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Fully Certified, Jobless

Leon Lu
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 12, 2001
Posts: 2
I am really frustrated. After two weeks job hunting for Java developer, I cannot get any interview. Posting resume on the web seems useless. Applying jobs through email is also uesless.
Even with all my certifications, I am still jobless.
Here is the list of my certifications:
BEA Certified WebLogic 6.0 Developer (85%)
IBM Certified Solution Developer for WAS 3.5(75%)
Sun Certified Enterprise Architect for J2EE (part 1 90%)
IBM 486 OOAD with UML (85%)
IBM 483 Enterprise Connectivity with J2EE (85%)
SCJP (95%)
Fully jCertied level 1, 2 and 3
I recently completed my M.S. in CS from a pretty good school(Penn State Univ.). It is really bad time for entry-level job seekers.
I almost acquired all the Java Certifications in this planet. But still cannot get even an interview.
With my background, getting interviews should not be that difficult. I am frustrated.What kind of developers are recruiters looking for? Is the Java market dead?
What I should I do next? Any suggestions?
Thanks a lot.
Sameer Jamal
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 16, 2001
Posts: 1870
What I suggets is place your forced resume to some companies instead of sending it through mail, go personally there and meet with someone in HR.
Raghav Mathur
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 12, 2001
Posts: 641
i just have one thing to say

I DON'T BELIEVE THIS


Raghav.
krishna anand
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 21, 2001
Posts: 61
Dear Friend
Please do not limit yourself to just Java Jobs .There might be openings for C/C++ Jobs .Why not try there ? It is true that job market is very bad for entry level I.T Professionals .But do not loose hope .See what sort of Jobs are available and try for the same .Did you post your resume in www.dice.com ?
------------------
Krishna


Krishna
Raghav Mathur
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 12, 2001
Posts: 641
krishna :
its not that bad that a person like leon cannot find a job .
M Prembroke
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 03, 2000
Posts: 56
I'm sure you'll find work in time, but it will take several months. There are many unemployed Americans out of work now, and there is little reason for companies to hire entry-level developers when they can just get an experienced H-1B instead (and cheaper too).
The H1 quota hasn't been maxed for this year, and it's preferrable to hire someone with a few years paid experience than hire a fresh grad from a US university.
John Coxey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 24, 2000
Posts: 503
Leon:
We need some more information here:
1. Can you post a link to your resume here. If not, can you send me a copy of your resume.
2. Are you a US-Citizen or do you need H1B sponsorship.
The problem may be with your resume' so I want to do a quick look and get back to you on this.
3. Two weeks is a pretty short time in this current market. I would say 8 to 12 weeks on a full 40 hour per week job search will get you the results you need.
4. I hope you are not looking in the Penn State (State College, PA) area. About all that's hiring in tht area is Raytheon and that's for C/C++. Meaning, you MUST be willing to relocate - else, you may be in the job hunting game for awhile.
----------------------------
Other notes:
- Just placing your resume on the job boards will not work any more. It worked last year - but not this year.
- You need to e-mail a cover letter to the contact person listed in the job advertisement. You then attach (in MS-Word) a copy of your resume. DO NOT JUST BLINDLY SEND A RESUME WITHOUT A COVER LETTER - NEVER VIOLATE THIS RULE!!!

For some reason, we have debated this on JavaRanch in the past - but MS-Word is a standard in USA business. It is perfectly legal to attach an MS-Word resume to your cover letter e-mail. And in fact, is the way I prefer to get resume's.
- You need to followup (by phone) in one week (not before and not after) with the contact person.
- Fire your resume/cover letter to at least 10 good leads every week - the ones that you are going to do followups on. In addition, go ahead and fire your resume/cover letter to any possible lead you can think of - even if there is no contact phone number or if they say to send to "Human Resources".
- Don't send to more than 10 quality leads per week - as your job search will become full time (if you do this right and actually make follup phone calls and go on interviews/etc.) If you send out more - it gets to be a nightmare trying to keep up.
----------
And as always, remember that a job search is a game. Keep that in mind - and have fun at it. It really does not have to be like passing kidney stones.
Good luck and get me a copy of your resume.
John Coxey
(jpcoxey@aol.com)

