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Speaking my mind

Amit Agrawal
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 23, 2001
Posts: 282
With all due respect to all moderators, I don't think closing this thread with following comments was great example of this site's policy:

Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
When DO'M says use the other thread he means use the other thread, as in the thread on this topic that is not this thread on this topic.

Duh.


I understand being moderator is a tough job esp with so many meaningless threads around and to be honest, that thread being locked doesn't bother much BUT i don't think there was any real need for getting mad at that thread...

People losing cool so easily reminds only one thing again and again � Meaningless Drivel can never return back to what it used to be and it hurts.
David O'Meara
Rancher

Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 13459

We always welcome positive feedback.

For the record, I thought the thread was a duplicate and I requested for it to be closed. Michael was kind enough to spare his time to do it for me.

I still do not see that these were two separate conversations, particularly since the 'additional' topic was covered happily in the original. I do not believe it is worth getting worked up discussing the relative merits of each discussion, the duplicate is closed and will remain closed.

Animated cricket discussions is something I understand, we just lost the Ashes. We don't need to go there. It's just MD, move on

thanks,
Dave.
ankur rathi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 11, 2004
Posts: 3830
I think, Amit is worrying about 'the comment Michael Ernest has given' not about 'closing the thread'.
David O'Meara
Rancher

Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 13459

So the outcome is "Michael is human"? I can live with that.
fred rosenberger
lowercase baba
Bartender

Joined: Oct 02, 2003
Posts: 11499
    
  16

personally, i thought his comment was hysterical. i laughed out loud, and didn't find it offensive at all.

just my humble 2cents.


There are only two hard things in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things, and off-by-one errors
Jason Cox
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 21, 2004
Posts: 287
Thin skin is not conducive to success in real life.
Maximilian Xavier Stocker
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 20, 2005
Posts: 381
My two cents.

I totally agree with Amit.

First of all unless something is in violation of a specific policy like being a Java question asked in the non Java forum or if it has degenerated into some sort filth flying flame war then I do not see any reason for any moderator to do anything to any threads in that forum.

Perhaps I am missing something? I read the page that is linked to at the top of the meaningless drivel forum and I don't see the part where moderators will make arbitrary decisions about what threads there will be on what topic (with the exception of again where the content and thread is personally abusive towards anybody).

And to clarify arbitrary what was done was arbitrary because it is a personal call, poster (perhaps OP) disagreed and quite frankly so do I. I think in that forum more objectiveness and less subjectiveness is a good thing to strive for.

My second point is this, say what you want about Amit or whoever having a thin skin but his point is ver valid. In numerous places on this site words like "Be nice" are stated. Also in the document again that is linked to at the top of the forum view page (for Meaningless drivel) it is very specific in stating that personal attacks will not be tolerated.

The comment was unneccessary and was personal. I believe Amit saw it like that and so did I.

So while I disagree with closing the thread at all I really feel that in the case that it was going to be closed it should have been closed without the comment because on top of the subjective nature of deciding to close the topic a fairly cardinal rule regarding behaviour on this site, was, in my mind, violated.
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

Originally posted by Maximilian Stocker:

The comment was unneccessary and was personal.

I feel it's good for me to remain silent for this thread so people can express their views on the matter without feeling like there's going to be some consequence to doing it.

On this statement, however, I take exception. In what way was the comment personal? Neither you nor Amit participated in this thread, so I don't see your point.

One poster directed everyone to another link which, in his mind, covered the subject. David provided the link. Another poster, said "oh, this is a whole different matter, etc."

At which point, in my mind, the topic assumec meaning. Please refer to the guidelines on MD postings regarding meaningful content.

As to commenting instead of deleting the thread, one reader saw the humor in it. Another started a "mockery" thread, which was a dead giveaway. Someone thought their MD post was really, really important, apparently. Bad idea for MD content.

Why anyone feels hurt by my comment is beyond me. The comment was completely aimed at ignoring the unassuming, polite direction of a moderator. That didn't work. Since I'd rather be answering questions in JiG and SCJP, I made the point as clearly as I could for the time I was willing to spare.


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- Robert Bresson
Vishnu Rao
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 20, 2005
Posts: 16
Originally posted by Maximilian Stocker:

So while I disagree with closing the thread at all I really feel that in the case that it was going to be closed it should have been closed without the comment because on top of the subjective nature of deciding to close the topic a fairly cardinal rule regarding behaviour on this site, was, in my mind, violated.


