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Tight Job market

Tony Yan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 10, 2002
Posts: 170
Hi, All:
I am first time message poster but certainly not first time reader at javaranch. I love this site since most of people here are very professional and technically sound. I have been recently out of job after 1.5 years of JSP/J2EE development, my tiny consulting company has been driven into almost no work to do. After a month of job search, I am so surprised how tight this job market is even in NYC metro area. Almost two years ago I passed SCJP2 and easily ( I mean in 10 days) got a great offer from the company after two interviews without too much real world java coding. Now with one more cert. SCWCD and about 2 years of experience, I haven't got a meaningful interview so far (well, just a bunch of headhunters). I am kinda of surprised since I don't have work authorization problem either.
Ok, what I am doing wrong besides the job market? I think I can reenforce my resume to make it more aggressive - but I am the type of person don't want to get embarrassed at an interview. I am working on the IBM XML exam right now and should get it done in a few weeks. I am also looking into .Net stuff & cert. In this May I will be getting my MS in CS.
ANY SUGGESTIONS AND IDEAS AND CLUES WILL BE HIGHLY APPRECIATED!


Tony Yan<br /> <br />IBM Certified Developer XML and Related Technology<br />Sun Certified Web Component Developer For J2EE Platform<br />Sun Certified Programmer For Java 2 Platform
Carlisia
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 19, 2001
Posts: 2
Tony,
One suggestion: Because of your foreign name, mention on your cover letter or at least on your resume that you are allowed to work in the US.


--Carlisia
Tony Yan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 10, 2002
Posts: 170
Carlisia:
Thanks for the suggestion. Usually, I tell them this when they ask. But I will put this in my resume.
Christophe Lee
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 142
Ok, I'm back on my soap box, but this type of thing really irritates me (we all got one of those!), so here goes:
Tony Yan is NOT (or should not) be a foreign name!
There is nothing foreign about the name Tony. The lead character on "Who's the Boss" was named Tony. It is as American as spaghetti.
Therefore, I assume you think Yan is a foreign name. But, since it is his last name, there are many Asian Americans named Yan. There were Japanese Americans who fought in World War II (for the US!) named Yan.
Therefore, I assume you just think Asian Americans are foreign. Well, as an Asian American myself, I encounter this attitude all the time.
I think as Americans, we should all know the difference between an international Asian, and an Asian American. I know it's hard to tell, but don't simply jump to conclusions about government allegiances, social behavoirs and so forth. Asian Americans are as American as fortune cookies (which was created in San Francisco).
Thanks,
Chris
Carlisia Campos
sanitation engineer
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 22, 2001
Posts: 135
Originally posted by Christophe Lee:

Therefore, I assume you think Yan is a foreign name. But, since it is his last name, there are many Asian Americans named Yan. There were Japanese Americans who fought in World War II (for the US!) named Yan.
Thanks,
Chris

As you pointed out yourself, the name Yan might be of Asian descent. That I think Yan is of foreign descent is correct. You just justified my thinking.
That I just think any with a foreign name is a foreign of the US is ridiculous and cannot be inferred by my post; for you to do so is 'very' prejudicial.
Given this last name, Tony might be Asian, or so a recruiter 'might' think. My tip was so he'd avoid being put on a resume pile of candidates seeking visa sponsorship.
[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: Carlisia Campos ]

Carlisia Campos<br />--------------------------------<br />i blog here: carlisia.com
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
"Carlisia",
PROPER NAMES ARE NOW REQUIRED
Please look carefully at official naming policy at javaranch & reregister yourself with proper first & last name, with a space between them. Please adhere to official naming policy & help maintain the decorum of the forum. The naming policy can be found at http://www.javaranch.com/name.jsp
Topics posted by people with invalid names will be closed. Please register with a new name and this topic will be reopened.

--Mark
Christophe Lee
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 142
Originally posted by Carlisia Campos:
As you pointed out yourself, the name Yan might be of Asian descent. That I think Yan is of foreign descent is correct. You just justified my thinking.

