the H1B's and these "tech school" people. Sure, there are exceptions - but companies are now looking for "quality" rather than just "quantity".
I have been at two interviews where the interviewers went on major 10 minute tirades (seriously) against the H1B program. Neither of these two managers will even speak to H1B people. I guess they have had serious quality problems with their H1B employees. Both on the technical and communications side.
Meaning they are getting people who have no verifiable experience and who have completely over-exaggerate their skills.
Remember, most companies don't do technical interviews from what I have seen.
----
With the above in mind, I expect to announce the results of my latest job search in a few days on this board - so stay tuned.
I can tell you that salaries have gone UP another 5% to 7% for this year. And I can tell you that I am sitting with multiple job offers - most of them over the US$65K/yr mark.
So stay tuned. Will post the results later in the week.
John Coxey
(jpcoxey@aol.com)
[This message has been edited by John Coxey (edited June 05, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by John Coxey (edited June 05, 2001).]


John Coxey
Evansville, Indiana, USA
Paul Keohan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 15, 2000
Posts: 411
I'm sure there are plenty of poor quality H1 workers out there. But there are plenty of poor quality citizens too.
John Coxey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 24, 2000
Posts: 503
Paul:
Regarding poor quality people:
The gripes I heard regarding the H1B program is that there was no way to verify the candidates story. In addition, the candidates had very limited Enlish capabilities.
With the H1B program - how does one even verify the quality of people being hired. Most IT managers would not even know how to dial a phone number to get to India - let alone know the language of that country. So how do you verify education and experience?
Most of the interviews I have been on have been strictly managerial in nature. The few technical interviews I have been on have been very basic in nature. Surprisingly, most of the companies I speak with are in the Fortune 500 category. You would think there would be more intense screening process.
Even the new Hewlett-Packard job that I start on Monday did not have a major technical interview. Basically, they had a standard managerial type phone interview. One question regarding abstract versus interface. And I had to teach a 20 minute "Intro to Java" class in front of 6 or 7 people.
----
Regarding poor US-Citizens. I heard the same gripes comming from AT&T managers. They tried the 18 month MCSE route - and the people would list every single skill possible on their resume. Even if they had only just learned to spell the name of that skill.
When the going got tough - and you can bet your sweet hiney things get tough at times on AT&T projects - these people upped and left. I guess these HTML schools (as I call them) promise the candidated 40 hour work weeks at US$50-US$60K per year.
I remember a post a few months back where one of these HTML students turned down a US$45K offer. Thought he should get US$60K/yr. Guy posted his thoughts on the board asking why he was "getting ripped off" with such a low salary. (Note: This was in a mid-western market like Chicago or some such).
-----
The above scenarios are why I feel a college degree is so important these days.
Hope this answers your question/thoughts.
John Coxey
(jpcoxey@aol.com)
sravana reddibathini
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 06, 2001
Posts: 26
Hi John Coxey,
for your kind notice,
INS will not approve a H1 visa unless the candidate has a 4 year college degree( need not be in computer science/IT).
Thanks
Sravana.
sravana reddibathini
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 06, 2001
Posts: 26
I think INS should screen the skills of H1 visa seekers ,
Like most US universities do by GRE/TOEFL scores for foreign students.
Sravana.
Robert McVeigh
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 13, 2001
Posts: 1
Haha.. Tony..and others....just because of few h1b peeps..dont make general comment against all H1B people..i have been in this country for 3 years..i have worked on some fortune 100 clients..i have seen worked with so called "geek", so called "smart" americanzzz... some are dumb shit!.. no skills...they just talk... thats it...they cant code even a simple re usable component..in C++ or Java...
Waste of time to talk with these kinda so called -"smart" AMERICANZZZ People..
McVeigh
Jim Baiter
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 05, 2001
Posts: 532
I don't think the issue of bias against H1B has anything to do with skill or performance. It's a prejudice against the foreigner because there are citizens who are out of work. Many will see the H1B as "taking jobs away from Americans". As a disclaimer I don't take any side in these matters and state this solely as an observation.
Raghav Mathur
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 12, 2001
Posts: 641

A note to all of you out here :
This is not the question of h1b or americans .... it is the question of producing results .
I believe in the overhiring of h1bs but what about those who write a 400 line code for a single function.
The point is that as long you can provide results ( positve) for your company , good .
It doesn't matter wherther one is an american or and indian .... as long he/she produces good results for the company.
Even a person with a 1 year diploma can give excellent results wheras a person attainig a degree might not.
"you gotta master of one " thats what i feel .
So i don't think that the h1b's should be held in contempt ..... nor the americans .
There is no point in this curtural discriminition.
IF YOU STILL DISAGREE THEN WE HAVE TO DISCUSS THIS TOPIC FURTHER !
rax_india@yahoo.com
raghavmathur@indiatimes.com


