Why this hatred for H1B

Why this hatred against H1B workers. Your grudge should be against the U.S. government who have increased th H1B quota from 65K to 195K. When they didn't required that number. It is just a consipiracy between the government and the industry who relish cheap workforce. And when you let that quantity in then definitely you won't have quality. I'm not generalizing it but my experience in most of the project was that Americans would grant themselves the documentation work and will leave the coding on to Indians. Again that's not true always because I have worked and I am working with excellent American programmers. But commenting on currys and English speaking capabilities, is going off the track. And again all H1B workers are not same, there are people who carry themselves better than Americans around, but the only thing is they are less in number.
Neha

I agree (except for the documentation part).
And if people think that their co-works are slackers (for what-ever reason) than they should tell their managers to fire them.
[This message has been edited by christopher foran (edited September 04, 2001).]

I agree too. Being and H1B by myself, I found these attitude very bad. I am sure that if there is an opportunity then whether it is American or Indian or any other national people will try to catch it. From a country like India or China H1B program to USA is an excellent opportunity. So blame the gov. and try to fix the problem instead of writing and talking against H1B workers and their behaviour based on culture.
Regards
ARSKumar

In my experience, most programmers seem to strongly prefer coding to writing documentation. Do you have reason to believe one group of programmers is grabbing the documentation work because they prefer it?
That some of my co-workers think I like doing documentation merely illustrates that I think it has to be done, and done as well as I can do it, if not better.

Originally posted by Neha Sharma:
... Your grudge should be against the U.S. government who have increased th H1B quota from 65K to 195K. When they didn't required that number ...And when you let that quantity in then definitely you won't have quality....
Neha

Great!!! Finally I am in Bombay .. but there is one problem .. so many people all across the India are coming in. We should stop this.
GOSH! This H1 quota sucks .. I wonder why they don't increase it... I am so much stressed ... what if I don't get my H1?
Great!! I got my H1B I am in US now.
I am already inside Silicon Valley. I think its getting crowded, we shouldn't allow people from other states to come to California.
Job Market is down .. So much competition from these other H1B's .. U know what? They should reduce the quota.
Yes, I am in !!! U should close doors now. Now, that I am an insider we don't need outsiders. I am THE quality. It's already crowded. And when you let that quantity in then definitely you won't have quality.
After few years, I 'll get my green card and then citizenship. Thank god they allow us to edit these posts because in future when I become "complete" insider I would like to oppose H1B out right and not just high quota ... Of course they should still allow few really talented people to come in .. eg my younger brother and 2 of my cousins .. trust me unlike other H1Bs from India, they are really good quality ... Just like me. Rest are just quantity.
-Shashank
[This message has been edited by shashank bapat (edited September 05, 2001).]

Good one shashank!!
You Got it exactly right
Neha

Come on ..... now don't start it all over again ..... we have already discuss this topic in great detail .

Originally posted by Neha Sharma:
Why this hatred against H1B workers. Your grudge should be against the U.S. government who have increased th H1B quota from 65K to 195K. When they didn't required that number. It is just a consipiracy between the government and the industry who relish cheap workforce. And when you let that quantity in then definitely you won't have quality. I'm not generalizing it but my experience in most of the project was that Americans would grant themselves the documentation work and will leave the coding on to Indians. Again that's not true always because I have worked and I am working with excellent American programmers. But commenting on currys and English speaking capabilities, is going off the track. And again all H1B workers are not same, there are people who carry themselves better than Americans around, but the only thing is they are less in number.
Neha

Originally posted by shashank bapat:
Great!!! Finally I am in Bombay .. but there is one problem .. so many people all across the India are coming in. We should stop this.
GOSH! This H1 quota sucks .. I wonder why they don't increase it... I am so much stressed ... what if I don't get my H1?
Great!! I got my H1B I am in US now.
I am already inside Silicon Valley. I think its getting crowded, we shouldn't allow people from other states to come to California.
Job Market is down .. So much competition from these other H1B's .. U know what? They should reduce the quota.
Yes, I am in !!! U should close doors now. Now, that I am an insider we don't need outsiders. I am THE quality. It's already crowded. And when you let that quantity in then definitely you won't have quality.
After few years, I 'll get my green card and then citizenship. Thank god they allow us to edit these posts because in future when I become "complete" insider I would like to oppose H1B out right and not just high quota ... Of course they should still allow few really talented people to come in .. eg my younger brother and 2 of my cousins .. trust me unlike other H1Bs from India, they are really good quality ... Just like me. Rest are just quantity.
-Shashank
[This message has been edited by shashank bapat (edited September 05, 2001).]

This is one of the best explanation of the so called GC Syndrom I have ever heard ! Good writing Shashank !
- ARSKumar

Raghav, I couldn't find anything more interesting to discuss, so draging with the repeated stuff.