John Coxey
Evansville, Indiana, USA
Christophe Lee
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 142
This is extremely disappointing. I am going to graduate with a BS in MIS/CS from UofArizona this December. Two semesters ago, my peers were being sucked out of school like no other, easily generating 50k offers with almost no technical skill (but of course, with high marks in the MIS curriculum).
I've had two solid internships (doing one right now) and am SCJP certified. Now, if Leon can't get a job, I most definitely can't get a job.
I'm a US citizen and willing to relocate. In fact, I INISIST on relocating (Tucson is good, but.....)
UofA has traditionally attracted tons of recruiters with its strong MIS program, but with the slowdown, for the first time ever I'm thinking I won't get a good offer.
I don't have a particular question here, but just wanted to see what other people thought (John seems to give good advice But other thoughts are of course welcome also!
Oh yes, in particular I was wondering if it was worth it to pursue my SCJD or the upcoming SCSWD. But in Leon's case, it doesn't look like it helps much.
Chris
steb
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 07, 2001
Posts: 12
I'd say, if you are a fresh C.S. grad, forget about the job. Do something else. IT job market is pretty much dead now for people even with 5+ years of hands-on expereience.
What follows are rules that my brother followed when he was looking for job recently. He got 3 offers out of about 10 leads. He's Java "guru", he's working with Java technologies since 1996.
1) Knock on doors! That means: send out unsolicited resumes. If you're lucky, you'll slip in that short time period when a request for add'l resource has been issued, but the job ad hasn't been posted yet.
2) Use Email and web to submit your resume. No paper (except when the ad says so).
3) Forget about MS-Word. Most companies want resumes in plain ASCII. It's not because they are picky,, it's just for them to keep resumes parsed and in databases. One HR manager told my brother that when he sees an MS-Word attachment, he just drops it into the windows recycle basket - so much people are affraid of macro viruses that come in MS-Word files!
4) Get on an OpenSource project. When done, put it on your resume. Don't mention it was an OpenSource. Let it look like it was just a regular commercial stuff.
5) Try to move outside of Java. Best bet is C++. Second one is any kind of ERP: SAP, PeopleSoft, Oracle Financials, etc.
6) Wear suit AND tie when going to an interview. A MUST! Don't listen to other people who say that they prefer to be judged by his knowledge and experience (by the way, these people DO wear suits on interviews). Remember: your look DOES MATTER. Choosing a right tie helps too.
7) If you put your resume to places like dice or monter, put alot (I mean like 100 or 150) words 'JAVA' into the "Keyword" section, or at the end of yer resume. Reason being, when headhunter looks for a resume there by a keyword, the resumes are sorted by the number of times the keyword occures in the text. Don't forget, headhunters usually pick top 10 or 20 off the whole list! Even though more and more poeple have discovered this trick, it could help you too.
P.S. FYI my brother is a naturalized U.S. citizen, although he speeks English quite poorly.
William Barnes
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 16, 2001
Posts: 984

I'd say, if you are a fresh C.S. grad, forget about the job. Do something else. IT job market is pretty much dead now for people even with 5+ years of hands-on expereience.

Very silly comment. Getting a job may be a little harder but there is no way the field is "dead"!


Please ignore post, I have no idea what I am talking about.
steb
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 07, 2001
Posts: 12
Christopher,
would you mind sharing your recent expirience of a job search? If there's none, then what you said is just an empty statement.
Originally posted by christopher foran:
I'd say, if you are a fresh C.S. grad, forget about the job. Do something else. IT job market is pretty much dead now for people even with 5+ years of hands-on expereience.

Very silly comment. Getting a job may be a little harder but there is no way the field is "dead"!