And I totally agree with you here

However, I have read few post from ME and he indeed is a nice chap, and I took those comments in lighter vein or infact those comments looked a bit cute to me

But for a new guy in site, not knowing people out here, reading those comment from a moderator "might" upset him.

All of the moderators are humans and bound to have some emotions, so just chill out don't take meaningless stuff so seriously !!!

Duh !
[ September 29, 2005: Message edited by: Vishnu Rao ]
Maximilian Xavier Stocker
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 20, 2005
Posts: 381
Originally posted by Michael Ernest:

I feel it's good for me to remain silent for this thread so people can express their views on the matter without feeling like there's going to be some consequence to doing it.

On this statement, however, I take exception. In what way was the comment personal? Neither you nor Amit participated in this thread, so I don't see your point.


I am not sure that my participation or lack thereof in the thread in question is relevent to this discussion. I read over this thread and the one in question and I am stating my opinion.

I am sorry that you do not agree with my assessment of "duh" being a personal attack. When I read that I see (more or less) "well you are stupid aren't you". That may not have been your intent but my point in posting at all was to say that I believe that Amit interpreted it like that and so did I and I think that demonstates, regardless of your intent, that the comment can be viewed as a personal attack.

My point again is that the comment added no value to that thread, it's only purpose that I can see was to point out how dumb in your mind somebody else was. The thread could have just been closed. If a comment was really necccessary than it should have and could have been phrased in a more constructive fashion. Lack of time is not an excuse because as I said if that is the case don't post anything.

As far as the closing the thread itself goes while I still lean personally towards not closing it I do concede that I am new to this site yet and am not overly clear on what the standards and policies are regarding content.

The only further comment I would make on that is that it seems to me that this site has a lot of unwritten guidelines and as a new person I am not finding it easy to understand what is acceptable or when. I am forming the opinion that it appears that there are different rules for different people, which I hope is an incorrect opinion but I am just stating that as it is what my experience here thus far is telling me.
fred rosenberger
lowercase baba
Bartender

Joined: Oct 02, 2003
Posts: 11499
    
  16

I'm seeing two issues being discussed here:

1) Should the thread have been closed
2) Was the comment by Michael mean/personal/necesary/not nice/whatever

as to issue 1 - it doesn't matter if you think think the thread should have been closed or not. Michael did, he is a Sherrif, and he did his job as he felt he should. Duplicate threads on the same topic are OFTEN closed, all througout these forums. And, as he stated, if you feel passionate that the thread should NOT be closed, then the thead has meaning, and therefore should not be here anyway.

now as to issue 2:
Michael did not make it personal. he didn't say "PERSON XYZ - YOU need to stop doing this. And in fact, since THREE people had posted between the "please move this discussion" and ME's post, he clearly wasn't referring to any ONE person.

Perhaps it's that last word - "Duh" - that he used that rub some folks the wrong way. That may be a cultural/humor thing. Basically, he was saying "Use the other thread" in a very COMPLICATED way, and then the "Duh" to me re-inforced the absurdity of his language.

It would be like writing "i ambulated along the paved area next to the automotive pathway to approach the local retail establishment to engage in a monetary bartering exhange for a refreshingly chilled carbonated, caffinated colored beverage to alieve my desire to consume liquid consumables" instead of saying "i walked to the store to buy a coke".

to put "duh" after the complicated statement is using two contrary things together to create that moment of unexpectedness, resulting (in my mind) in humor...
Gregg Bolinger
GenRocket Founder
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 15300
    
    6

My point again is that the comment added no value to that thread...

Comments in MD aren't required to add value. Entire threads in MD aren't required to contain value. That is why it is called Meaningless Drivel.

As far as the thread being closed, it was closed for the same reason we close other threads. More or less, it was a duplicate of the same conversation taking place in a different thread. So there was no need to open a brand new thread. The other thread is still open and everyone is more than welcome to post all they want to there.

Perhaps the word "duh" could have been omitted. Interestingly, had ME put a :roll: instead of the word "duh" we probably wouldn't be having this same conversation even though the meaning of either in this case would have been the same.

And I'll just add my opinion to people "offended" by the comment and the closing of that thread, lighten up. It's meaningless drivel for Christ's sake. :roll:


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Amit Agrawal
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 23, 2001
Posts: 282
Originally posted by Michael Ernest:

I feel it's good for me to remain silent for this thread so people can express their views on the matter without feeling like there's going to be some consequence to doing it.