Originally posted by shashank bapat:
Great!!! Finally I am in Bombay .. but there is one problem .. so many people all across the India are coming in. We should stop this.
GOSH! This H1 quota sucks .. I wonder why they don't increase it... I am so much stressed ... what if I don't get my H1?
Great!! I got my H1B I am in US now.
I am already inside Silicon Valley. I think its getting crowded, we shouldn't allow people from other states to come to California.
Job Market is down .. So much competition from these other H1B's .. U know what? They should reduce the quota.
Yes, I am in !!! U should close doors now. Now, that I am an insider we don't need outsiders. I am THE quality. It's already crowded. And when you let that quantity in then definitely you won't have quality.
After few years, I 'll get my green card and then citizenship. Thank god they allow us to edit these posts because in future when I become "complete" insider I would like to oppose H1B out right and not just high quota ... Of course they should still allow few really talented people to come in .. eg my younger brother and 2 of my cousins .. trust me unlike other H1Bs from India, they are really good quality ... Just like me. Rest are just quantity.
-Shashank
[This message has been edited by shashank bapat (edited September 05, 2001).]

Great!

well .... if you are so interested in this topic then why don't you read my post subjected as " good news for all you guys ..... job market is on the rise" ..... you will get enough material there .

Originally posted by Neha Sharma:
Raghav, I couldn't find anything more interesting to discuss, so draging with the repeated stuff.

[This message has been edited by raghav mathur (edited September 06, 2001).]

Hey Shashank, it was good one from you no doubts, there's no doubt about it that what you wrote was 100% true. An Indian doesn't look at another indian(or should I say 'don't want to') it's all GC syndrome. You should have written to me what I wrote to Raghav mathur few days ago 'dil pe mat le haath mein le yaar' so the truth is 'american se zyada hindustaniyon ke H1 se pareshani hai' Ha Ha Ha

See http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html for excellent discussion on H1-B visa abuse, age discrimination at 35, and the whole false propaganda about an IT programmer shortage. There may be a few points slightly off the mark, but overall it confirms everyone's worst suspicions...

Originally posted by herb slocomb:
.. There may be a few points slightly off the mark ..

I did go thru that once.
eg. To prove his point that H1Bs are paid less it says that due to their paperwork problems employers can take advantage of their situation.
Then at another place it uses salary as a basis to "prove" that most H1Bs are NOT highly skilled because their salaries are less. conveniently forgetting the reason he gave at other place for why the salaries are low.
Do they have 100 level logic classes at UC Davis?
BIASED
Thanks
-Shashank

the essential point that the H1b workers are paid less is not disproved by your criticism, only that the author made a slip. I would suspect he is correct on his essential points based on my conversations an Indian worker "held hostage" by a US corporation

Originally posted by herb slocomb:
the essential point that the H1b workers are paid less is not disproved by your criticism, only that the author made a slip. I would suspect he is correct on his essential points based on my conversations an Indian worker "held hostage" by a US corporation

No, and I did not try to.
I proved more essential point: �He is contradicting himself�.
So either his reasoning to first question was right OR his reasoning to second question was right. Both cannot be true. That too provided that statistics he used is not manipulated. (In that case both answers are lies).
Did u learn tautology, contradiction in Boolean algebra? Huh � do u need more logic classes from me to help you comprehend? Even more detailed explanation is needed? Should I use lucid language? I think my English is good enough here for easy communication (even though as per the generalizations made by people like you and this UC Davis guy; I shouldn't be good at that)
Why is he contradicting?
I think it's because he has done this research work (big joke) with a prejudice. He had answers/conclusions ready BEFORE gathering the facts and he is somehow trying to prove his points by being so obtrusively illogical. So it is not something worth reading if you read only good articles/papers.

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-Shashank
MS(CS),BS(CS),SCJP2

I think you've become a little too impressed with the acronyms after your name. Let's discuss the real issues which you do not and the link does :
1. Is there age discrimination ?
2. Are H1B workers being exploited by greedy companies?
3. Are American workers losing jobs to foreign workers becuase of H1B?
Your insults are a little overblown and not on the mark. Let's discuss this like civilized humans if you can.

Originally posted by herb slocomb:
I think you've become a little too impressed with the acronyms after your name. Let's discuss the real issues which you do not and the link does :
1. Is there age discrimination ?
2. Are H1B workers being exploited by greedy companies?
3. Are American workers losing jobs to foreign workers becuase of H1B?
Your insults are a little overblown and not on the mark. Let's discuss this like civilized humans if you can.

