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H1B is dying

sonny kher
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 06, 2001
Posts: 83
well even though I am a non american citizen and at times felt that the anti H1B postings on this website have been bit too strong and lopsided the fact remains thats its a stupid program..its neither fair to the foreign techies nor is it fair to their american co-workers (not least bcz of the fact that they have to put up with these ppl who can't even speak english (sometimes) and were let into the door without anybody bothering to ask them how they felt).
Sure America is the land of oppurtunity and is (and should be) open to immigration I am sure there are better ways of doing it.
but i guess the industrial lobbies in the congress (they aren't called lobbies for nothing) are too strong for such logic to prevail..they want cheap labor and i guess they've been getting their way...but wait till you read this, maybe things are gonna change http://www.washtech.com/news/regulation/13558-1.html
-sonny


_ __________________ _ <br />RHCE<br />SCJP<br />??:-(
Rich Brockway
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 25, 2001
Posts: 34
The H1-B issue is a heated one. I find many companies are bringing in these workers to undercut the US workers.
I'll describe the situation where I work. Three of the four developers are H1-B workers. What are their "special and hard to find" skills? They know Oracle, ASP and HTML. Are these skills hard to find? Are they more talented than the American workers? Heck no to both. They are just there because they work for less money.
I really do not care if people like it or not. What if we imported cheap labor into some of these countries? How would the citizens react? I'll tell you now, they would not be happy. They would not welcome us with open arms.
Why don't we "claim" to have a shortage of firemen and policemen? I'm sure we could find people to work for less money. How would the firemen and policemen react?

Rich
Thomas Whalen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 26, 2001
Posts: 123
i understand what you are saying about how people would react. but, i don't really know what your stance is on this. i guess you summed up your stance by saying that you don't really care. perhaps if i knew your situation (job title, ethnic background) i could better understand your point of view. do you really think companies are hiring foreigners because they'll work for less money, OR do you think it is because they are afraid of discrimination charges?


if you don't know, then ask. if you do know, then share. love is knowledge.
Rich Brockway
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 25, 2001
Posts: 34
Why is my background an issue? In this case, the facts are the only things that matter. There never was a real programmer shortage.
Even when the economy was strong, US companies could have brought in more entry level workers. I have seen people who have attended nine month "technical training" programs for programming who cannot get jobs. When there was a "shortage" of programmers, why were these people overlooked? What about the individuals who graduated from the community colleges with two-year degrees in IS/CS/CIS? According to the "shortage" propaganda, each and every one got programming jobs. I highly doubt that was really the case. It would be hard to prove 100% of those people were actually employed.
Your point is taken about the discrimination issue. However, I do not see hiring H1-B workers as promoting ethnic diversity. If anything, it hurts. Instead of bringing in American minorities, they bring in foreigners.
In the case of the consulting companies, I think one of the main reasons they hire H1-B workers is because they will work cheaply. From my coworkers, who are H1-B workers, it sounds like they are indentured servants.
Rich
Thomas Whalen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 26, 2001
Posts: 123
sorry about that, i didn't mean to offend you, if i did. i am very frustrated. i'd say that most of my frustration is my own doing, not having the proof in the way of workable programs or vast knowledge to sell myself. still, i can't help but to be skeptical when the media says that there are many more jobs than programmers or that thousands and thousands of jobs are going unfilled. i just do not believe it to be true. how do they know? it seems every city i move to there is not much in the way of programming work. or, is it that i am getting this information from bad sources? i get a sickly feeling that everything is being hyped (tons of jobs, etc.) to hide us all from something.
[This message has been edited by Thomas Whalen (edited November 12, 2001).]
Rich Brockway
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 25, 2001
Posts: 34
Thomas,
I believe the "political lobbies" have done a brilliant job spreading the "programmer shortage" propaganda. Who exactly composes this group is another issue. It seems the people who benefit from this are the many IT consulting companies who bring in H1-B workers, larger businesses and the training and education sector. They all benefit from the "shortage."
The consulting companies and larger businesses can use this "shortage" excuse to import cheap labor. The "spirit" of the H1-B program is to bring in individuals with skills, which CANNOT be found in the USA. As I stated earlier, ALL of the H1-B workers I have worked with had NO unique skills. These positions should have been filled with American workers.
Finally, the training and education sector benefits because people want to be trained for a field where there are stable good paying jobs. I see advertisements all the time for the nine-month "programmer training" courses and various certifications. What if they were told the truth? What if they knew that well over one hundred thousand foreign workers were brought in last year to undercut the US workers? What if they knew there were hundreds of skilled and experienced developers out of work in their city? Would they be interested in getting "in line" behind the H1-B workers and the skilled and experienced developers for jobs? I do not think so. I think many Americans would be angry if they knew the truth concerning the "shortage" and the H1B issue.
Rich
Rich Brockway
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 25, 2001
Posts: 34
Originally posted by Thomas Whalen:
sorry about that, i didn't mean to offend you, if i did. i am very frustrated. i'd say that most of my frustration is my own doing, not having the proof in the way of workable programs or vast knowledge to sell myself.

