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Bartholemu Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 08, 2001
Posts: 317
I have been reading many postings on here and it seems there are mixed feeling about the job market and the state of the IT market. There is no doubt IT is not going away. Every industry has its ups and downs and this isnt the end of it, just the begining. As for jobs the key is to be patient, and put your best foot forward. I hate to say this but its more about who you know more than what you know. I am from Calgary, Canada and in this city the IT community is really tight. It seems people who know someone on the inside have really the best chance and those who dont have no luck. Please dont expect to put your resume on Monster.com and expect people to call you left and right. Unless of course you have like 5+ years of experience or are the next Bill Gates. The reality is to network and get to know people, and show them your personality. The way I see it is that you can train almost anyone to code, but you cant always change a persons personality. NETWORK and cold call its the only way. Ask for Career Advice not for a job and it will get you past the gatekeepers.
sorry thats my little Rant..lol
Hey this advice worked for me. It took me while to get to where I want to be, but now I finally got a Java Gig with a IBM consulting firm doing JSP's, Java, Websphere, DB2 etc. I am only 21 and I never thought I would make this much cash at this age. Feels great. Remember you might be chasing your dreams but your dreams are also chasing you...Not to worry things work out. After a Comp Sci degree I did a post grad and Java certification. But in the end It worked out even after a while thinking it wouldn't
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Faisal Dosani
B.Sc, AIT, SCJP
Tony Alicea
Desperado
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 3222
    
    5
"I hate to say this but its more about who you know more than what you know. I am from Calgary, Canada"
At least you were accurate enough to say where you are looking for work.
Even now, in the USA, it's how much you know, not who you know.
I know, I was born and raised in a society like you picture where the best jobs are implicitly reserved for the "WHOs' WHO".
The US Commonwealth of Puerto Rico was, and I hear continues to be like that.
Yours truly got his first job in said Commonwealth as a Junior Programmer without having any "connections"; I am an exception to that rule. But I digress... (BTW, my 1st employer was Cornell University in PR).
Then I moved to the Mainland as a grad student and a US Defense Contractor "didn't" let me finish my MS in CS (@ SUNY, Stony Brook) by offering me a lot of money right then and there to join them which I did.
What a change from the patriarchal employment system in Puerto Rico to the "what only matters is your abilities" system of the USA. I won the lottery :-)
Maybe if Canada becomes less socialist (or whatever) it will be the same for you.
To Each His Own.


Tony Alicea
Senior Java Web Application Developer, SCPJ2, SCWCD
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
It still seems to me that the best way to find a job you will be happy with is through personal networking. In other words, "who you know" can still help you land a sweet job.
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
In the United States, who you know is definately more important than what you know, providing you can perform the job. Many times jobs are filled by a friend of an employee before they are even listed to the general public.
Bartholemu Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 08, 2001
Posts: 317
Well I guess people have different opinions, and I respect that. Different areas operate differently, and as do companies.
Btw Canada is not a Socialist country...just so you know

[This message has been edited by Faisal Dosani (edited June 24, 2001).]
John Coxey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 24, 2000
Posts: 503
Chris Thibault:
In a previous message you write:
"In the United States, who you know is definately more important than what you know, providing you can perform the job. Many times jobs are filled by a friend of an employee before they are even listed to the general public."
-----
Don't use the above as an excuse for not finding employment in the IT field.
In the United States, you can still get a decent job just by cold calling. All of my jobs (with the exception of Osh-Kosh) were landed via cold calling. Granted, it's a lot easier if you "know someone" - but you can still land great jobs by knocking on doors.
That's the one great thing about the USA - Your success in life is not dependent on who your father was.
John Coxey
(jpcoxey@aol.com)

John Coxey
Evansville, Indiana, USA
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
"Don't use the above as an excuse for not finding employment in the IT field."
There was no excuse offered. I made a truthful statement about how jobs go to people who network more often.
"That's the one great thing about the USA - Your success in life is not dependent on who your father was."
I never said it was. It can be depend on who *you* know. It has nothing to do with your social class. People are more likely to hire people they already know, or have some sort of connection within the office.
If you had a job opening and a friend that could do the job, would you hire him or try to interview ten plus people? Don't forget about all the overhead of listing a job, reviewing resumes, making call backs, etc. Most people would offer the job to the friend and skip the overhead. Why risk hiring someone who *may* work out when you can hire someone you *know* will work out?
Bartholemu Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 08, 2001
Posts: 317
I guess people have really different views on what is the best avenue to secure employment. I have to say networking and cold calling are the best. I have to agree more with Chris. John I think you mis-understood his posting slightly. I dont thin he was making a excuse for himself, but rather making a statement.
No harm
Cheers
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Faisal Dosani
B.Sc, AIT, SCJP
anurag priya
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 19, 2000
Posts: 72
dear all ! hi !
"connections work only for the enry not for the exits "!
dont think that in a capitalist country like The US anyone is going to spare you just because you know someone great neither are they going to spare you for your performance .so defenetely what you know is more important than who you know .afterall you are going for the software developement not for the marriage !
hope everyone agrees! )
anurag.