Christophe Lee
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 142
My experience searching for a job has been, for the most part, fairly positive. I haven't graduated yet, so I've been interviewing through my school's (UofArizona) Career Services. So far, I've worked two internships (one currently).
Last summer, finding a job was extremely easy. I jumped into the interviewing process extremely late and still secured my first interview with Honeywell developing servlets.
This summer, I interviewed extensively with 10+ companies ranging in size and background from Intel, IBM, Agilent to State Farm Insurance, some local Tucson company and some others.
None hired me.
Finally, I found a job designing databases this summer and it's unrelated to Java.
I don't know how my experiences can help you unless you're also in school. The only thing that I know is, it's getting harder to get a job, but of course you guys out in the "real" market probably know better than I do.
William Barnes
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 16, 2001
Posts: 984

steb http://www.javaranch.com/ubb/Forum32/HTML/000810.html
It seems like at least two people are planning on getting jobs.
steb
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 07, 2001
Posts: 12
Christopher,
I'm not sure if I made myself clear, but let me repeat my question: "would you mind sharing your recent expirience of a job search?" In other words, have you been out there going through interviews during, say, last four or six months?
Please don't mention any experience which has happened more than year ago. We all now, myself including, how well the job market has been back then. The real waves of layoffs have started coming approximately fall last year.
Finding a job last summer was relatievly easy. By some coincidence that's exactly when I switched jobs last time. Finding a job today isn't impossible, but close to it. Many companies went throough layoffs, some through more than one. That's why there is an excessive supply of IT workers on the market. If you can't find a job, it's not because you're unqualified or unfit for it. More likely it's because you have a very small chance, competing against other 10+ candidates who all have resumes twice longer than yours...
Originally posted by christopher foran:
steb http://www.javaranch.com/ubb/Forum32/HTML/000810.html
It seems like at least two people are planning on getting jobs.

William Barnes
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 16, 2001
Posts: 984

What I said was that your comment about IT being dead was silly. I agree that IT isn't doing wildly great at the moment, and even agree that most companies don't do a good job of hiring people out of school.
But if IT is dead than your version of the future is very different than mine. I see computers being used more, becoming smaller, portable and even more important in our lives. I see more computer languages being created. I see lots of new hardware being invented, which will need software to run it. I see lots of code being written. I see the internet getting larger and more important.
Just because I have a job doesn't mean that IT is doing great, or if someone else doesn't have a job that it is dead.
I have not looked for a job, outside of my own company, for over 6 years. But I don't know how relevent that is to having an opinion about the state of IT.
(Since this thread seems to be a conversation between the two of us I will not post anything else until I have something to say to everyone.)
Thanks.
Christophe Lee
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 142
That's not true, I posted once...
John Coxey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 24, 2000
Posts: 503
Christophe Lee:
Don't worry about what others are saying about IT being dead - because it isn't.
Don't worry about Leon Lu not being able to get a job. There is obviously something wrong with either his interview approach, job search methods, or resume. And you can't worry about how everyone else is doing with their job search.
I can tell you from personal experience, the companies interviewing on-campus are looking more for production support type people than straight developers. Most have their own in-house training program for deveopers. I found that I got lots of second interview - but they were for maintaining C/C++/Cobol code or for doing production support (on the software side).
Given that you have some internships under your belt...I would still keep hitting up your previous employer(s) and the career services.
Also, start applying NOW!!! to ANY company listing 2 years or less experience. You might get a free plane trip (i.e. vacation) and in the process grab a job. Wouldn't it be nice to have a US$45 to US$50K job lined up BEFORE your graduate.
Also, get your SCJD. From what I hear - it's not nearly as difficult or time consuming as the SJCP exam. And again, it helps separate you out from the other folks when applying for jobs.
John Coxey
(jpcoxey@aol.com)

[This message has been edited by John Coxey (edited July 15, 2001).]
krishna anand
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 21, 2001
Posts: 61

Dear Christophe Lee & Others seeking Jobs
Kindly follow John Coxey's advice .I fully support him and feel that his advice is quite practical as he had his own tough experience in getting a Job .Do not loose hope .You will definitely come out with flying colors .Wishing you all the best.
------------------
Krishna
[This message has been edited by krishna anand (edited July 15, 2001).]
steb
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 07, 2001
Posts: 12
Originally posted by John Coxey:

Don't worry about what others are saying about IT being dead - because it isn't.