[This message has been edited by raghav mathur (edited June 14, 2001).]
neetu singh
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 20
Hi Sravana and John
why should people have to take any test like GRE and others for H1-B visa if he/she has a 4 year technical degree.In other country he/she has a good qualification.I think all coutries should have same course pattern it's not good in US his/her qualifiaction is uder remark.
and plaese stop to make a comment on H1-B visa candidates
It's not good.
sravana reddibathini
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 06, 2001
Posts: 26
Originally posted by neetu singh:
Hi Sravana and John
why should people have to take any test like GRE and others for H1-B visa if he/she has a 4 year technical degree.In other country he/she has a good qualification.I think all coutries should have same course pattern it's not good in US his/her qualifiaction is uder remark.
and plaese stop to make a comment on H1-B visa candidates
It's not good.


bcos , some one studies civil/chemical/mecahnical etc etc engineering in india(or their respective countries) and then they go to NIIT , APTECH etc etc to get some computer key board operating knowldge( these are the so called 18 month HTML schools), after that they land up in US with a H1 and 50k/year.
i am not against all H1Bs , i have met really intelligent and smart H1Bs.
i am in favour of screening of h1b aspirants just to give the world better quality programmers/project leads/managers.
any way NEETHU , i am not against h1bs.
Thanks
sravana.
Alex Ayzin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 10, 2001
Posts: 107
Raghav Mathur,
Before making any statements, look deeply into the problem. H1B people come here with fake experience and no proper education. I work un NYC, so I see a bulk of your people perform nothing at work but manipulating microwaves with some curry food for themselves.
Now, about level of your preparation. About a year ago, one of the most respectable consulting firms in India provided our group with a list of qualified programmers from India. All of them claimed that they have at least master degree in CS. We were suggested to phone them up for technical evaluation. One of my peers were totally opposed to an idea of bringing somebody from overseas, he didn't belive in their qualifications, nor credentials(he's had some unpleasant experiences beforehand). Anyway, someone suggested to use recording device while interviewing those people. Maybe it's illegal, I don't know.
The point is, that after interviewing 14 people over the phone, we gave the recordings to Private Investigator(who was brother of one of us). The results - all of the voices on those recording belonged to the same person. That person was the only one from the whole bunch who was able to answer some basic questions about Java, was unable to answer any database related questions, but was fast to answer all of the questions related to JDBC. How's that possible? Guy never used any DBs(we could feel it), yet he was able to answer how he ussualy connects to a database of his choice. Fake. Now, you want to come here and run our financial and insurance apps, claiming that we're the ones who don't know how to program? One of your guys was trying to install .dll file in Unix environment(imagine that!) - he also claimed to have Master Degree in CS. Sorry, if I got a little personal, but you guys not only taking over our jobs, but became agressive enough to make fun of us and our skills. In order to get Sun certification + some basic Java knowledge you need 2-3 months, but we studied for 4 years in American univercities and still paying off our student loans.
--Alex
Raghav Mathur
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 12, 2001
Posts: 641
sorry alex , but you misundrestood me .... i,am not in favour of the indian comunity nor i,am helding anybody in contempt.... i just say what i feel .... i've explained that what is required is producing good results .... i never said about the indians producing good results and the americans producing bad results ..... the point is who can produce can only win ,..... so where is the question of cultural discrimination.
I understand what you feel when you see these people performing nothing at all but if they perform , don't you feel proud of them .... i,am my self not in favour of this . Believe me , even i don't believe in 18 month course and earn .... but if you can code well then whats the harm.... and as far as the job matter is concerned .... my friend let me tell you , now after the slowdown these people will bw kicked off and quality workers will be placed.
And who says passing scjp is easy.
try to undrestand
if you are still not convinced then please tell me , cuz i don't want this misunderstanding to prevail in your mind.


[This message has been edited by raghav mathur (edited June 14, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by raghav mathur (edited June 14, 2001).]
Ashwin Desai
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 17, 2000
Posts: 124
I have been following this thread for some time now. What started off as a Good News has digressed into an anti-h1b tirade with people bringing off their personal grudges and problems on this board.
I understand that there are many people with a H-1b working in the US who do not even deserve being called programmers. But, on the other side of it, there are a lot more who are highly qualified with Masters and PHds, educated in US schools.
There have been people who have written at lengths about the skill level of people with H-1Bs. But, if you wake up from your stupor and see around you will find a similar situation even among American workers. In fact, there are bound to be some good, some bad and some pathetic workers in any particular category.
Just because a few are bad, you cannot generalize that all are bad.
I (and I am sure many out there too) do not want this board to be turned into another one of anti-H1B tirades. If you want to continue please carry off your fights, issues to thousands of such boards on the web and I am sure you would find a lot of similar minded people.
Please let this board serve its intended purpose.
Ashwin.
[This message has been edited by Ashwin Desai (edited June 14, 2001).]
Andrew Shafer
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 19, 2001
Posts: 338

Sure am glad they made me learn grammar and spelling at these American univercities. . .
Now where did I put that curry?
Actually, I could really go for some Saag Paneer. . .