Anurag priya
SCJP 2(83%); Brain Bench Certified for: Masters level EJB2.0(97%) - Masters level J2EE (83%) - BEA-WebLogic Application Server8.1 (86% )
Richard Vagner
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 26, 2001
Posts: 107
So can you share your experience in "cold calls"? Who did you really call? HR? Department Manager? What did you usually say to them?
Thanks a lot,

Originally posted by Faisal Dosani:
I guess people have really different views on what is the best avenue to secure employment. I have to say networking and cold calling are the best. I have to agree more with Chris. John I think you mis-understood his posting slightly. I dont thin he was making a excuse for himself, but rather making a statement.
No harm
Cheers

Bartholemu Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 08, 2001
Posts: 317
bdong,
My advice for cold calling is this:
If you know the person who you want to talk to, just ask the receptionist the persons name, and if you have a direct phone number thats even better.
Ask for someone in the IT department, like a manager or lead. HR is there for screening, so they will most likely brush you off. Worst comes to worst give them a try.
I would suggest starting out by asking the person if they can "Help you out". Most people like to be in a situation where they can help you out, it makes them feel important and good.
Ask them what they do, and what technologies they use. Showing and expressing interest in their work helps.
If they sound annoyed then try and let them go, as you dont want to make enemies only friends
Dont ever ask for a job, the best thing to ask for is career advice. People love ot talk about themselves so if you are new to the IT field or city a question like "How did you get in to the field?". Or "I was wondering if you could tell me the status of the IT market in XXXXXX city"...You get the idea.
If they ask you "Are you looking for a job", you could say yes but emphisize that you are more interested in career advice and learning more about the market. I think this is a key point. Someone who doesnt know you has no reason to help someone who is looking for a job. They have thier own job ot worry about.
Most of the time they will ask you to send your resume over...Its worked for my friends and myself. Asking for a job is like shooting your self in the foot. Showing interest ina company and wat they are involved in is a better way of getting noticed.
I hope that made sense. But obviously this is just my opinion, I'm sure others will disagree with my comments.
Cheers
Faisal

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Faisal Dosani
B.Sc, AIT, SCJP
[This message has been edited by Faisal Dosani (edited June 26, 2001).]
Richard Vagner
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 26, 2001
Posts: 107

Dear Faisal:
Thank you so much for your reply. Great advice! I have another question for you though. How did you find out those companies? Did you just pick a company name from a yellow book and make the call?
Thanks again
Originally posted by Faisal Dosani:
bdong,
My advice for cold calling is this:
If you know the person who you want to talk to, just ask the receptionist the persons name, and if you have a direct phone number thats even better.
Ask for someone in the IT department, like a manager or lead. HR is there for screening, so they will most likely brush you off. Worst comes to worst give them a try.
I would suggest starting out by asking the person if they can "Help you out". Most people like to be in a situation where they can help you out, it makes them feel important and good.
Ask them what they do, and what technologies they use. Showing and expressing interest in their work helps.
If they sound annoyed then try and let them go, as you dont want to make enemies only friends
Dont ever ask for a job, the best thing to ask for is career advice. People love ot talk about themselves so if you are new to the IT field or city a question like "How did you get in to the field?". Or "I was wondering if you could tell me the status of the IT market in XXXXXX city"...You get the idea.
If they ask you "Are you looking for a job", you could say yes but emphisize that you are more interested in career advice and learning more about the market. I think this is a key point. Someone who doesnt know you has no reason to help someone who is looking for a job. They have thier own job ot worry about.
Most of the time they will ask you to send your resume over...Its worked for my friends and myself. Asking for a job is like shooting your self in the foot. Showing interest ina company and wat they are involved in is a better way of getting noticed.
I hope that made sense. But obviously this is just my opinion, I'm sure others will disagree with my comments.
Cheers
Faisal

Bartholemu Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 08, 2001
Posts: 317
Hey Again,
Yeah going thru the phonebook is a good idea. Maybe hitting the library, and find a listing of all the compnaies ina certain industry such as IT in your area, or locatoin. I know the Calgary library system has that. Or maybe visiting a career counciler to obtain such information. Thre are a many ways to go about this.
Cheers
Faisal
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Faisal Dosani
B.Sc, AIT, SCJP
Kajol Shroff
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 160
Hi Faisal Dosani,
I really aggree to what you say.
I think so thats the way it works.. Cold calls really work sometimes.. it just how you are presenting yourself.. thats impoartant...
Kajol
Chris Camisa
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 20, 2001
Posts: 4
Cold Calling...
For sure, it can't hurt one bit... In fact, that is how I've started my current job search. I've been out of college since the spring, and have in the interim continued to study the newly emerging Java technologies... Just last week I called a few companies who posted on different Java Job websites... Of course, I was only looking for jobs in the Chicago area (as I do not wish to relocate) and I found a number of them.
Once I called the facility I didn't ask to talk to the person whose name was on the job site, I just started to talk with the first person I was connected to... Some good questions that can be answered very soon after you start the conversation are: How large is your development team... what platforms are you running & how do you get the technology to work for you... In my experience the person I called was quite willing to talk with me about his company and his job.
We talked for 5-10 minutes, then he asked me to shoot him over a resume.
I really agree with you guys... Cold calling produces results.
--Good luck with your job searches.
--Chris Camisa
Bartholemu Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 08, 2001
Posts: 317
Hey Chris,
Thanks for sharing, That is really great. Thats mainly what happens, after talking to someone they ask you to send a resume over and its better then blindly shipping off your resume. It also shows your interest and ability to communicate.
How is the search going ? Or did you land something?
Cheers
Faze
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Faisal Dosani
B.Sc, AIT, SCJP
 
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