yeah. dream on, buddy.
here, read this: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010716/tc/bizeconomy_employment_dc_1.html
John Coxey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 24, 2000
Posts: 503
Steb:
Go ahead and use the media as an excuse not to find a job.
Go ahead and tell me that it's impossible to go from being a tractor-trailer driver to a PhD-Comp.Sci. student.
Go ahead and tell me that it is impossible to land US$90K/year jobs in the IT field these days.
-----
If you want reality then read on:
I just received 3 offers in May/June for IT programming jobs:
1. Raytheon - US$65K/yr.
2. Penn State - US $50K/yr.
3. Hewlett-Packard - US $90K/yr + new car every year.
I had on-site interviews scheduled with the following companies - but ended up cancelling due to employment with HP:
1. Sprint PCS - Nashville, TN
2. Sprint PCS - Kansas City, MO
3. General Electric - Gaithersburg, MD

I was turned down - no offer - even after on-site interviews.
1. Synchronoss Technologies - Bethlehem, PA --- but the salary range would have been in the US$65K - to US$75K range. This would have been a 100% J2EE/XML position - designing customer care packages for Bell Atlantic / Bell South.
-----
I currently work for Hewlett-Packard in Philadelphia, PA - but continue to live in Denver, CO.
I get to fly-fish all over the world. Something most guys only dream about - because they make excuses for themselves like you are doing.
Let me tell you about this month's scheduled fly-fishing activities: You can apply to your own favorite sport/hobby as well - just using mine as an example. BTW/ I am not making any of this up.
This week. Attended a catered on-stream breakfast with about 100 other folks on the banks of the Little Lehigh Creek in Allentown, PA (about 50 miles north of Philly).
Two weeks from Sunday: Fishing the Sacramento River for trophy rainbows near Mt.Shasta, CA.
The next day (Monday): Boss says I can take a day off and fish for Lahotian Cutthroats in the Truckee River in Reno, NV. Stream stays cold due to bottom release dam from lake. So you can fish for trout in middle of the desert.
Aug 10/11/12/13: Since I agreed to spend entire month of August in Philly. Boss says I can fly over to Jackson Hole, WY to fish the Snake River for cutthroats/browns.
Oh, I forgot to mention - I am fishing the Cheeseman Canyon this Saturday on the South Platte River about 2 hours from Denver, CO.
And this Friday afternoon - I am fishing for wild browns in Valley Forge National Park - before I leave for Denver.
---------
Steb:
Why did I include all of the fly-fishing information above?
To show you that YOU - YES YOU!!! - can succeed in YOUR DREAMS!!!
No one is going to give you a hand-out. Life doesn't work this way. If YOU want to live your dreams - then YOU have to make it happen.
If I followed your advice of "no jobs out there" - I'd be sitting in a truck stop b.s.ing with some waitress. No, I wouldn't have had the guts to spend US$150K on a tractor-trailer. No, I'd probablty still be cleaning golf carts. Can't believe there are guys still there from the early 80's doing the same job day after boring day.
-----------
So Steb, quit your whining. Yeah, it's tough out there. But it's not the end of the world as you make it out to be.
Yeah, I busted by rear-end off for the past 8 years to get to this point in my career. Was I lucky - maybe yes, maybe no. But I earned it, and am not afraid to share my experiences.
Sincerely,
John Coxey
(jpcoxey@aol.com)

P.S. Here are some links to my success story:
http://www.javaranch.com/ubb/Forum37/HTML/000389.html http://www.javaranch.com/ubb/Forum37/HTML/000515.html

[This message has been edited by John Coxey (edited July 16, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by John Coxey (edited July 16, 2001).]
John Coxey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 24, 2000
Posts: 503
Steb:
Just reading the article you linked to.
It sounds like the writer needed an angle to fill her daily writing quota:
I love the last line in the article - really brings in a sense of credibility - NOT!!!
QUOTE:
Finally, one of the group brings a job opportunity to the table -- a friend is leaving her work as an office assistant at a penile implant clinic. It pays $10 an hour but there is a catch -- they want the new employee to assist in surgery. A collective groan emerges
------------
Sounds more like a bunch of loosers than anything.
Always remember, loosers will complain about anything - it's winners that go out and find opportunity.
It's your decision - are you a winner or a looser.
John Coxey
(jpcoxey@aol.com)
William Barnes
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 16, 2001
Posts: 984