On this statement, however, I take exception. In what way was the comment personal? Neither you nor Amit participated in this thread, so I don't see your point.

One poster directed everyone to another link which, in his mind, covered the subject. David provided the link. Another poster, said "oh, this is a whole different matter, etc."

At which point, in my mind, the topic assumec meaning. Please refer to the guidelines on MD postings regarding meaningful content.

As to commenting instead of deleting the thread, one reader saw the humor in it. Another started a "mockery" thread, which was a dead giveaway. Someone thought their MD post was really, really important, apparently. Bad idea for MD content.

Why anyone feels hurt by my comment is beyond me. The comment was completely aimed at ignoring the unassuming, polite direction of a moderator. That didn't work. Since I'd rather be answering questions in JiG and SCJP, I made the point as clearly as I could for the time I was willing to spare.


Michael - I have been registered member of JavaRanch for last 4+ years and I enjoy reading other�s views more than posting mine and that�s how i participate here. I am not sure if i am the only one that way but i don�t agree with the view that only those who post in a particular thread are the ones who participate and only they have right to say anything about the thread.

Regarding thread in discussion, I never said that it was a great thread, all I said that there was no need of getting mad at that thread. For the record, I am strongly against threads like this one and i 100% agree that that thread was not the right way to protest.

However if you think your comments were polite and unassuming than probably there are many ranchers who don't think the same way.


Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:

And I'll just add my opinion to people "offended" by the comment and the closing of that thread, lighten up. It's meaningless drivel for Christ's sake.



No worries Gregg. I lightened up myself by speaking my mind anyway. I know i can not change anything here and neither i want to...so its over from my side.
Jayesh Lalwani
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 05, 2004
Posts: 502
Originally posted by Maximilian Stocker:

I am sorry that you do not agree with my assessment of "duh" being a personal attack. When I read that I see (more or less) "well you are stupid aren't you". That may not have been your intent but my point in posting at all was to say that I believe that Amit interpreted it like that and so did I and I think that demonstates, regardless of your intent, that the comment can be viewed as a personal attack.


Yes, it was a bit harsh, Here have a cookie.



The only further comment I would make on that is that it seems to me that this site has a lot of unwritten guidelines and as a new person I am not finding it easy to understand what is acceptable or when. I am forming the opinion that it appears that there are different rules for different people, which I hope is an incorrect opinion but I am just stating that as it is what my experience here thus far is telling me.


I haven't been here too long either, so I might be wrong. I was under the impression that the rules are differrent in MD than rest of the board. I think the MD moderators allow a little bit of good-natured bashing that would not be tolerated on the rest of the board. However, MD moderators do keep an eye out for possible trainswrecks, and close them before they become trainwrecks.
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

AA: (I) don�t agree with the view that only those who post in a particular thread are the ones who participate and only they have right to say anything about the thread.

ME: What I meant was I don't understand how anyone who didn't post to the thread could feel offended by a comment aimed at the posts in the thread.

AA: All I said that there was no need of getting mad at that thread.

ME: I don't know where you get 'mad' from writing 'duh' instead of, say, :roll: . But for anyone who is easily bristeled or offended, I'm probably not the guy to read. I speak my mind and I trust after 6100+ posts most people know I'm not out to hurt anyone for jollies.
Amit Agrawal
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 23, 2001
Posts: 282
Originally posted by Michael Ernest:


AA: All I said that there was no need of getting mad at that thread.

ME: I don't know where you get 'mad' from writing 'duh' instead of, say, . But for anyone who is easily bristeled or offended, I'm probably not the guy to read. I speak my mind and I trust after 6100+ posts most people know I'm not out to hurt anyone for jollies.


by mad i meant unnecessarily locking up the thread and its just not duh or . and again for record, if not all ur 6100+ posts, i think have read quite a few of them. The reason i felt bad was that response came from you!

Anyway, if you honestly believe that was right, I don't think i want to discuss it further. We have both have invested more energy talking of that than it deserves.
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

Tell that to Map, who's been beating me over the head with it all day...
paul wheaton
Trailboss

Joined: Dec 14, 1998
Posts: 20730
    ∞

Because of language and cultural differences, the true meaning of a message over this medium can be easily mis-interpretted.