!_I_Know_Kung_Fu_!
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
May as well throw im my two cents. I have absolutely no problem with the H1Bs. The problem I have is with the program. Corporate has lied and exagerated to congress in order to gain an increase of the amount of cheap labor that may be imported into this country.
Skills have little to do with it. The reason it is advantageous to hire an H1B over an American is that they are cheaper. We can leave who is more skilled out of the equation because I don't think that necessarily matters to many managers.
I totaly agree with the now oft reported claim that the programmer shortage is a myth. So what we are left with is a situation where corporations are trying to lower personnel costs. These are American jobs, and if there are Americans who are available to fill them, the job is theirs. It is wrong for American corporations, who enjoy all the benefit of our society, to not be hiring American citizens if they can, plain and simple. If the reasons behind the number of H1Bs brought into this country were valid, that would be one thing, but they are not. Our government and corporate America has done this country a grave disservice with the H1B ptogram. Being an optomist, I have to hope that they will come to their sense and scale back the program.
Again, let me emphasize, this is no reflection on the workers themselves. They are just doing what is best for them and their families. It is our government and our corporate greed that is soully to blame for this situation, not the H1B holders. If the people who are coming here to work were coming here to be permanent residents/citizens, I would also have less problem with that. Immigration has made our country what it is today. But sadly they are being brought here for only a short amount of time, which is the whole point and why they are cheaper labor. There is no such thing as long term benefits for the H1B holder. An American can not compete with the dollar value of an H1B, which is why the program must be re-evaluated.
Raghav Mathur
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 12, 2001
Posts: 641

i think this discussion is becoming a bit agreesive .... se guys we have to understand the prob ..... you guys(some of you) out there are full of contempt for the h1bs and specifically indians ..... i can understand the prob ..... but why do have to take every thing by heart ..... i know there are h1bs who can go to the extent of loading .dll's to a unix system but that doen't prove the h1b's to be "dumb" ..... There are good quality workers out there who actually work ..... i know some of them are just diploma holders who snatch away your jobs ..... but do you think that those diploma holders should be hold responsible ....... i think the govt and the system should be responsible ..... if i get a job 40 grand per annum , i don't have a reason to reject the offer ..... got the point ..... so please it is a request to all of you that please forget about your aggitations and think properly about it .
And don't you think that after the crises , the companies have turned a bit choosie about extending there tech staff .... so here's the solution ..... !
It is my request to all the h1b's , stop complaining about the americans .....and the same applies to you (americans.).
rax_india@yahoo.com
raghavmathur@indiatimes.com
John Coxey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 24, 2000
Posts: 503
Raghav Mathur:
You are getting confused about the GRE exam.
It is required of nearly ALL applicants for the MS-Computer Science program. It has NOTHING to do with whether you are a foreign student or not. It has NOTHING to do with how many years you have been in the workforce.
The GRE is NOT a Computer Science proficiency exam. Instead, it is a general knowledge based exam - multiple choice. There are three parts (comprehension (called verbal even through you are just marking answers on paper), mathematical (basic math, some algebra, some trig, no calculus), and problem solving (puzzle type questions)).
With 2 undergraduate degrees and 3 years IT work experience - I was required to pay for and take the GRE (Graduate Record Examination). I would say (from my experiences) that 90% of the applicants are required to take the GRE.
The colleges do look at your GRE scores for admissions. But it is your undergraduate work they are most interested in.
The only exception(s) to taking the GRE that I know of - are students who are going straight from the BS-Computer Science program into the MS-Computer Science program AT THE SAME SCHOOL.

------
The TOEFL - is a test of English Fluency. It is actually for your benefit - not the colleges. Before you spend major $$ on graduate school - you had better know the language of the country (in this case English). Your score needs to be above a certain level - if it is - then you get a check mark on your application. The actual score DOES NOT figure into your getting into the MS-Computer Science program.
Since I am a US-Citizen and English is my only language - naturally, I did not have to take it.
If you can hold a fluent English conversation with the admissions people at the college - the TOEFL requirement may be waived.
------------
Now here is the clincher. Graduate School admissions in the USA (for Computer Science) is not all that competitive - once you get away from MIT / CMU / and a few other top 10 colleges. BTW/ Most of these top-10 colleges are training people for research and professorships. They are not building people who are looking for jobs.
Most of the people in those programs eat/drink/think/sleep computer science 24 hours a day.
In my case, I was looking for another item to separate myself from the other folks in the work place. And also to make the transition from procedural program over to object-oriented programming. And, it looks like it worked.
----------
John Coxey
(jpcoxey@aol.com)

[This message has been edited by John Coxey (edited June 15, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by John Coxey (edited June 15, 2001).]
Andrew Shafer
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 19, 2001
Posts: 338