[whine]
How come "steb" don't have to use his real name like the rest of us?
[/whine]
John - remind me to never challange you to a writing contest.
I will say that I hate looking for a job like almost nothing else in life. Except for maybe being stuck in a room with lots of screaming kids. So I don't have any problem with people bitching about that what so ever.
John Coxey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 24, 2000
Posts: 503
Christopher Foran:
If you think of the job-search as a game - and go at it full time, it does not have to be like childbirth. Granted, the first time I looked for work in the IT field - I was terrified. But, over time, you get used to the job search process.
In these days, job-search skills are just as important as computer-science (IT) skills.
If you approach it as a game - and follow the rules - it really can be a whole lot of fun.
The absolute worst part of the job search - is lugging my suite-case, fly fising stuff, and a suite bag (for suites & ties) clear across to the other end of the airport - or out to the rental car. Man do I hate that. Where I work at now is all casual dress - and I finally got a suitecase with wheels on it.
Also gave up using a carrying case for the laptop. Instead, I wrap the laptop in a towel and put in in a backpack.
---------
Well, it's now 7:45AM here in Philly. Guess its time to make the 3 minute commute on over to work. We are working with JSP's and XSL's this week.
Gotta run,
Johnny
Christophe Lee
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 142
I suddenly have the urge to post my resume to John...
kash aziz
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 17, 2001
Posts: 1
John: can u tell some more about ur progress story - i am here in UK since last 2 months and actively seeking job but have no success yet - i possess a skill set contaning Cold Fusion, VB, Access, Java etc
any suggestions?
Rob Andren
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 17, 2001
Posts: 1
I am just finishing up an 8-month full time program at the Chubb Institute and I'm about ready to pass the first certification test. I realize that in this market, I'll have to work a lot of numbers, but I'm planning a full blitz of resumes and phone calls in the New York area starting this week. Besides responding to every ad out there, are there any suggestions on efficient ways to come up with a list of companies that may need java programmers? By the way, John, I've been checking these postings for a few days now and have found your messages highly encouraging. Thanks - Rob.
Marcus Green
arch rival
Rancher

Joined: Sep 14, 1999
Posts: 2813
This whole thread started with someone saying they were dissapointed to not have found a job after two weeks of job hunting. Let me repeat that figure, two weeks.
I have been in a position to recruit 7 programmers in the last two years. It can frequently take more than 2 weeks to get around to reading your resume. If you go via an agency it can take two weeks before they send your resume to a potential employer. When I was searching for my current job, (SCJP, BA, 10 years industry experience bla bla) it took me about 6 months to get my first Java programming job and I sent my resume to 900 agencies (yes 900). Now all this is based on experience in the UK not the USA, but assuming there are some paralells, should people worry excessivly about a two week job hunt?
I would suggest that Mr Fly fishing is somewhat overselling the dream, its a bit like saying hey become a writer, look how successful I am (Signed Stephen King), but to dispair after reading about someone having spent two weeks searching for a job without luck is going the other way.
Marcus


SCWCD: Online Course, 50,000+ words and 200+ questions
http://www.examulator.com/moodle/course/view.php?id=5&topic=all
John Coxey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 24, 2000
Posts: 503
Marcus:
Sorry if I went overboard - but I get so tired of people saying that it "can't be done" - especially this "Steb" person's response. I also intended my story to be an inspiration for others.
And yes, I am guilty of showing off.
I talked with Leon Lu (original poster) - and he agreed that 2 weeks was pushing it a bit. I am also in the process of reviewing Mr. Lu's resume and am helping him out in that regard (offline).
BTW/ I enjoyed your practice exams for the SCJP2.
Gotta run,
John Coxey
(jpcoxey@aol.com)

[This message has been edited by John Coxey (edited July 18, 2001).]
Cindy Glass
"The Hood"
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 29, 2000
Posts: 8521
I have to agree with Marcus. The first thing I did when I read this post was laugh. The AVERAGE time for a professional to get a job in the US is about 4 months. Even good techies.
Sounds like someone either with not much patience, or very unrealistic.