Thomas,
You did not offend me in any way. I understand your frustration. In fact, it bothers me this situation exists for you and many others. It is proof there is no real "shortage."
I wish we could get the truth out there to all of the citizens. Let them decide for themselves if there is a "shortage." Given the basic fact thousands of experienced, certified and educated developers are out of work, it is easy to see the H1-B program should be revoked within a reasonable time frame (12 months). After all of the H1-Bs have returned to their countries, we will see if we really have enough workers. With all of the people looking for work, I do not see a problem filling those positions.
Rich
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
I have heard (sorry I don't have the links, ZDNet maybe?) that following 9/11, the H1B program may be re-evaluated, and in any event, employers may be more inclined to hire US citizens.
That being said, this is from a recent CNN article

For Norman Matloff, a computer science professor at the
University of California at Davis and a leading critic of the
H-1B program, the argument against the visas is more than
academic. Matloff said one student of his who graduated in
March with a solid B+ in computer science and engineering as
well as some industrial experience, a person with "all the right
things," still has not found a job.
"Employers are still hiring H-1Bs instead of him," said Matloff.

[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited November 13, 2001).]
Rich Brockway
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 25, 2001
Posts: 34
Jason,
The quote you posted says it all.
Rich
[This message has been edited by Rich Brockway (edited November 13, 2001).]
Rich Brockway
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 25, 2001
Posts: 34
All,
Check out Dr. Norman Matloff's Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage at the following:
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html
Rich
[This message has been edited by Rich Brockway (edited November 13, 2001).]
Debanjana Dasgupta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 11, 2000
Posts: 101
An interesting article:
Why America continues to need H1B s
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61159-2001Nov20.html
Thanks
Debanjana


Thanks<br /> <br />Debanjana<br /> <br />SCJP2<br />SCEA
M Prembroke
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 03, 2000
Posts: 56
The US needs H-1Bs for a few areas at the Ph.D level, but the fact that there are many Americans unemployed in the software field and desperate for work shows that there's no need for H-1Bs in that area.

Originally posted by Debanjana Dasgupta:
An interesting article:
Why America continues to need H1B s
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61159-2001Nov20.html
Thanks
Debanjana

Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
I will agree with you in so much as that we need the people the H1B visa was originally intended to apply to (certain types of engineers for example). However the H1B was not originally intended to apply to programmers. Programmers need a math background, not a science background, so that study, while disturbing, is irrelevant to the use of H1B's as programmers. There are separate tests for mathematical ability, the one the article talked about was specifically for the physical sciences (physics, biology, chemistry).
Last year, Congress raised the cap on visas granted to foreign workers to 195,000 from 115,000, largely to allow high-tech firms to fill jobs for which they could not find qualified Americans.