The Fabrication of resume is not limited to your foreign competition.
steb
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 07, 2001
Posts: 12
I'd like to add my .02c to this H1B discussion. (and maybe throw some more oil into the fire)
I think that the current sitation of H1Bs replacing and squeezing out US-native IT workforce is partially a fault of this workforce itself. You see, there is no H1B issue with workers of auto industry, as well as, say, steel, or oil industries. The reason for that is these sectors have unionized workers, and the unions have been quite successfull in protecting job market. (Though they couldn't do anything about migrating whole plants abroad, but that's another story). Why the IT workers are not unionized? It's because they are too greedy to think about themselves as a whole. The X-generation folks which constitute the majority of current IT workers have been raised on the principle of immediate gratification, and thus they have been unable or too lazy otherwise to think about the future, and to take measures to protect their job markets. They were too busy earning their six-digits incomes (and busy spending them too!) So now they complain that the jobs are taken away, and there is noone to protect their interests! Note how they blame everyone but themselves! They blame the congress for pro-immigration laws, they blame large and small corporations for bringing workers in, they even blame us Indian and Chinese programmers (who often work 12 and 14 hours a day as compared to an average 40-hours/week corporate coder Joe)! It is just amazing how some people are unable to recognize that they ought to look into a mirror to find the roots of their problems!
You want Java jobs? You want back your job security? Stop wining! Get unionized! Make your voice heard!

[This message has been edited by steb (edited June 15, 2001).]
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by steb:
Why the IT workers are not unionized? It's because they are too greedy to think about themselves as a whole.

Nice theory. However, under labor law, I believe IT workers are considered "professionals" (as in Doctors, Lawyers, etc... i think that's the term, but can't remember exactly), and "professionals" have never traditionally unionized. In fact, there are certain parts of labor law that don't pertain to professionals. For example, it is not required that employers pay us for overtime after working 40 hours. Would I like to be unionized? I don't think it would be a bad idea at all. There are some rudimentary attempts being made to form professional organizations whose focus would be to lobby Congress for labor laws in favor of the IT worker. Not exactly unions, but it's a start.

They blame the congress for pro-immigration laws, they blame large and small corporations for bringing workers in, they even blame us Indian and Chinese programmers (who often work 12 and 14 hours a day as compared to an average 40-hours/week corporate coder Joe)! It is just amazing how some people are unable to recognize that they ought to look into a mirror to find the roots of their problems!

This is where we get to the meat of the problem. The H1B program is in no way shape or form an immigration law. The H1B program is to bring in temporary labor. It serves no other purpose. So I don't know what you are trying to accomplish by accusing people of being anti-immigration. I don't think many people who actually work with the H1Bs have any problems with them personally, unless they are incompetent, but you don't have to look overseas to find incompetent workers. And you may not be aware, but it is the entire IT workforce who puts in thse ludicrous hours, not just Chinese and Indians. What you seem to be trying to do is raise the spector of racism. Just because somebody has problems with a program that is attempting to replace a native workforce with lower priced imported labor doesn't make it a racial issue. Often this is a knee-jerk reaction by people with racial insecurities of their own.
Neither the US worker, nor the foreign worker created the H1B program, Congress and the US corporations did. In my opinion, what our government should do if it wants to attract the best and brightest foreign talent is to relax immigration laws for those workers. This might solve the problem and attract people who would have a stake in bettering our country.

[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited June 18, 2001).]
mahesh jhamtani
Greenhorn

Joined: Jan 12, 2001
Posts: 11
Hi John and Party,
Don't cry H1B and H1B and H1B..
Forget this thing that H1B does not have performance.
Much better then people who need calculator to add two numbers...
If you want to listen let me know...
Can�t write much, busy in couple of projects...
Bye for now.
M Prembroke
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 03, 2000
Posts: 56
Regarding this whole issue, I've heard that computer science enrollment is already dropping like mad. Between the H1-Bs and the decline in employment, the gold-rush mentality is over among students. Computer science enrollment tripled between 1994 and 2000, although the number of graduates has only gone from about 24,000 a year to 40,000. Lots of people are already changing to easier majors and freshmen CS enroll this fall will likely drop dramatically compared to a year ago. While there is still a bumper crop of CS students in the pipeline, that'll only last a year or two.
Observations:
1) H-1B program has only hurt the long-term US based software engineering labor pool. If there weren't hundreds of thousands of foreign programmers in the US right now the market would still be strong. New CS grads are having a very hard time finding work at all. The consequence of this will be a sharp, sharp drop CS enrollment, which will only create more shortages later- or alternatively, the H1-B will become cyclically a permanent part the labor pool.
2) A good thing... the gold-rush types are going to other fields. 10 years ago people studied computer science because they liked the subject and were good at it. The last few years, many people have entered the field and gotten degrees just because of the money. Actually, many have tried but failed to get CS degrees, but others have been successful but still money was their only real motivation.
Kristy McClure
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 19, 2001
Posts: 13
I have to say that I support H1B visas. I know from our own hiring attempts here that it is VERY difficult to find qualified candidates for any position. We brought people in to interview for 60K+ ASP positions, who claimed to have 2 years ASP experience... and who were unable to write any reasonable ASP code, or even to structure ASP appropriately, or even to pseudocode it. Other 'developers' who claimed to have done web-database systems were unable to write the simplest select statement. Hiring for this reason has been very difficult. DBAs are even more difficult to find, with some of the same kinds of issues (supposed DBAs not knowing how to perform backups, etc). We don't have enough local workers to fill these jobs -- my group at least was forced to hire a couple of really unqualified people, then spend a lot on training, just hoping that these people would have the aptitude and stick around long enough to make the training investment worthwhile. We're not even attempting to hire new Java people -- we're retrofitting the developers who are already here (which would be why I am here, ha ha).
Here, I haven't seen much difference in the quality of work put out by foreign employees on H1B visas, and domestic employees. Some are good and some are not so good. We do know, at least, that the H1B folks are ambitious in general and willing to take risks to find a good job, which is more than can be said for most run-of-the-mill American IT employees. The only difficulty is with communication skills... but those difficulties exist with American workers too.
As far as CS degrees and whatnot, I have to say that our best people categorically do NOT have CS degrees. We pay very little attention to whether someone has a graduate degree in CS, and much attention to the experience that can be DEMONSTRATED (as opoposed to 'claimed')in skills tests. A four-year degree in something is better than no degree... but of the best 2 people I can think of offhand we have had in this group, one had less than 1 year in an art college, and another came out of the military and went to some 18-month tech community college.
It's interest and motivation that seems to be the main determinant of success. That, and a brain of any nationality.