"JavaRanch, where the deer and the Certified play" - David O'Meara
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Cindy Glass:
I have to agree with Marcus. The first thing I did when I read this post was laugh. The AVERAGE time for a professional to get a job in the US is about 4 months. Even good techies.
Sounds like someone either with not much patience, or very unrealistic.

4 months?!?! but.... but... what happened to "internet time?" but McDonalds serves me food in under a minute! And my friend, two years ago, he posted his resume and got, like, a bazillion calls offing jobs! And damnit, I'm American, and instant gratification is my constutitional right! Isn't there some website like www.iwannajobnow.com I can go to?

(This wasn't directed at leon or anyone else, but rather a general theme to some postings over the last few months. It was posted, not to start a flame war, for entertainment purposes only. ;-)

--Mark
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
"steb",
The Java Ranch has thousands of visitors every week, many with surprisingly similar names. To avoid confusion we have a naming convention, described at http://www.javaranch.com/name.jsp . We require names to have at least two words, separated by a space, and strongly recommend that you use your full real name. Please log in with a new name which meets the requirements.
Thanks.

--Mark
steb
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 07, 2001
Posts: 12
Hey Mr Fisherman here is another link for you:
http://www.thestandard.com/trackers/layoff/
Just do a simple math, and keep in mind those 15 to 20 thousand that Lucent is going to layoff today or tomorrow. Consider that most IT companies are on hiring freeze now. How many do you think are competing for few vacant places? Take our neighbor company as an example: they posted a Java position on dice.com (nothing fancy, the only req was 1+ year of Java plus a database exp'nce) last week. Guess how many resumes they got? about four hundred! And we are located not in a metro area or near, but in a small town of 5000+ population, in a middle of nowhere. Have all these Java folks who sent the resumes looked at the map at all? Or were they so desperate to find a job that they didn't have time for geography?
Nothing can prohibit you or anyone from restless self-assuring and labeling everyone who can't find a job to be a loser. Except maybe for a reality check.
Scott Hajer
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 26, 2001
Posts: 29
This may or may not be of value, but here is some
perspective on the current state of IT hiring.
I'm a corporate recruiter for an IT consulting firm
in the Chicago area, though I have contact with
recruiters nationally.
What I'm seeing is that many companies are in a
"strategic hiring mode." Whereas last year many
companies had more projects than they had people,
and consequently would hire anybody who could spell
xml or java, things have changed. Today money is tight and
companies are looking for "perfect fits." They have
very specific requirements and are rarely willing to
stretch, or hire a person and grow him or her into
the position.
This does not mean that the world is ending or that
entry-level people can't get jobs. In fact, in this
market, be glad it IS java that you know. That's where
I see *all* the demand in my area. What the tight job
market means is that job seekers will have to look longer
and work harder to find their next position.
Follow up every resume submission with a phone call. It
will help set you apart. Make sure everyone you know knows
you are looking for a job. Learn to work it into every
conversation as easily as "how 'bout this weather." I really
mean every conversation--even the person who cuts your
hair should know about your skills and career search. It's
a smaller world than you think.
Don't be dismayed by the doom and gloom reports--companies
ARE hiring java. We, for example, have multiple positions open.
However, we too are seeking the elusive perfect fit...
Scott


Scott Hajer<br />Manager<br />Pariveda Solutions<br /> <br /><a href="http://www.parivedasolutions.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">www.aquent-it-solutions.com</a><br /><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/scotthajer" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">My LinkedIn Profile</a><br /> <br />
Bryan Timmins
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 26, 2001
Posts: 48
With those purported skills and education I am guessing we have a personality issue here, not a technical experience issue. Times are lean, but not "dead". Respectfully...