"There is something wrong when foreign workers are getting jobs in America because we failed to teach American graduates the skills," Paige said.

This is the part about people buying into the myth of a shortage espoused by the IT industry. Most H1B's these days are IT people. There is no shortage of qualified American IT people. There is a manufactured shortage because of how the industry is artificially determining who is qualified in order to get cheaper labor. Glancing through the job ads at any job site will demonstrate this.
Many job ads will list very specific pieces of software as "must haves". For example, a job ad might say something like "must have exeperience with Websphere". This is ridiculous. You may have all other qualifications, but you spent most of your time on the iPlanet app server. How difficult is it make the transition? They do this in order to give themselves more flexibility to say who is and who isn't qualified, in order to meet their agenda of hiring the cheapest labor. These exacting software experience requirements are beyond ludicrous and I am convinced they are used to help bolster the myth of the shortage. I can see not hiring Java programmer to fill a C++ position, those are different skill sets, but not hiring a Java programmer because he has used similar but differing software?!?!
In light of this, I wouldn't be surprised if the H1B body shops are either promoting flat out lying about their client's familiarity with pieces of software (such as app servers, IDE's, databases, etc...), or are providing training ahead of time. Most of us should know that there is little time required to become familiar with a piece of software, and justifying not hiring an American in favor of a non-Citizen because the American hasn't used exactly the same software as stated in the job requirements is a travesty beyond words, particularly when the real reason is financial.
sonny kher
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 06, 2001
Posts: 83
I am a CS Graduate student here in the US and most of the international students who get jobs have to apply for H1B visas as well. Saying that ALL H1B workers are bad or not any better than american workers is incorrect. A high percentage of students in the top graduate schools are of foreign origin, in the previous semesters I have seen a lot of top companies (which usually have the pick of the lot) hire some of these students. Infact, bigger companies like Microsoft, Sun and Oracle (also the biggest sponser of the H1B program) only care about the candidate skill set and your residential status in the US seldom is an issue with them. Smaller companies in most cases will require citizenship. And you wouldn't beleive the salaries some of these fresh out of school grads got.
When everything was good I didn't hear anyone complaing, but now that its rough seas everybody is up in arms. I was a summer intern at a company last year, and I often had this "he's not better than me" feeling, I guess thats what you guys are going through too. The fact of the matter is, american citizens have always been at an advantage, if anything else. I also have a few friends who after finishing their PhD programs and having accepted a job offer over a year ago, have had the offer taken back just because management does not want to sponser anybody for work visas anymore. I mean a PhD in Computer Engg from a top 10 school is a hard to find skillset, wouldn't you say?
Debanjana Dasgupta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 11, 2000
Posts: 101
I totally agree to Sonny's View.
Supporting Facts: http://www.h1bsponsors.com/Top100h1b.html
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Sonny,
I don't think anyone is saying anything negative about the H1B candidates themselves. The problem is not necessarily with the people filling the jobs, the problem is the program. The program is a farce and serves only to undercut the salaries of the American worker. In most circumstances, the American worker cannot compete financially with the foreign worker. This is no fault of either the foreign worker or of the American worker. The cost of an employee is more than just his salary. Long term benefits must be taken into account. This is where the disparity hits hardest.
The h1bsponsors link posted in the previous message shows that there are over 81,000 H1B's in this country. How many of them do you think are at the PhD level? I would expect relatively few. Of those 81k H1B's, how many do you expect are in the IT field, an area that was not originally covered by the intended purpose of the H1B program? I would expect the vast majority are IT people.
As I have stated before, it is not simply a question of the best person for the job. These companies thrive in large part due to our capitalist system. Because our laws so heavily favor big business, most of these companies reap larger profits here than they could anywhere else. I'm not saying they couldn't be profitable elsewhere, I am only saying that our system and laws are very advantageous to them. Enjoying the benefits of our society as they do, it is their responsibility to hire American workers when at all possible. I would even go further and say that it is their responsibility to help develope the American work force. Instead these companies have successfully lobbied for a program that benefits them financially, at the expense of the American people. They accomplish this by advertising unrealistic job requirements, and then telling the US Dept of Labor that they were unable to fill the position with a US citizen, enabling them to hire the cheaper labor from overseas.
