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How bad is the Java market in US?

Jim Baker
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 10, 2002
Posts: 177
Does anyone know how bad the Java job market
in US? Can it become worse? Or it will stay
like this forever?
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
The Java market is fairly strong, when compared to the historical average. It should be geeting better, but that's just my opinion. Check
There was a large discussion about this a few months back at
http://www.coderanch.com/t/27230/Jobs/careers/Thousands-Java-Jobs-Available

--Mark
Jim Baker
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 10, 2002
Posts: 177
Thanks for the link.
Which part of the US are you in? I know market
at TX is very bad. The number of ad on internet does not count because multi-posting and fake ones.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
The DC market seems pretty good, as long as you are at least a US citizen. The adds seem mostly real as well. Check out The Washington Post's job page and do a search on Java. I did a search restricting it to Maryland and got back something like 176 jobs, and all the ones I saw looked legitimate. Even the requirements didn't look too outlandish in most cases. There were even some where a degree was not necessarily required. There would have been many more results returned I'm sure if I had expanded to cover Virginia and DC.
However US citizenship is required for the vast majority of them, some require the ability to get a government clearance (I guess that means no criminal record, no mental problems, or no serious financial issues?), and some require a current government clearance (w/ polygraph often). But if you fit into that category then your job prospects look good.
[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
frank davis
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 1479
I've had no luck landing a Java job since I became certified a year ago. I have plenty of experience in IT, just not in Java. I've also been looking for jobs in my area of expertise which is AS/400 programming and today I got a really fascinating reply from a headhunter who said my resume was impressive and met the many different requirements of the client. However, the client said I job hoopped too much since my last 2 positions lasted about 18 months, my current position 2 years, and the other job 3 years. Is that really job hopping or are these people just being insane in their requirements of looking for 15 different skill sets that you can only get by changing jobs every so often??
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
If you were a contractor that would be the norm so I don't see what the issue is. I mean contractors sometimes only stay employed for the duration of a given contract, but that's the nature of the beast.
I would think a non-contractor who stays with one company for a decent amount of time wouldn't necessarily have the same opportunities to possess a large skill set. I can understand a company wanting an employee to average at least 3 years / job, but there are many legitimate circumstances why that isn't always possible.
Lara Martin
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 06, 2002
Posts: 23
If you are a contractor(Must change job every six months), then you defenitively will have 15-20 skills.I started the Contract job in the year of 2000, worked in 6 J2EE projects.All are different environment and nature.
Java market is good.But you need atleast 12 skills to get a good job.I can categorize the skill set here.
1.Core Java(J2SE)
2.J2EE(EJB,JSP,Servlets, JDBC and XML)
3.Web servers-Apache,Tomcat,Netscape
4.Application servers-WebLogic, WebSphere
5.Databases-Oracle,DB2,SQLServer
6.Testing tools - jUnit, jProbe, Empirix
Enough.I am sure, you will get a very good Job.
Thanks
Lara
John Held
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 13, 2002
Posts: 13
Does anyone know how the market is in California for Java programmers?

Austen Texas? Seattle? Portland?


John Held
Jim Baker
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 10, 2002
Posts: 177
Lara:
Where are you located? Do you know the current rate for a contract (SCEA/SCWCD/SCJA/SCJD/SCJP) with the 5-6 years Java?
JavaPro had an article said that this year's
rate is better than last year's.
But I did not see it. Thanks.
Donald Nunn
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 11, 2000
Posts: 200
Herb, don't worry. You might want to re-think your strategy. Since your Java certified you may want to focus on mixing Java and RPG/ILE, since you have so many years on the iSeries/400. I really think that's where the RPG programmer who has developed Java skills may win out. Don't focus on just Java because there are tons of Java developers out there. The iSeries shops that are really progressive will be looking for developers that are experienced in building hybrid applications. As I'm sure your aware IBM has done a tremendous job bringing ILE up to speed where it can compete with the other languages and using Java to replace those horrible green screens including encapsulating your business rules in service programs (packages) may give you an edge.
Just food for thought.
Regards,
[ June 15, 2002: Message edited by: Donald Nunn ]

<b>Donald Nunn</b><br />Sun Certified Programmer for the Java 2 Platform
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by herb slocomb:
However, the client said I job hoopped too much since my last 2 positions lasted about 18 months, my current position 2 years, and the other job 3 years. Is that really job hopping or are these people just being insane in their requirements of looking for 15 different skill sets that you can only get by changing jobs every so often??