I don't mean to start flaming and my post, though is in reply to yours, is not meant to be directed strictly at you personally.
However, my point was that "Asian" does not immediately mean "foreign". There are many Asian Americans who has the last name Yan. There are many Asian Americans who have never been outside of America. These people are not foreign.
Though I don't blame you for your remarks, I do hope you now realize the difference between "Asian" and "foreign".
Maybe I'm making this too big of a deal. For that, I apologize.
Chris
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Christophe Lee:
Ok, I'm back on my soap box, but this type of thing really irritates me (we all got one of those!), so here goes:

Chris, I have to agree with Carlisia. She's wasn't stereotyping, but suspected that others may. The fact is there are people who will make that assumption.
Right now openings get hit with hundreds of applications. Your job as a candidate is to make it as easy as possible to them to be interested in you. If they have questions or doubts, they are less likely to persue you.
You can stand on a high horse and say that's not appropriate. You can say you don't want to work for comapnies like that. (I, btw, have stood on such horses and have not gotten jobs because of it.) Carlisia objectively pointed out an issue and some options. You input is another valid view and proposed course of action (although I think you assumed too much about Carlisia's personal thoughts). It is up to Tony to decide what he feels comfortable with.

--Mark
Tony Yan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 10, 2002
Posts: 170
I am surprised there are so many responses on the subject of my name. I totally agree that my name is not a foreign name at all, even though I am a long time immigrant to US. I think it is fair to say that there are no foreign name in this country because you CANNOT figure out the legal status of a person by names. To some extreme, I bet there are many people who were born here with names sounds "foreign" due to, say, religious or family reasons.
In any event, I'd recommend people who have " hard to pronounce" names get themselves some sort of "English" names. Some of my friends have first names like Qi***, which is obviously quite difficult for English speaking employers to pronounce. It is just a recommendation.
Regards,
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Tony Yan:
I think it is fair to say that there are no foreign name in this country because you CANNOT figure out the legal status of a person by names. To some extreme, I bet there are many people who were born here with names sounds "foreign" due to, say, religious or family reasons.

Well, you can make probabilistic estimates. Yes, you cannot tell for certain. The fact is immigration tends to come in waves. The Irish came in the lat 19th century. Eastern Europeans in the early 20th. Chinese came in the 1860's and 1870's and again in the last 30 years. The reasons for this has to do with world events, as well as changes in US immigration policies.
We see similarities at a microscopic scale, too. In the last 5-8 years there were a large number of H1B visa's given to Asian workers, primarily Indian and Chinese. The point is there will be some HR folks who may assume, when rummaging through the huundreds of emails they get, that Asian names are more likely to be H1B's and therefore less worth spending time investigating.
Tony may not even be Asian, I don't know. Yan is an Asian name, but it could also be a changed or shortened name from many other countries.
--Mark

PS I'm descended from Eastern European immigrants who arrived just after the turn of the century. Thank you America. :-)
Carlisia Campos
sanitation engineer
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 22, 2001
Posts: 135
I think given the history you could say that all people in the US, American or not, have names of foreign descent. In turn, they can all be considered American names. Any one should be free to take either vew. With time as we see more of a name we start thinking of it as more American. If someone thinks of, say, your name as of foreign descent, that does not automatically imply the person is thinking of you as a foreign though.
For example, you can think of my name as American if you want, but you cannot ever deny that it is of Portuguese descent. If you think of me as American or not, I couldn't care less. If you think that I could not be an American, then I'd have a problem with your reasoning.
For people with names from origins where English is not the first language and that are authorized to work here (permanent residents and citizens) can benefit from making that explicit in their job application.
Eliza Tworkowska
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 24, 2001
Posts: 8
Well, try pronouncing my last name ;-).
Talking about "tight job market" in NYC area - can somebody please post a success story ? Landing that dream job recently thanks to hard work and persistance ? I really need some encouragement...
SJ Adnams
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 28, 2001
Posts: 925
Eliza,
The job market here is very tight here in the UK too
Persistance and hard work is not enough, you need a good deal of luck too....
Back on topic - I consider myself to have a 'non-foreign' name, have got 'British Citizen' on my CV and still get asked if I need a work permit :/ I don't think anyone should feel singled out because of their name, it's just the agents going thru their checklists.
Simon
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Actually, the topic isn't forgein sounding names (we just got sidetracked), it's about tight jobs markets (or lack thereof), and any advice we might have for finding jobs.
--Mark