I would think that the decision to hire comes down to a cost/qualification ratio. Since many H1B's are educated here anyway, it would be a safe assumption that the skill level of H1B workers and American workers is about the same. Therefore it is unrealistic to assume that these skills are not available domestically. So given that education and skills are roughly equal, qualifications are roughly equal. That makes the determing factor cost of labor, factoring in salary and benefits. I cannot point to them, but hasn't somebody here already posted a study showing slary for Americans is slightly higher than that of H1Bs? And didn't the Matloff paper claim the same thing? Factor in benefits over the term of employment, including possible retirement, and it is very hard for the American to compete with the H1B person.
There are only US persons where I work, we have little trouble finding qualified individuals, so that indicates there can't be that much of a shortage. H1Bs are not an option my employer is allowed. Possibly because of this, I see people come in with similar and compatible, but not exact matches for desired skills. These people quickly adapt and thrive. What this tells me is that there is no reason to hire a foreign person with a supposed exact skill match, when a US person with a similar and compatible skill set is available.
What would the work force of any nation think if that nation's industry continued to hire foreign labor while domestic labor was available? Well those are just my thoughts, but there is nothing you or I can do about the H1B program, so no reason for us to get too worked up over it. I really don't think anybody blames the H1B workers too much, rather it is our government's and industries fault. I personally have less of a heartache if the H1B is trying to become a US citizen, which I know is true in many cases, rather than just taking the money and heading back to their own country.
Daniel Dunleavy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2001
Posts: 276
As I stated in posts before, I am aware of the use of H1-B people being used to reduce budgets in new hires and replacements. In a number of cases a large number of EXPERIENCED workers who were ALREADY WORKING for the company were replaced by cheaper H1-B people. These workers already had the experience in the technologies required and, in fact, had to train their replacements.
It really is a basic business decision to reduce costs. All the media hype is created to enable them to implement the decision. So in comes down to whether you believe in a global economy/workforce, or that one's fellow countrymen come first.
Recent events may impact the dynamics in the short run, but I believe that the govt/big business objectives are unchanged and the long term replacement of higher paid technical people will continue.
Dan
sonny kher
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 06, 2001
Posts: 83
what? there is no way I am working for less than the market rate, I don't care if the company sponsers me or not. After all the tuition I have paid here, I need to make it back. I agree with Jason where he says that domestic workers cannot work with imported H1B's, but not because of the reasons you put forth (I beleive even as an H1 you pay the exact same taxes as an american worker) the disparity is where an american will have so much debt from school that it takes em atleast 2-3 years to get all that (high interest) debt washed off. I know, I have a lot of american friends who cannot even think of graduate school (even though they want to) because of all the tuition and credit card loans they have from school.
-sonny
Mulan Gupta
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 23, 2001
Posts: 4
I was part of the H1-B program and consider it a great injustice to the people of my country as well as others. Big business is using it to their advantage and it should be curtailed if not eliminated.
Companies use it for cheap labor and they also use it as a means of control... threatening their workers of terminating their sponsorship if they don't work 15-20 hour days.
And when their is a rif, who is the first to go? The American worker. They always seem to manage to keep the H1-B people around so they can take advantage of them.
This is also apparent by the jobs many H1-B workers fill. They are supposed to have some valuable skill set, yet the company moves them to a management roll. Then, as a manager, with the control to hire/fire/discipline, there is blatant discrimination going on against the American worker. I have seen it first hand and was very ashamed of what some of my people would lower themselves to. Many a sidebar was overheard in our native language criticizing the Americans.
Jim Baiter
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 05, 2001
Posts: 532
One thing I fail to understand is that they never attempt to negotiate with those being riffed. They just dump them and hire cheaper. Many would opt for salary reductions to stay.
Originally posted by Daniel Dunleavy:
As I stated in posts before, I am aware of the use of H1-B people being used to reduce budgets in new hires and replacements. In a number of cases a large number of EXPERIENCED workers who were ALREADY WORKING for the company were replaced by cheaper H1-B people. These workers already had the experience in the technologies required and, in fact, had to train their replacements.
Dan