pardon me, but you've obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a damn...
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Kristy McClure:
I have to say that I support H1B visas. I know from our own hiring attempts here that it is VERY difficult to find qualified candidates for any position. We brought people in to interview for 60K+ ASP positions, who claimed to have 2 years ASP experience... and who were unable to write any reasonable ASP code, or even to structure ASP appropriately, or even to pseudocode it. Other 'developers' who claimed to have done web-database systems were unable to write the simplest select statement. Hiring for this reason has been very difficult. DBAs are even more difficult to find, with some of the same kinds of issues (supposed DBAs not knowing how to perform backups, etc). We don't have enough local workers to fill these jobs -- my group at least was forced to hire a couple of really unqualified people, then spend a lot on training, just hoping that these people would have the aptitude and stick around long enough to make the training investment worthwhile. We're not even attempting to hire new Java people -- we're retrofitting the developers who are already here (which would be why I am here, ha ha).
Here, I haven't seen much difference in the quality of work put out by foreign employees on H1B visas, and domestic employees. Some are good and some are not so good. We do know, at least, that the H1B folks are ambitious in general and willing to take risks to find a good job, which is more than can be said for most run-of-the-mill American IT employees. The only difficulty is with communication skills... but those difficulties exist with American workers too.
As far as CS degrees and whatnot, I have to say that our best people categorically do NOT have CS degrees. We pay very little attention to whether someone has a graduate degree in CS, and much attention to the experience that can be DEMONSTRATED (as opoposed to 'claimed')in skills tests. A four-year degree in something is better than no degree... but of the best 2 people I can think of offhand we have had in this group, one had less than 1 year in an art college, and another came out of the military and went to some 18-month tech community college.
It's interest and motivation that seems to be the main determinant of success. That, and a brain of any nationality.

Just a couple of comments. I'm not saying this is true in your company's case, but part of the problem is with the overstating of qualifications required to work many jobs. Have you looked at some of the qualifications required in job ads? Most of them are ridiculous with very few people actually posessing the full range of skillsets "required". So the industry, who is asking for unrealistic qualifications, turns around to Congress and says they are unable to find any qualified U.S. workers, so we must raise the H1B quota.
As an example, to work one project which I did in fact end up beng placed on last year, one of the requirements was for three years Java servlet experience. Now let me ask you, how many people out there in 2000 had been working with servlets since 1997. And of those who may have had 3 years servlet experience in 2000, how many would have been in the price range they were looking for?
Here's a typical example:

Required Technical Knowledge: WebSphere Application Server, WebSphere Studio, VisualAge Java, Oracle 8i, PL/SQL, JavaScript, JSP, Servlets, EJB, Windows NT, Windows 2000 Server.