Herb,
OK. let me put it in more civilized manner.
A.> I only jump in when someone starts to generalize about education, English and real knowledge of H1B's. I have seen people making rampant allegations against H1B's. I thought u r just one of them. Pl read my post in �good news for all you guys ..... job market is on the rise� and u 'll know what I mean. People who couldn't spell �University� were talking about English of H1B's
B.> If its not about hatred and you want it to be civilized discussion you should not post that link in completely irrelevant threads. Points you are trying to raise in fact don't even belong here least in thread named �Certified Developer (96%) with Oracle skills and a degree ... not even entry level?�. Your post there was completely out of context.
You should have started separate thread. I don't expect you to be civilized enough to accept that.
C.>Though I think this discussion should have separate thread. Let me be little accommodative here and answer your questions
YES, on most counts. But then its ur gov. ur industry ur laws. Sorry, I can only sympathize. I have my right to vote in India not in US. So I can only give you outsider's view on this.
Unfortunately for u; USA is capitalist economy. And it is very proud about that and they may be right or wrong in being proud capitalist. I saw some discussion about �American Workers�, �Unionization� etc. (Again in irrelevant thread.) Yes you can do that and dream about further steps like renaming �US of A� to �USSR of A�. I don't see it coming thru.
This is global economy and if US stops H1B these foreign workers will consider Canada, Japan, Germany as their options and economy of these countries will benefit. And if that option closes they will go back to their countries and start working there. Because no matter how much u guys try to deny, they have Skills. Countries like Taiwan are built by such reverse brain drain.
Countries like India, china will benefit a lot if US cancels H1B. But Indian and Chinese individual H1B workers will have lot to lose if that happens. On the contrary, US industry, economy and hence the nation will suffer if H1B is cancelled. But individual American tech workers will gain.
If u are under impression that industry will hire Americans at higher salary if H1B program is stopped then I think that's an illusion. They will start development centers in India, China and Israel and save money that way. This is the reality of global economy. Now I don't have solution. U want to keep economy open and and take all the benefits of that and then u don't want competition?? Today u r trying to say no to H1B's tomorrow u may try to force the industry to use �Made in America� software which will cost much higher than something made in India or china(That's what I mean by USSR of A)
Btw, Acronyms are part of signature file and I added that only because I saw other people using it. (also to stop people like Alex A from accusing that H1B's don't have proper education.) And they are hard earned by overcoming all sorts of difficulties. As a foreign student/worker one needs to be not just an edge but miles better than local competitor to achieve same results. Again ... read �good news ...� thread to see what I mean.
Thanks

------------------
-Shashank
MS(CS),BS(CS),SCJP2

Originally posted by herb slocomb:
[B]I think you've become a little too impressed with the acronyms after your name.
Technically, you should only list the MS(CS) rather than the MS(CS),BS(SC),SCJP - as its redundant - unless you'd done a BA or something else before as an undergrad but here looks it should be MS(CS),SCJP as the MS(CS) 'overrides' the BS(CS)...
This 'hatred' thing has got outta hand a bit after this WTC tragedy
All the best best Jim

Thankyou Shashank for addressing the issues and agreeing that the problems do exist. I found that URL link in this discussion area and re-posted it in several areas because it affects everything under the topic of Jobs Discussion. Many people are discouraged about not finding a job when they hear there is IT shortage and every company is looking for workers. They begin to feel the problem must be with them which is not neccessarily true as you admit.
That URL affects everything related to Jobs Discussion and everyone's future career prospects, and because it is so important that is why I posted it several times. It has NOTHING to do with hatred and I resent that implication. You know nothing about me, so don't jump to conclusions.

That URL affects everything related to Jobs Discussion and everyone's future career prospects, and because it is so important that is why I posted it several times. It has NOTHING to do with hatred and I resent that implication. You know nothing about me, so don't jump to conclusions.
Herb,
I am just wondering -
how come everyone is complaining about these issues only now when there were more H1B holders holding jobs in the US during the 'boom' time (about 2 years back) ?
There were no voices heard during that time ..... I wonder why !!
- Ashwin.

Originally posted by Jim Petersen:
Technically, you should only list the MS(CS) rather than the MS(CS),BS(SC),SCJP
This 'hatred' thing has got outta hand a bit after this WTC tragedy
All the best best Jim[/B]

Jim,
I personally don't think of these degrees much. There was talk of number of years of CS education among H1Bs. Pretending that only americans have 6 years of CS education and H1Bs have just year or two. Did u read the thread I pointed u to?
Quite a few people have lost jobs and not finding any (including me). And I dont fit into any group because I am not above 35, and am an H1B yet no job for 2 months. And I have so many friends with same background. So ur link does not explain ground reality.
If u do read that thread u 'll see that Hatred was there even before WTC. People just try to find some reason and find scapegoat in such situations.
Thanks
------------------
-Shashank
MS(CS),BS(CS),SCJP2

Originally posted by Jim Petersen:

Originally posted by herb slocomb:
This 'hatred' thing has got outta hand a bit after this WTC tragedy
All the best best Jim

Hatred for H1Bs due to WTC??? I don't get it
Is Osama Bin Laden an H1B?? What was his H1B category? �Skilled terrorist�?
May be you are right.

[This message has been edited by shashank bapat (edited September 14, 2001).]

I don't have any idea how long it takes to find a job these days, but the economy is off since the recent past when companies hired any well qualified people that came their way. Companies are cutting back, sometimes even if it means they don't hire people they really could use. In normal times, it is not unusual for it to take over well over two months to find a job, and, except for consumer spending, we have been in a recession. I don't know whether H1B status makes a difference, but I would think it makes it harder because of the sponsorship issues.
As for WTC being a problem, any place that doesn't hire someone because of that is a place neither you nor I would want to work anyway, I hope.