Lance Anderson
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 01, 2000
Posts: 18
I thought I�d interject that anyone who is paying H1-Bs less is doing so in violation of federal law. When requesting and H1 visa for an applicant the employer must attest that he has made a good faith effort to fill the position with a domestic worker and is paying the H1 no less than a domestic worker with similar skills. And the IRS does audit employers on this. Are there abuses? I�m sure there are, but most of us live in such fear of any kind of government audit that we sure wouldn�t risk the six-figure fines to save a few bucks on payroll. Besides the INS is by far the most difficult government agency to deal with.
I wonder where all these highly skilled domestic programmers have been hiding? I�ve hired over 100 IT workers in three years and had to steal just about everyone of them from some other company, and pay five-figure placement fees to do so. What I often found was that many well-qualified domestic candidates were unwilling to relo while foreign nationals would jump at the chance. That probably explains why some companies ended up with so many. In my case, my company�s federal technology license limits me to hiring US Citizens or Permanent Residents in most IT positions, so it�s never been an option. Of course 2001 has been a different ball game, an employer is going to be hard pressed to establish that he can�t find a domestic worker with the needed skills.
Mike Sullivan
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 01, 2001
Posts: 21
Offlate, I am noticing a trend in the job ads.
They specifically ask for Citizens/green card folks.
Ofcourse its a different issue that most of these ads are fictitious.
Daniel Dunleavy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2001
Posts: 276
Lance,
Businesses are not afraid of the gov't...look at M$. At best the gov't usually fines these companies ... once the gov't fined M$ and had to pay $100,000. I bet the secretary took the money out of petty cash. The bottom lines drives all their decisions. Morals/Ethics/Laws are way down on the list.
Once I got a job in a company in the US who's headquarters was in another country. In the code of the payroll system, their were branches....if ( nationality of Headquarters)...do this bonus logic, if not...do another bonus logic. How fair is that?
I believe that companies easily skirt the H1B issue by using a unique laundry list of skills which on fit a certain candidate, or post the job with low pay. Most US workers will not apply to the low paying job, so the company can say it tried but had to hire an H1B because he was the only guy who showed up.
Dan
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Lance Anderson:
I thought I�d interject that anyone who is paying H1-Bs less is doing so in violation of federal law.

But if the job position carries say a salary range of $40,000-$65,000, "depending on skills and experience", meaning negotiation skills, which end of a salary range do you think the average H1B will be hired at as opposed to the average American, given supposedly equal skills and experience. Hiring the H1Bs at the low end and Americans at the higher end shouldn't be a problem as far as the government is concerned. Also, a company can hedge its bets with a H1B, because they will not stick around long enough to collect long term benefits.
sonny kher
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 06, 2001
Posts: 83
what are you guys talking about. There is no conspiracy theory. Remember: Companies don't hire people, People hire people. When things were great kids were being picked straight out of high school, now that its not so hunky dory even a Masters degree won't cut it for you.
Mulan Gupta
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 23, 2001
Posts: 4
Originally posted by Lance Anderson:
And the IRS does audit employers on this. Are there abuses? I�m sure there are, but most of us live in such fear of any kind of government audit that we sure wouldn�t risk the six-figure fines to save a few bucks on payroll. Besides the INS is by far the most difficult government agency to deal with.