A little bit specific don't you think? Does this mean they won't hire someone who posesses most of the skills but instead had previous experience on Netscape iPlanet app server and Borland Jbuilder? In many cases the answer would be yes. Most companies have some unrealistic pipe dream about finding a body they can drop into a project with zero ramp-up time. So when their unrealistic expectations aren't met, they complain because they can't find anybody "qualified" and often have to resort to hiring somebody who is "unqualified".
Here's another, not as bad, but they are basically looking for someone who has experience programming in every language known to man (slight exageration). First, six years web development experience is a bit of a stretch. That would coincide with the beginning of the commercialization of the web. Next they are looking for someone who has equal experience in both UNIX and MS technologies, not impossible to find, but they probably aren't falling off trees either.
Sr. Developer w/team lead exp; client
server and Web Developer exp. 6 yrs
tech exp; 3 yrs tech lead or project
mgmt; 4-yr degree in computer
science or engineering discipline; full
lifecycle exp. Will be using C, C++,
JAVA, JavaScript, UNIX, Oracle, VB,
IIS, MTS, COM, SQL Server

Oh well, you get the point. The other comment I have is a little more specific to your situation. I haven't been exposed to that many ASP *cough*cough* programmers, but those I have met have usually been self-taught, and also generally lacking in basic knowledge of programming fundamentals, so your experience doesn't surprise me. Also, in my experience, ASP isn't something that CS people usually learn in school (at least in my area), not that that means anything, but maybe has some bearing on your luck with CS folks (although any self-respecting CS person should be able to excel at something like ASP).

[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited June 19, 2001).]
Kristy McClure
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 19, 2001
Posts: 13
I think you can blame most of the idiotic ads on 2 entities:
(1) idiotic recruiters for consulting/contracting/temp/headhunting firms,
(2) idiotic HR staff
As most of us have learned, you can reasonably respond to these if you meet some of the requirements, have some interest in the job, and can be honest on the resume.
In all fairness the 2nd ad asks for 6 years tech experience, and an unspecified amount of client-server and web dev experience (unless I'm reading it wrong, it's crappily punctuated).
Now I don't want to get into a MS vs UNIX/Java/open-source debate, but there is a difference between an ASP developer who knows enough to be useful and productive, and one who claims to know a lot but can't come out with one valid line of code. I would expect more of the former than the latter to respond to an ASP job... ditto with our DBA position.
I find CS folks to be heavy on theory and light on practical knowledge. Good architects, bad coders. That's a generalization, of course.
Remember about a year ago when you could get 70K if you could fog a mirror? When you could put a resume out and get literally too many calls and emails to track? There was definitely more demand than supply. I don't think we'll get back to those days, but I think we'll be able to find good positions for a long time to come.
Just my opinion, call me an optimist...
Shetty Kiran
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 20, 2001
Posts: 9
Yes Raghav, I whole heartedly support you. Its not the number of degrees that count ,its the productivity & output one can give. Granted that the H-1B screening process is kinda lenient but then one has to also look at the heavy workload the INS puts up with and its also upto the firm employing you to verify your credentials.
neetu singh
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 20
Hi Guys
what r u doing .the original topic was
good news all you guys ... job market on the rise !!!
ok!!
and u guys r discussing about what---
H1-B visa and comments on it
Why r u tring to distract the original message.
just b'z I opened that message to read
good news all you guys ... job market on the rise !!!
and what I found a bull shit!!!
anyway have fun
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by neetu singh:
Hi Guys
what r u doing .the original topic was
good news all you guys ... job market on the rise !!!
ok!!
and u guys r discussing about what---
H1-B visa and comments on it
Why r u tring to distract the original message.
just b'z I opened that message to read
good news all you guys ... job market on the rise !!!
and what I found a bull shit!!!
anyway have fun

You know, sometimes discussions just have a life of their own. In the course of any discussion, many sub-topics may be explored which in some way relate to the main topic, or to a response on the main topic. Obviously in the opinion of many, the topic H1Bs relates to the topic of the job market.
Sorry you don't like the way the discussion has turned but you're just going to have to live with it. If you actually have anything constructive to add to the discussion, it is an open forum and you are free to voice your views. Just because you start a topic doesn't grant you ownership of it.
just b'z I opened that message to read

What is b'z supposed to be an abbreviation for? I can infer from the context that it means because, but that is just a guess. I have never seen this abbreviation used in English before, or netspeak for that matter (but it may just be obscure). It's generally not a good idea to make up your own abbreviations, or use obscure ones, and expect people to know what you are talking about.
[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited June 21, 2001).]
Raghav Mathur
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 12, 2001
Posts: 641