<a href="http://www.bryantimmins.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Bryan Timmins</a> <br />SCJP2
Sameer Jamal
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 16, 2001
Posts: 1870
Hey leon after so big discussion "Have You Got The Job"
Leon Lu
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 12, 2001
Posts: 2
Originally posted by Sameer Jamal:
Hey leon after so big discussion "Have You Got The Job"

Thank you all for such a big discussion.
No luck after almost 5 weeks active hunting, almost 500 resumes. Only got one interview but pissed off for no commercial experience.Even with my new certification:Sun Certified Web Component Developer.
It seems no place for entry-level persons. I cannot see the reason why employer prefer newbies to experienced guys.
Without experience certifications are just pieces of paper.
I do not think all these exams are difficult. I completed all of them within 3 months with pretty decent scores.
I am lucky to be able to land a C++ job early this year. I am building experience now. Maybe certifications will make a big difference for career advancement.
Good luck.
-----------------------------
Certified fully, recognized nowhere, jobless everywhere
M.S. in Computer Science
BEA Certified WebLogic 6.0 Developer
Sun Certified Enterprise Architect for J2EE (part 1, no motivation for part 2 &3 now)
Sun Certifid Web Component Developer
IBM Certified Solution Developer for WAS 3.5
IBM 486 OOA with UML
IBM 483 Enterprise Connectivity with J2EE
SCJP
jCertified Level 1, 2 and 3
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Leon, have you tried going back to your college career services dept? Many of them will help alumni get jobs (I just saw an artcile on this recently). I see that you just graduated, but come fall, don't think just because you're out of school they can't help you.
I generally don't put much stock in certifications (as you said, they're not too difficult). One thing I noticed is that you're working on SCJA, which is for architects. Because you're just out of school, no one will hire you (or anyone with your lack of experience) to architect a big system. That's no reflection on your personally, just the value of experience in building systems. If you try to get more, don't focus on those high level certifications, but rather the more basic ones.
Are you only looking in one geographic area?
--Mark
William Barnes
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 16, 2001
Posts: 984


Nothing can prohibit you or anyone from restless self-assuring and labeling everyone who can't find a job to be a loser. Except maybe for a reality check.

I guess I missed the part where someone called you a loser. All I have seen is people disagreeing with your arguments. I haven't seen anyone make a personal attack.
Hideaki Takashima
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 25, 2001
Posts: 13
Hi. Leon Lu. You have passed SCWD test, have't you. Could you share the information of the test. You seemed to take the test on 7/31 in the morning, becasue the test started on 7/31. Right aftet you passed the exam, did you get the interview? How was the reaction of interviwer on this cert?
Thank you.
Karl Fu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 26, 2001
Posts: 41
I am very amazed with the number of cert that Leon had.
I am also running in a similar situation like him except that I don't have that many certs and a master degree (quite a big diff actually), however, my job search has been over 8 months since my graduation (Canada-Toronto).
I was a business admin student with no computer skills 2 years ago(I was in my 3 year). I found that accounting and finance stuff is very boring, so I decided to changed my major to Information Technology. With lots of hard working, I managed to complete my degree with 2 additional year of study (very compressed and heavy work load).
I began my job search right after my graduation (Dec 2000). After 3 months of active searching, I found that companies don't like fresh grad with no coops experience very much. But there is nothing much i can do for that. Therefore, I decided to go for my first Java Cert. I find it pretty easy and passed it. However, with my level 1 cert, I still wasn't able to get a job.
I am not looking into any particular type of jobs, just any entry level computer related ones....I applied for junior programmers, tech support, helpdesk .... and anything within U.S and Canada.
No response...While my job hunt continue, I go for the developer cert and passed it (96%)... look for jobs for another 2 months....same result...
During that period, I have been going to many job workshops, school job fairs, professional resume editors to try to hunt down my problems....not much was found and being very helpful.
Like Leon, I am frustrated....but one thing I noticed is that there are very few java junior positions....most company hires experienced c++ programmers to work as junior java programmers. Also, just Java is not enough to get you a job. Although, I am not able to find a job in this period, I had been doing alot of self-study to advance myself (In Micrsoft technologies, databases and web technologies). I guess being more well rounded would let you enter the market easier.
Now, I am pursuing the Oracle DBA cert...hope this combination works !
Don't give up leon and good luck !
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: Fully Certified, Jobless
 
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