Surely you jest...
Big business gets special treatment from the government via bribes and lobbying. The only businesses getting fined are the ones that have pissed somebody off in gov't.
Ian Yang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 44
Rich,
1. H1B policy is just a policy that allows companys to hire foreigners. The INS requires the company to search for a certain amount of time (usually ten business days) from applicants before it can choose a foreigner. So, it is not necessary to see your H1B coworkers have any exceptional superman skills. As long as no better native American people apply for the same position within ten business days. as for whether some company didn't really follow this rule, it is hard to tell. we don't know.
2. H1B policy does require the company pay at the same rate as they are supposed to pay a US worker. Now, whether the companies
really do that, it is hard to tell.
If we block the H1B policy simply because some companies don't strictly follow the rule, then what policy can we keep ? Any polic may be taken advantage of by some party. For example, certain wines can't be sold to people under certain age but some stores do violoate this rule, and cause some problem for some people/family, what can we do ? we can just take away their license but we can't close other stores. So, if you find your company is illegally manipulating the H1B policy, you can gather some evidence and sue them.
For myself, I got my MS degree in CS two years ago in USA and I have been working in IT since then. I am holding H1 visa and my salary is about $70k. I don't think my company treats me as a cheap labor.
Meanwhile, economy is just self-adjusting, right now almost no company is hiring any H1B worker. The reason why many people lose jobs is because economy is slowing down significantly, this has to do with lot of factors, even including 911 attacks according to official economy department. H1B workers are not responsible for the recession. Now, if you are still upset with the fact that some H1B workers took some positions before the recession, then what can I say ? man, you may have to find a way to calm down yourself, otherwise you will just end up with upseting yourself everyday.
William Barnes
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 16, 2001
Posts: 986


you may have to find a way to calm down yourself, otherwise you will just end up with upseting yourself everyday.

Who knows, some people may like upsetting themselfs?


Please ignore post, I have no idea what I am talking about.
Daniel Dunleavy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2001
Posts: 276
A few companies violating the law is different than the Gov't helping to create the problems. The gov't was raising the limits on the visas when there was no real shortage or programmers. My previous comments on american workers being replaced by off-shore people was happening before the turn around in the economy in the last year.
Dan
Rich Brockway
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 25, 2001
Posts: 34
Originally posted by Ian Yang:
Rich,
1. H1B policy is just a policy that allows companys to hire foreigners. The INS requires the company to search for a certain amount of time (usually ten business days) from applicants before it can choose a foreigner. So, it is not necessary to see your H1B coworkers have any exceptional superman skills. As long as no better native American people apply for the same position within ten business days. as for whether some company didn't really follow this rule, it is hard to tell. we don't know.
2. H1B policy does require the company pay at the same rate as they are supposed to pay a US worker. Now, whether the companies
really do that, it is hard to tell.
If we block the H1B policy simply because some companies don't strictly follow the rule, then what policy can we keep ? Any polic may be taken advantage of by some party. For example, certain wines can't be sold to people under certain age but some stores do violoate this rule, and cause some problem for some people/family, what can we do ? we can just take away their license but we can't close other stores. So, if you find your company is illegally manipulating the H1B policy, you can gather some evidence and sue them.

There is a huge disparity between the intent of the law and how the companies are manipulating it. If you actually read the H1-B legislation, it is intended to bring in individuals with unique hard to find skills. It is not intended to bring in the garden-variety technical school graduate (http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html#tth_sEc9.6). Oracle, ASP and HTML are not skill sets that are hard to find. In the end, as Norman Matloff stated, there are enough skilled workers here. However, there are not enough cheap skilled workers here.
As for suing anyone, it is a fruitless endeavor. Unless I was fired and an H1-B took my place, I do not see how I could file a complaint. The truth is it has happened to several people.
As for "upsetting myself everyday," that is hardly the case. I see this as an injustice to many people in this country. This is one of the most blatant cases of corporate greed and political corruption. It is a manufactured "crisis" to line the pockets of immigration attorneys, consulting companies and corporations. I guess some people place value on honesty and integrity in business and politics. Yet, others do not.
Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Brockway (edited December 10, 2001).]
Rich Brockway
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 25, 2001
Posts: 34
Originally posted by Debanjana Dasgupta:
An interesting article:
Why America continues to need H1B s
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61159-2001Nov20.html
Thanks
Debanjana