i think this is gonna continue .... so forget it neetu
Annie Weaver
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 17, 2001
Posts: 50
Of course there are good and bad programmers, serious CS thinkers and money hungry pretenders, and slightly inflated and totally fake skills on resumes, both among H1B and other foreigners and USA citizens. A lot of the fault lies with the hiring process. You have to get the right keywords onto your resume to get past the screening process, and the screening process doesn't differentiate between javascript, which a java programmer can pick up in a week, and unix, which can take years to master. And the actual job description can change between the advertisement and the start date, and change as time goes on, too. If we want ramp-up time for special skills for a project to be part of IT, we have to accept it ourselves first.
But I want to say that the difference between a good programmer and a bad programmer isn't as clearcut as you might think. One programming job might call for a fast and dirty start-up prototype approach while another might call for a thoroughly documented overtested last-year's proven technology approved by a committee following the standards approach. Sometimes writing as many lines of code as fast as you can is more important and sometimes it's really thinking out and coordinating the design that's necessary. Sometimes a programmer's style doesn't fit the job style, especially if there are communication hurdles. Also, unless there are code reviews, it's hard to judge somebody else's code. If you know some approach they don't, teach them. They might return the favor some day, or they might have some hazard unknown to you they were protecting against.
If they really don't know the technology, get them a book or a url. Not knowing a particular piece of technology doesn't make one a "bad" programmer. Communicate, and find out what the block is, rather than sit in silent judgement.
Which leads me to the next point. If part of the job is documenting code, writing help screens, explaining functionality, debating design, interpreting requirements, etc in English, then a person whose English is not good will not be as good at the job no matter how much code they can spew. Some people in my office cannot make a basic business phone call, and that means they are not as valuable - for example, days have been wasted coding the wrong thing. Of course some H1Bs have excellent English and some USA citizens are impossible to understand. But coding is no longer something you can do alone in your cube all day - it takes interaction and coordination, and as long as that happens in English, some managers will justifiably prefer hiring people whose spoken and written English is effortless.
Paul Clark
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 25, 2001
Posts: 1
A big problem with the H1B program (and there are many) is that the H1B fees that are supposed to be used to train Americans to fill IT jobs is being squandered on ineffective political pork. Just look at the Dept. of Labor web site and see where the millions of training dollars go! Why would you try to train non-technical people for high-tech jobs on the basis that they are a dislocated worker or welfare recipient.
SoonAnn Lim
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 21, 2001
Posts: 155
I saw many excellent opinions on this thread. I just want to pour some thoughts. I am totally happy when i know the recruiting people are more serious on get high quality people. In past two years, while i started pursuing my MSEE in 1999, there were many so-called change major people from XXX to CS. These people hope to take several classes in CS and get a decent job after they graduate. Those graduated in 2000 got good job. However, they had very loose basic concept in problem solving. Given a problem, they still need to refer to some basic syntax. Not even to mention writing an algorithm. This clearly points out that these people cannot utilize their knowledge in certain programming language to solve a problem. They need books to follow. Everybody needs books, me too. But not totally depend on books.
This is very obvious in programming field, but more obvious in Java. I wish these people will learn the lesson. No pay no gain. No short cut. I just don't feel good that they set off bad impression among employers and it is unfair to those really "can do" people. Be practical. Hope we all learn the lesson.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Okay, I'll feed the troll.
This country is nothing without H1-Bs.

Mighty high opinion of yourself. This country is nothing without immigrants, is what I think your reference might be. H1Bs aren't immigrants, they are temporary labor. If they wanted to immigrate here and contribute, that is one thing. Coming to this country to make a quick buck, possibly at the expense of it's citizens, and then leaving, is something else. I don't fault the H1B's though, greed is universal, and I can't fault someone from an impovershed country trying to make a better life for themselves. But the statement that we are nothing without H1Bs is ludicrous.
Because Americans doesn't know anything.

If Americans know nothing else, they know how to write books to teach you Java. For that matter, they know enough to create Java and the other languages it is based on. Gosling, Kernighan, Ritchie, even Bjarne Stroustrup (I'm pretty sure he has his citizenship), all Americans. Incidentally, Ritchie, Kernighan, and Stroustrup all work at Bell Labs, talk about your water cooler talk.
They are just B.... They have this problem because they are not appropriate for this work.

I can't think of a five letter word beginning with 'b' that would actually make sense. How about a hint? We are so inappropriate for this work though that a large majority of the CS students being taught in Universities by Americans are not Americans. Of course you might be one of those folks hoping to just read a book and take a test, thinking that this is all you need for a career, so the University situation her might be unfamiliar to you.
They can just enjoy parties...thats it.

I guess you don't get invited to any parties?
There's no need to get hostile and attack people because you don't like their opinion. If we are such an awful worthless people and country, please, PLEASE, do us a favor and don't come here.
[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited June 26, 2001).]
Desai Sandeep
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 02, 2001
Posts: 1157
Hi all,
I have been following this thread with interest.It seems to be moving in a tangential direction from the topic it was supposedly for!
My opinion is pretty similar to what Jason has mentioned.IMHO, it is incorrect to differentiate people based on where he or she belongs from.
Hats off to the creators of Java Technologies!They had something in them to create such a revolutionary language.The credit goes to Americans and all its contributors (irrespective of where he belongs!) for developing this software language.
In India, I hear people telling me that we (includes me ) have brains and others donot.This statement is simply incorrect and wrong.You can find both types of people in any part of the world.
I would rather like to put this statement as follows - "Give ANYONE the same kind of resources which Americans have access to and see the difference!"
Here ANYONE includes all - Indians, Americans,Chinese,etc.In short, it is the resources that makes the big difference; race is immaterial.The testimony to this is the fact that Indians who have settled in US with the enterpreneurship motive have been doing extremely well.
This are my views only.I donot want to offend anyone with this.
-- Sandeep
[This message has been edited by Desai Sandeep (edited June 26, 2001).]