(I just don't want everyone thinking this thread is about names. :-)
Christophe Lee
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 142
Ok, I understand your advice: if you run the risk of being stereotyped (ie, have a non-traditionally American name), then indicate explicitly that you are authorized to work.
That's fine.
But the phrase "foreign sounding" can easily be extended to "foreign looking". And "foreign looking" can easily to extended to "non-American" and that can easily lead to hate and racism.
Now, we here are all very intelligent folks at Javaranch. I'm not worried about any of you (most of you, anyway) being racist or hateful. But there are a lot of ignorant people out there that take other people's interpretations, twist them, and then hurt others with it. They are armed with a slice of knowledge and that's all they need to wage a hate war.
For example, if you go around saying "Asian sounding names sound foreign." From a recruiting standpoint, that is fine. What's dangerous is that someone not so bright might hear that and think "yea, Asian names ARE foreign....that kinda makes Asians foreign....looky that kid over there! He's Asian! He's foreign, he's taking our jobs! Let's beat him!"
Ok, my illustration is extremely immature. But you get the idea. I just want to instill in everyone that "Asian sounding names are NOT foreign". People's ideologies might be, but not names or faces or foods....simply because America is so diverse; you just can't tell.
Ok, this is my last post on this subject, I swear....at least in this topic.
Chris
JiaPei Jen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 19, 2000
Posts: 1309
Chris, your point is well taken. I personally would like to express something similar to what you have said. However, I would start a thread at another JavaRanch forum to get more attention about the problem if I were you. Although the subject often gets changed while discussions heat up, this thread is about "tight job market" and this is the "job discussion" forum. Or, Moderator Mark, could you help moving this particular part of the discussion to another forum? Thanks.
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by JiaPei Jen:
However, I would start a thread at another JavaRanch forum to get more attention about the problem if I were you...Or, Moderator Mark, could you help moving this particular part of the discussion to another forum? Thanks.

Well, this is Tony's thread. I'm not going to move it without his say so. I't sporbably easiest to keep this thread here and have people continue to post as "Tight Job market".
If you'd like to start a new thread, the most appropriate forum is Meanless Drivel (not that it's meaningless, it just doesn't fit elsewhere).

--Mark
William Barnes
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 16, 2001
Posts: 986

Well, try pronouncing my last name ;-).

war-cow-ski?


Please ignore post, I have no idea what I am talking about.
Tony Yan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 10, 2002
Posts: 170
Mark:
I agree that we move this branch-threaded topic to meaningless.
Thanks
Mariusz Szurnacki
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 12, 2001
Posts: 44
Originally posted by William Barnes:

war-cow-ski?

Hi!!!
I think that Eliza will not be very satisfied when she will see this "cow" in the middle ;-)
And for me, "Tworkowska" is rather Polish surname, am I right Eliza?
Regards,
Mariusz Szurnacki


<BR>
Eliza Tworkowska
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 24, 2001
Posts: 8
Hey guys,
Yes, Mariusz, this is a Polish lastname - this was not very hard to guess for you, was it ;-).
William, as far as how to pronounce it - my last name sounds as if it was written 'TVORCOVSKA'.
And if we are analyzing it - check this out:
T-WORK-OWSKA.
See, it has 'work' in it - doesn't it make me look really dedicated ??? :-)
One last thing that has to do with foreign last names and job applications - I do have a friend that used to work at an HR department at a major telecommunication company, who openly admitted that out of many job applications she has received, she automatically disqualified those candidates with name that she could not pronounce - it made her job 'easier'..... How unfair.
Mariusz Szurnacki
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 12, 2001
Posts: 44
Hi!!!
1. Yes, it was quite easy to guess for me, cos I'm Polish ;-)
2. This case you told us is really unfair.
I heard a joke which is very similar to it, but I was thinking that such things don't take place in real life...
Here is this joke:
A young worker in HR department brought several applications to his boss. Their job was to take interviews with all these people. The boss took half of them and put them into a litter busket (a dumpster). The young worker asked him why he had done this. The boss answered:
"Listen, young man, we don't need here people who have a bad luck, you know?".

Regards,
MAriusz
 
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