That's one of the first things I look at when I see a resume, but I always ask, "why did you leave this job?" If the company folded, you can't really be blamed, can you? If I were you, and you weren't job hopping for more money or some similarly vain reason, I'd contact the head hunter and explain why you changed jobs, and have him mention that to the company. (Also remeber, I call and check references, as do many others, so always be truthful.)

--Mark
Roseanne Zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 14, 2000
Posts: 1953
Job hopper and changing job reasonablely well are everyone's own judgement. I remember a discussion in a large JUG mailing list on the booming time, someone's comment was if you stay too long (according to him, >2 years) on one job, then you are somewhat incompetent.
Now, it is not booming time anymore. Someone stays in one company more than 4-5 years are having a very very safe position if the company doing well. It will stay that way until the 20, 30, 50, 100% lay-off. A person in a large telecom for about 15 years and had a manager's position got laid-off. Nowhere will hire him since his knowledge base are so ***-specific. He is now driving a cab, not bad!!!
His knowledge base is certainly enlarged
[ June 15, 2002: Message edited by: Roseanne Zhang ]
Lara Martin
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 06, 2002
Posts: 23
Jim,
I am located in Schenectady, NewYork.
5-6 years of Java experience with certification, you can negotiate hourly rate between $60 - $80.But it depends upon the place and company where you are looking for the Job.
Please ask if you have any questions.
Thanks
Lara
Shura Balaganov
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 22, 2002
Posts: 664
Wow, good stuff, people.
I have 7 years of IT, only about 1.5 years of Java, although 3-4 years of Microsoft to contrast this. Both Java and Microsoft certified. Unemployed for 9 months. In last month alone I sent out 10-20 resumes A WEEK TO POSITIONS THAT I WOULD BE QUALIFIED. Overall 60-80 resumes in a month gave me 4 interviews, 3 with headhunters and 1 with potential employee through headhunter. Result: NOTHING.
I am covering Philadelphia - New Jersey - New York area.
Several buddies of mine, from last company (which, by the way, folded), have no problems finding freelance or contract deals. Ofcourse, they are Americans (unlike me, Green Card holder), lived in the area most of their lives and know people.
Go figure
Shura
[ June 19, 2002: Message edited by: Shura Balaganov ]

Any posted remarks that may or may not seem offensive, intrusive or politically incorrect are not truly so.
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Elizabeth King
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2002
Posts: 191
Is the Java market picking up?
Roseanne Zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 14, 2000
Posts: 1953
Yes, I think so. From the job posting on JavaMUG, I can see 3 changes:
1) Java job postings increased.
2) Requirements become somewhat reasonable.
3) Salary/rate become definitely more reasonable than 3 months ago too.
Ashik Uzzaman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 05, 2001
Posts: 2370

getting some lights!!


Ashik Uzzaman
Senior Member of Technical Staff, Salesforce.com, San Francisco, CA, USA.
Jim Baker
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 10, 2002
Posts: 177
I think the market is getting worse in next
a few months.
Bear Bibeault
Author and ninkuma
Marshal

Joined: Jan 10, 2002
Posts: 60774
    
  65

I think the market is getting worse in next
a few months.

And the reason you think this is...?
bear


[Asking smart questions] [Bear's FrontMan] [About Bear] [Books by Bear]
Jim Baker
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 10, 2002
Posts: 177
Because you are coming. The bear.
Jim Baker
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 10, 2002
Posts: 177
Just kidding.
Because enterprises are losing money. Many of them
think that they were burned by technologies. What
is the successful rate for an enterprise application? about 20%?! App Servers are too
expensive, good developers are very costly, and
bad developers make things even worse.
Elizabeth King
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2002
Posts: 191
Bad developer or bad project manager?
Reid M. Pinchback
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 25, 2002
Posts: 775
or bad senior manager? I have this theory that incompetence requires at least two levels of mutual support; the idiot and the idiot boss.
Generally technologies aren't good or bad. They are appropriate or inappropriate to the problem someone wants so solve, and they are either effectively or ineffectively applied. Pick the wrong technology and put it in the hands of an idiot (developer or project manager), with an idiot boss to ensure things keep heading in a dumb direction, and a company will lose money.