<b>Sandeep</b> <br /> <br /><b>Sun Certified Programmer for Java 2 Platform</b><br /> <br /><b>Oracle Certified Solution Developer - JDeveloper</b><br /><b>-- Oracle JDeveloper Rel. 3.0 - Develop Database Applications with Java </b><br /><b>-- Object-Oriented Analysis and Design with UML</b><br /> <br /><b>Oracle Certified Enterprise Developer - Oracle Internet Platform</b><br /><b>-- Enterprise Connectivity with J2EE </b><br /><b>-- Enterprise Development on the Oracle Internet Platform </b>
Shah Vishal
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2001
Posts: 32
Hi,
I know how americans have got their degrees. Here at our university in florida, students come to us and say they will pay 150-200$ for their data strutures programs. Forget about data structures they dont know simple c or c++ programs like calculating your gpa.....What do you call this??? Real degree with fake education. No wonder if americans are still paying their loans... When a foreign student goes to american university, they have to pay outstate fees for whole 4 years. That's 2-3 times what americans are paying. Still they pay off their loans from their home country...
So forget that only H1-Bs have spoiled the american economy. People are same everywhere....
Thanks
Vishal Shah


-----<BR>SCJP2<BR>-----
neetu singh
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 20
Hi Guys
sorry ! previously I wrote such a irritating reply.
but why r u guys wasting your valuable time on discussing
such a controvertial matter.
look in every country some people r really brilliant and some r too dumb.and in every country people can get their fake degree on basis of money.curruption is everywhere in world depends on level.
American and asian(or other) ,some of them r damm good amd some r bad.
so please don't waste you time.
you should learn from good guys and should give suggestions to
people who r anable to do things.this 'll be great help for those people .
every person want to give his abilities to this world in order to make this world happy.
so guys it's my request to not to make any comment on others.
just because even you are not perfect.
ravir
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 27, 2001
Posts: 1
The difference between u american and now h1b is timing u moved before and we late
Originally posted by Jason Menard:
May as well throw im my two cents. I have absolutely no problem with the H1Bs. The problem I have is with the program. Corporate has lied and exagerated to congress in order to gain an increase of the amount of cheap labor that may be imported into this country.
Skills have little to do with it. The reason it is advantageous to hire an H1B over an American is that they are cheaper. We can leave who is more skilled out of the equation because I don't think that necessarily matters to many managers.
I totaly agree with the now oft reported claim that the programmer shortage is a myth. So what we are left with is a situation where corporations are trying to lower personnel costs. These are American jobs, and if there are Americans who are available to fill them, the job is theirs. It is wrong for American corporations, who enjoy all the benefit of our society, to not be hiring American citizens if they can, plain and simple. If the reasons behind the number of H1Bs brought into this country were valid, that would be one thing, but they are not. Our government and corporate America has done this country a grave disservice with the H1B ptogram. Being an optomist, I have to hope that they will come to their sense and scale back the program.
Again, let me emphasize, this is no reflection on the workers themselves. They are just doing what is best for them and their families. It is our government and our corporate greed that is soully to blame for this situation, not the H1B holders. If the people who are coming here to work were coming here to be permanent residents/citizens, I would also have less problem with that. Immigration has made our country what it is today. But sadly they are being brought here for only a short amount of time, which is the whole point and why they are cheaper labor. There is no such thing as long term benefits for the H1B holder. An American can not compete with the dollar value of an H1B, which is why the program must be re-evaluated.

Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Shah Vishal:
If your University is giving out Computer Science degrees as soon as you pass Data Structures, that is the problem. If this is not the case and your school makes them take about 2 years worth of classes after Data Structures, then the cheating would have a minimal impact upon degrees. If they can not write a program to calculate grade point averages, they most certainly will not be able to write the code needed to pass Networks, Operating Systems, Theory, or any other upper level class needed to graduate.
This comes down to two scenarios:
1. Your university gives out degrees after passing Data Structures. That would mean that you go to a poor university and it is most likely not certified.
or
2. Your story of cheating Americans getting real degrees with fake educations does not hold up to close inspection, and is an American bashing exaggeration.
Do you realize what it would take to cheat to recieve a Computer Science degree without knowing what you are doing? Four years worth of programs written by someone else. Four years worth of cheating on tests which include code and theory. (Do you honestly think that would not be noticed?) Passing the exit exam with the Department Chair (note, you would not know much about Computer Science if you cheated the whole way through.) Passing code reviews in upper level classes (how would you pass a code review when you did not write it, or know what it does?)
Your story would be akin to saying that someone cheated in English 102 by having a paper written and received an English degree.
Originally posted by Shah Vishal:
Hi,
I know how americans have got their degrees. Here at our university in florida, students come to us and say they will pay 150-200$ for their data strutures programs. Forget about data structures they dont know simple c or c++ programs like calculating your gpa.....What do you call this??? Real degree with fake education.
Vishal Shah

 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: good news all you guys ... job market on the rise !!!!!!