I think a great way to tell a person's character is to see if they are finding the best possible interpretation of a message, or the worst. Icky people tend to find the worst possible interpretation. Decent folk tend to find the best possible interpretation.

Another great way to tell a person's character is to see if they try to make ugly situations better or worse.

And yet another great way to find the quality of a person's character is how they behave when confronted with an actual personal attack: do they blow their top, or do they brush it aside. A person that brushes it aside clearly does not value the opinion of the person that is attacking them and feels good enough about themselves that such an attack seems petty and not worth a response.

Well, just a few of my own personal ramblings. Probably a bit off topic, eh? So back to the topic.

I read Michael's post. He said some sort of goofy convoluted thing. And then he said "Duh" to emphasize that what he said was not exactly obvious. It was an attempt at humor. Not a particularly good attempt, but people desperate for a little more humor in their lives will stoop to anything. Even puns. Humor is a dangerous tool. Sometimes you get a laugh and sometimes you piss people off. This looks like the case for the latter. Michael, you tried to give us a laugh and I appreciate that. But your joke fell flat. Tell the nice people you're sorry that your joke turned out to be a dud and let's forget about all this.

As for one thread vs. two: If it were in any other forum, I would say we should probably go with one. For MD .... hmmmm .... one or two doesn't matter. Who cares? If a mod wants to tinker with it, let em!

It really warms my heart that this is ugliest thing we've seen in a while. Kinda shows that this is a pretty damn smooth community!


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Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

Nothing makes me sorrier than hearing something like 'humor is a dangerous tool.' Paul, at this moment, I'm sad you wrote this.

A bad joke is what it is. Studying one is pretty much the death penalty. You kill a little of everyone when you use it.

This one's been studied long enough. I'm sorry to apologize for making a bad joke. Those of you who know me well know I am just saying the words. But, Maximilian, Amit, et al, if that's what you came here for: I apologize.
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Paul Wheaton:
But your joke fell flat. Tell the nice people you're sorry that your joke turned out to be a dud and let's forget about all this.


Dont want to hi-jack the thread but mockery[I think I should have used some better word] was not for ME, it was for something that ME is not for.

My appologies to all who found it offensive.

I'm sorry to apologize for making a bad joke.
This is what I like ME for

AW I think Paul has made best comment as always. [yaa, sometime best hurts but its OK]

And again my apologies to all if my post failed to make its point.


"Thanks to Indian media who has over the period of time swiped out intellectual taste from mass Indian population." - Chetan Parekh
Dave Lenton
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 20, 2005
Posts: 1241
The trouble with text-only communication is that its missing a large chunk of the information we normally throw about when we talk to each other. Without all the of the body language, facial expressions and tone of voice, the message can sometimes get garbled or more open to interpretation. Throw in people looking at the same message from different cultural and linguistic backgrounds, and its no surprise that sometimes comments are seen to have different meanings by different people.

I tend to just assume that anything I read here is being typed with a smile on the writer's face and read everything like a light hearted comment. Its a bit like appending invisible smiling emoticons to everything. Of course this is also a biased interpretation and could cause misunderstanding, but then again it makes the ranch seems like quite a jolly place.


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Gregg Bolinger
GenRocket Founder
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 15300
    
    6

Originally posted by Dave Lenton:
I tend to just assume that anything I read here is being typed with a smile on the writer's face and read everything like a light hearted comment. Its a bit like appending invisible smiling emoticons to everything. Of course this is also a biased interpretation and could cause misunderstanding, but then again it makes the ranch seems like quite a jolly place.


Well said. If everyone took on this attitude this place would be that much better and threads like this wouldn't even exist.
Amit Agrawal
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 23, 2001
Posts: 282
Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:


Well said. If everyone took on this attitude this place would be that much better and threads like this wouldn't even exist.


and no thread will need to be managed by any moderators either

Anyway i apologize for bringing this topic/thread. Request to get past/delete this thread so that no more energy is wasted on this topic.
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

Duh.
Mark Spritzler
ranger
Sheriff

Joined: Feb 05, 2001
Posts: 17260
    
    6

Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
Duh.


No. Duh!

Mark


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paul wheaton
Trailboss

Joined: Dec 14, 1998
Posts: 20730
    ∞

Doo dah, doo dah ...
Amit Agrawal
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 23, 2001
Posts: 282
Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
Duh.


 
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subject: Speaking my mind