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Mark, you might find this interesting

Shura Balaganov
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 22, 2002
Posts: 664
since you might go to politics. I posted 2 books here that might be worth of your time.
Tragedy and Hope, The History of the World in our Time by Carroll Quigley
This was the night table history book of Bill Clinton (so one could hardly call it a conspiracy book, please ignore Amazon.com comments about it)
America's Secret Establishment by Antony C. Sutton
Interesting insight on who's closer to Marxism...
Shura


Any posted remarks that may or may not seem offensive, intrusive or politically incorrect are not truly so.
RusUSA.com - Russian America today - Guide To Russia
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Funny you should think that. I originally intended to go into politics. At MIT I minored in political science. However, while working on the 1992 Clinton campaign, I got really turned off. I don't think I have the stomach to deal with the deceit and back room deals.
However, I still plan on checking out those books. I believe we, as engineers, can stand to learn a lot from other fields. I remember in one of my political science classes looking at a voting model and saying, "hey, this is just like a magnetism model I learned in my physics class." Undoubtedly the reverse is true as well.
Actually, off the top of my head, I can think of concepts such as agenda setting and game theory which I use weekly in my work.
--Mark
Shura Balaganov
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 22, 2002
Posts: 664
Interesting, you might be a lot better opponent than these guys in Meaningless Drivel...
I had game theory class myself, although it was much more related to pure games than economy (hey, I was on the other side of the fence ).
But this is first I hear about Agenda Setting as science, although I knew it existed. Here's a sample article I found on the web, they mention some books. Would you recommend any reading on the issue, from mentioned books or from the top of your head? Thanks
How do you use these in your work?
Shura
[ July 01, 2002: Message edited by: Shura Balaganov ]
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
When I saw "Mark, you might find this interesting" topic on forum list, I already knew who is the author of this thread - because I would use the same subject...
And then, should I say that this weekened I was going to E-mail Shura and to say "let's go back to Mark's forum and make some mess there..." Do all Russians have the same mind or what is it
Shura Balaganov
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 22, 2002
Posts: 664
Hey, Map, we needed to gang up somewhere, right? And Mark seem not mind... besides he has open enough mind not to mind us dribbling... 'cause he deals with people whining every day here... :roll:
How about we form a small political fraction, Rights of Javaranch or something. Maybe we will get endorsements, I have a plan how to use them...
We all think about getting together, getting a few bottles of vodka and whining that everything sucks....or hom much money we made last week....or how many Armani suits we have....or that we bought a new car... STOP RIGHT NOW!
Shura
[ July 02, 2002: Message edited by: Shura Balaganov ]
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:
Would you recommend any reading on the issue, from mentioned books or from the top of your head? Thanks

Off the top of my head, I'd recommend the book "Getting to Yes" on negotiations. I'd also recommend most any general popular self-improvement type book like "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People" and even things like "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus."

Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:

How do you use these in your work?


Well, negotiations come up daily, in just about every meeting. Understanding how people work, again, is useful every day.
As for agenda setting and other game theory... Well, basic game theory principles talk about things like first player ad/disadvatage games. Recognizing what game I'm playing, I can choose to speak first, or let other's speak first.
As for agenda setting, that's a bit more subtle, but let me give you an example from history. At the US constitutional convention, George Mason arrived with a plan. Everyone else showed up just expecting some general debate. Because Mason had a concrete proposal, he framed the discussion and very heavily influenced our modern constitution. When I show up to a meeting with proposals, I understand when and how I can shape the discussion by decision how specific to make my proposals, and when to make them.
--Mark
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:
Hey, Map, we needed to gang up somewhere, right?

But we still have to maintain decorum of the forum!
Personally I found restrictions stimulating, and it's always possible to wrap your prose in something "Job discussion"-related.
For example, I remember you once asked (in Meaningless Drivel! :roll: ) how to break into tech.writing business because you want to spend your next unemployment time with better use
Today Sean Sullivan gave a link to Portland Java User Group here, and as I understand they are going to build local community of Java writers This may be a way for you to start!
See - now this my post is justified.
[ July 02, 2002: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
Shura Balaganov
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 22, 2002
Posts: 664
Thanks, Mark, I've done some reading of 7 Habits and Men are from Mars... negotiations (and influencing others) are topics I am interested in. Up until now I mostly've been invited to meetings as a "tech guy" and didn't usually have much saying in negotiations. Time has come for my viciousness to come out Somehow this purely business stuff about schedules, meetings, maintaining contacts, etc. that self-improvements books write about just bores me to death.
Map, I believe rules are there to be broken. Some do it every day with clear face, just ask Mark about Clinton's campaign... Thanks for writers link, but it looks like I am going to leave this sorry (or happy?) space of Java and go back to Microsoft side. My region is just 90% pro-Microsoft, what can I do... To get a Java job you need to have Mark's (or Michael's ) resume... I've got a job offer, with one more potentially coming up, both MS. I am planning to accept one after holidays :roll:
Shura
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Map, I believe rules are there to be broken.
Shura, you might find this interesting: http://magazines.russ.ru/zvezda/2001/7/epsh.html
"Русский ум любит действовать поперек правил, в промежутке между установленными дисциплинами, поперек и наискосок."
"Russian mind loves to operate against rules, between the established disciplines, across and obliquely."
"Men are from Mars..." has some interesting points but it desperately lacks depth and then, it's more about personbal communications. I found Deborah Tannen's "Talking from 9 to 5" more enlightening (do not pay attention to Amazon's review - they all are written by men, I am sure )
Ha! Just read another review:
"One of the most frequent criticisms I have heard of this work from my colleagues is, "So what do I do about it?", "How do I fix it?" Interesting enough to me, most of these comments were from men."
"Deborah Tannen is careful not to show a preference for one style over another, and careful to respect both speaking modes. This approach can be very frustrating to anyone looking for a "How to" business book. This book is not about solutions any more than a book comparing the French and Spanish cultures is about solutions. It is about understanding linguistic/cultural differences. Those who understand will appreciate the "other's" language. Those who do not understand will keep on misunderstanding, wondering what is wrong and looking for a book that will tell them how to fix it."
Of course, this very belief that everything can be easily fixed is a very American belief, hm... I woild even go so far to call *it* true "American dream"
[ July 07, 2002: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
Shura Balaganov
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 22, 2002
Posts: 664
Map, very good article. As I spend quite some time in Brooklyn, NY (for personal reasons ), I can hardly call this assimilation a "culture". But hey, I am entitled to my personal veird opinion.
Completely lost all train of thought....come back when I get one....
Shura
 
It is sorta covered in the JavaRanch Style Guide.
 
subject: Mark, you might find this interesting