Dr. Norman Matloff clearly summarizes the situation in "The Role of Mathematics Education."
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html#tth_sEc6.3.2
He correctly states, "the vast majority of high-tech H-1Bs are programmers, not engineers, and programming does not use math." So, I would also add science to that list. What percentage of programmers actually uses science? It is a fraction of the jobs. How many of the H1-Bs have degrees in science and computer science? More important, can those jobs be filled with American workers? The answer is "YES!" Hence, we do not need any H1-Bs.
Rich

Rich Brockway
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 25, 2001
Posts: 34
Originally posted by Daniel Dunleavy:
Lance,
I believe that companies easily skirt the H1B issue by using a unique laundry list of skills which on fit a certain candidate, or post the job with low pay. Most US workers will not apply to the low paying job, so the company can say it tried but had to hire an H1B because he was the only guy who showed up.
Dan

Dan,
Here is an interesting excerpt from Dr. Norman Matloff's web site:
"H-1B law requires the employer to pay the foreign worker the ``prevailing wage,'' which industry lobbyists have cited as ``proof'' that the H-1Bs are not exploited. But this law is riddled with loopholes.
Even if an H-1B employer pays a prevailing wage determined by a government survey, that wage will usually be lower than the market rate for the job's skill requirement, as follows. As explained earlier, the only programmers who are enjoying large increases in salary as those with ``hot'' skills, say Java. H-1Bs are brought to this country ostensibly for those skills. Yet an employer need only pay the prevailing wage for programmers in general, rather than the prevailing wage for, say, Java programmers. Thus the employer gets a Java programmer for the price of a generic programmer - all while technically complying with the prevailing-wage requirement of the law."
From the following:
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html#tth_sEc9.2.5
Rich
Kirk Pepperdine
Author
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 17, 2001
Posts: 71
Originally posted by Rich Brockway:
Why is my background an issue? In this case, the facts are the only things that matter. There never was a real programmer shortage.
Even when the economy was strong, US companies could have brought in more entry level workers. I have seen people who have attended nine month "technical training" programs for programming who cannot get jobs. When there was a "shortage" of programmers, why were these people overlooked? What about the individuals who graduated from the community colleges with two-year degrees in IS/CS/CIS? According to the "shortage" propaganda, each and every one got programming jobs. I highly doubt that was really the case. It would be hard to prove 100% of those people were actually employed.
Your point is taken about the discrimination issue. However, I do not see hiring H1-B workers as promoting ethnic diversity. If anything, it hurts. Instead of bringing in American minorities, they bring in foreigners.
In the case of the consulting companies, I think one of the main reasons they hire H1-B workers is because they will work cheaply.
I work as an H1B and make much more than the stated averages. I was not an endentured survant. I also provided value that you cannot get out of a 9 month devry training program. Suggesting that there was not a shortage of IT people runs against what many recruiters and employers are still saying. Having said this, the H1B program is full of problems. For a goverment that claims to be family first, it comes as a surprise that H1B treats family members as unwanted bagage.
Rich


Author of <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672324261/ref=jranch-20" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Ant Developer's Handbook</a>
Rich Brockway
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Joined: Oct 25, 2001
Posts: 34
Originally posted by Kirk Pepperdine:
Suggesting that there was not a shortage of IT people runs against what many recruiters and employers are still saying.