Reid - SCJP2 (April 2002)
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Well, these days I'm getting a cold call a week, from recruiters and companies, so the market is definately warming up.
--Mark
Tony Evans
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 29, 2002
Posts: 573
In Britain it is very bad, but what is soul destroying is the money offered for some postions, that still require a lot of experience, round the 20000 to 25000 per annum mark, a lot less than that offered to sales,banking or marketing graduates. That coupled with dealing with snotty nosed IT recruitment consultents, who look for tick in the box skills, have you got A how many years, have you got B how many years.
What happend to all round experience, and the fact that software developers had the ability/skills to learn new technologies on the job. I know this is what IT Managers say they are looking for, but someone forgot to mention that to HR and IT Recruitment agenceys.
I am beginning to think I would have been better of staying in the Army. The amount of effort I put into my career does not seem to be paying of in finacial dividends compared to my non IT graduate friends.
As soon as I get a job, I will take lessons in PC repair, and move into that role.
Cheers Tony
Roseanne Zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 14, 2000
Posts: 1953
Originally posted by TonyCavanagh:
As soon as I get a job, I will take lessons in PC repair, and move into that role.

Being a handy man would always payoff. No matter repairing PC, or refridgerator, copy machine, car, plumbing, etc. etc. Since no matter the market is up or down, people need them, actually even more on a down-market. I'd a co-worker switched from programming to network admin, never want to go back. He said even the neighbourhood volunteering work will keep him surviving for a long time, at least he will get a free lunch or so. When our old company shut down, he was the least worrying person...
Elizabeth King
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2002
Posts: 191
Mark: Where are yoy located?
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
I'm in Boston. Most jobs I hear of are in Boston & NYC, but they extend along the greater new england region, into the mid atlantic states.
--Mark
Jim Baker
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 10, 2002
Posts: 177
The market in TX is still very bad.
Tony Evans
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 29, 2002
Posts: 573
re : Being a handy man would always payoff.
There you have it, its the life of a handy man for me, at least I wont have to deal with IT Recruitment spivs.
I have an interview/exam today. A two hour test paper on Java and J2EE.
Ah well pass or fail its good Exam practise.
Cheers from the UK Tony
SJ Adnams
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 28, 2001
Posts: 925
Tony are you located in London?
Richard Scothern
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 25, 2001
Posts: 83
Originally posted by TonyCavanagh:
In Britain it is very bad, but what is soul destroying is the money offered for some postions, that still require a lot of experience, round the 20000 to 25000 per annum mark...

This I agree with. There is also a tendency to advertise jobs which require two years experince, but still have 'junior' before the title. Whereas In the US there is an increase in the number of non-paid development internships.
These are hard times.
SJ Adnams
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 28, 2001
Posts: 925
Just having java is not enough these days. You need to combine it with other enterprise skills, browsing through jobserve there are still big bucks in CRM, Content management, J2EE, Finance etc etc.
Tony Evans
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 29, 2002
Posts: 573
re : Tony are you located in London?
Yes in the Esat End of London a place called Hackney.
Cheers Tony
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Mary King:
Let's elect Hillary to bring the prosperity back.

Prosperity? Is that French for "corruption" or something?
SJ Adnams
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 28, 2001
Posts: 925
Tony,
Yeah, I live in a place called Dalston. It's just like Hackney - but more pimps and drug dealers.
Elizabeth King
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2002
Posts: 191
Jason: Did you mean "corporate corruption"?
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Mary King:
Jason: Did you mean "corporate corruption"?

Sorry, just a sarcastic swipe at the former Clonton administration.
Wade Neuwirth
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 22, 2002
Posts: 2
Originally posted by herb slocomb:
However, the client said I job hoopped too much since my last 2 positions lasted about 18 months, my current position 2 years, and the other job 3 years. Is that really job hopping or are these people just being insane in their requirements of looking for 15 different skill sets that you can only get by changing jobs every so often??

I also would like to know....I have been in the unfortunate position to have two lay-offs after a year and a year and a half long stints, then I did a little contracting and now I am here.
I WANT NOTHING MORE than to have a relatively stable longer term position.
My question is....HOW do you convey this to the company without bad mouthing everyone you have worked for in the past or padding your CV? I only list the things I have actually done and I always specify the level to which I know these products etc. I am something of a handyman myself. I have set up active directory for one client. I have setup JBoss/ Tomcat for another. I also am SCJP/OCP/MCP. 6 years exp. Unemployed 8 months.
I am starting to think IT professionals, students etc are going to get so disheartened they are going to change to doing something else. We all gotta eat.
[ August 22, 2002: Message edited by: Wade Neuwirth ]

"Laugh, and the whole world laughs with you. Cry, and they still think its funny." - Mr. Boffo
Jim Baker
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 10, 2002
Posts: 177
It is because that US companies do not want
to pursure eBusiness anymore, at least for now.
I'm wandering whether they will not utilize electricity in the future.
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
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