Kirk,
If you take the time to read Dr. Norman Matloff's excellent research, you will clearly see there is no shortage. If there is a shortage, why are there so many experienced and certified Java programmers out of work? Why are so many people who post on this board discouraged? Why are so many graduates of Computer Science and computer training programs unemployed or underemployed? Why were there only four jobs offered on Java Ranch in the last 30 days? According to the "shortage" propaganda, there should be several postings each day on this international web site.
You must free yourself to look at the hard statistics. If you choose to believe their propaganda, it is up to you. Given your situation, I think you want to believe it.

Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Brockway (edited December 11, 2001).]
Rich Brockway
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 25, 2001
Posts: 34
Originally posted by Kirk Pepperdine:
Having said this, the H1B program is full of problems. For a goverment that claims to be family first, it comes as a surprise that H1B treats family members as unwanted bagage.

Kirk,
This government does not put family first. The first concern, for the politicians, is always money. Make no mistake. That is why the garbage from the ITAA gets any time.
As for H1-B treating the families as baggage, the program is supposed to bring a worker in to help out a company for a short period. It should not involve family members. It should not be bringing anyone here to live permanently. That is yet another problem.
Yes, leaving family members behind is tough. Due to their work, many US citizens are forced to be away from their families. However, one needs to decide which is more important employment or family. The H1-Bs should be expected to make the same decision.
Rich
Rich Brockway
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 25, 2001
Posts: 34
This link was posted on another JavaRanch board by M Prembroke. It gives additional proof there is no "shortage" or a need for any H1-Bs.
http://www.informationweek.com/story/IWK20011213S0024
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IT Jobless Rate Hits 5.5% In November Dec. 13, 2001

The unemployment rate is the highest in memory. The IT labor force contracted in November to 2.78 million, from 2.94 million workers in October. The number of jobless IT workers rose to nearly 154,000 last month, from 147,000 in October.
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Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Brockway (edited December 16, 2001).]
sonny kher
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 06, 2001
Posts: 83
yeah right, how about i give you a dozen links that say there are hundreds of thousands of unfilled position in IT? ofcourse they will be pre-2001. times change my friend and soon enough they will change again.
Rich Brockway
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 25, 2001
Posts: 34
Originally posted by sonny kher:
yeah right, how about i give you a dozen links that say there are hundreds of thousands of unfilled position in IT? ofcourse they will be pre-2001. times change my friend and soon enough they will change again.

Sonny,
If these "job openings" are real, why are there so many unemployed or underemployed people? Why do you insist on sticking up for "big business" and the ITTA? Do you really believe there are that many actual positions paying the "prevailing" wage for the required skill set?
Again, I will point to the facts. In the last thirty days, there have been four jobs offered on JavaRanch's "Jobs Offered" board. Why are so many people who post on this board discouraged? Why are so many graduates of Computer Science and computer training programs unemployed or underemployed?
I'm challenging you to bring forth the "mythical" 425,000 openings. First, I will draft a contract which will pay me a finder's fee for each qualified applicant. Second, we will have each company sign the contract and agree to pay the prevailing wage for the given skill set and location. Third, I will simply post the jobs on Dice and watch the resumes fly in. Unless they are looking for a seven foot four inch three hundred pound jockey, it is that easy.
However, if they are looking for a unique skill set, they must be willing to pay. If they are, they will find people to fill the positions. If not, they will claim they "cannot fill" this position. What they are really saying is we are not willing to pay for the skill set this position requires.
If you really believe there is a shortage, you need to consider a different career path. Find people to fill those positions. Even if you fill 1/425 of the "positions" at a mere $100 a piece each year, that is a nice living.
What I�m seeing, in my "high tech" city, is the direct opposite. The high tech consulting and placement agencies are drying out. I�ve had several recruiters call me to dig up sales leads. Of course, I�m not very helpful.
Rich
[This message has been edited by Rich Brockway (edited December 17, 2001).]
Daniel Dunleavy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2001
Posts: 276

Article which proves my point about how businesses follow the law:
link
Dan
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: H1B is dying