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Strange Recruiter Questions

John Fontana
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2002
Posts: 235
I just had a recruiter ask me for the details of everyone I've spoken to recently about potential work. I put him off for a while by saying that I had to look up the info and e-mail it to him.
Is this an accepted practice, or should I not be giving this information out to anyone? BTW, the company is Remington International...


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"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten."
Chad McGowan
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 10, 2001
Posts: 265
John, I had several recruiters ask me the same type of question when I was job hunting last year.
The reason: Recruiters only get credit for submitting your resume to companies that don't already have it.
I didn't want to give out this information either, so my solution was to make them tell me what company they were going to submit my resume to, then I would tell them if I had already been in contact with that company(directly or via another recruiter).
Also, I had some recruiters that wanted me to sign a form saying that I had not previously submitted a resume to the company that they were contracting with. That way they were guaranteed to get paid...
Chad
Dan Chisholm
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 02, 2002
Posts: 1865
If the recruiter asked for names and phone numbers then I would assume that the recruiter was trying to collect additional contacts for his/her own networking purposes.


Dan Chisholm<br />SCJP 1.4<br /> <br /><a href="http://www.danchisholm.net/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Try my mock exam.</a>
Roseanne Zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 14, 2000
Posts: 1953
I always do what Chad McGowan said. They have to get my permission before submitting my resume.
However, now market is tougher for them too. Hiring companies pull resume from monster.com or such too. Even you did not submit your resume to that company, but that company might already have your resume.
Several resumes of our recent hires are from such websites.
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
They ask for the reasons given above. The only time I give out that info is if I use multiple recuiters, especially in a market like this, to let them know to which company I have submitted a resume, so they don't waste time chasing down leads I've already pursued. You need to get a sense of whether he's asking more for this reason, or whether he's trying to get more leads for his own interests.
For the record, I hate Remmington. We used to hire from them, here's our experience...
I hired one kid from them. This was Feb 2000 (strong market). He had a few years experience, but didn't realize how much he was worth (he was doing software for some mining company, not a true IT company). We hired him for $40 from Remmington. A month later, we bumped him up to what he was worth--$60k. The recuiter was pretty foolish to let him go for that little in that market.
This same sleazeball recruiter also pressured him. I gave him on offer on Thur or Fri. I didn't give a formal deadline, and generally I give people two weeks to decide. The recruiter took it upon himself to call the candidate and tell him that I really needed a decisions by Monday and if I didn't get it, we may offer the job to someone else. He put words in my mouth and misrepresented the company.
Remmington also had a very foolish manner of doing interviews. We told them we needed a position filled, and they would say, come in Thur morning, and we'll have 6 candidates lined up for you. Of course, since they generally had crappy candidates, it was usually a waste of time. We told them we won't look at a candidate unless we see the resume first. They didn't like that, but eventually we told them "do it our way or lose our business." We also told them to send the candidates to us, because we didn't want to waste our time going down there. Basically, they have some bass awkward practices and sleazy tactics.
--Mark
John Fontana
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2002
Posts: 235
As tough as the job market is, I really don't feel compelled to give this guy my information after all I've heard here.
I wonder: if they push my resume onto a company that might come across my resume in a different context later on, are they obliged to pay Remington a fee if they want to hire me then?
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by John Fontana:
As tough as the job market is, I really don't feel compelled to give this guy my information after all I've heard here.

I concur.

Originally posted by John Fontana:
I wonder: if they push my resume onto a company that might come across my resume in a different context later on, are they obliged to pay Remington a fee if they want to hire me then?

The typical contract says after they get your name, if they hire you within either 12 or 18 months, they have to pay a fee. That's what it says on paper anyway. A HR guy I used to work with claimed these contracts are legally unenforcible. You can also claim, at any time, with no prior notice, that the recruiter no longer represents you. Of course the company may still feel obligated to pay, no matter what you say, just to not get a bad rep at that company or at others.

--Mark
Carlisia Campos
sanitation engineer
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 22, 2001
Posts: 135
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

The typical contract says after they get your name, if they hire you within either 12 or 18 months, they have to pay a fee. That's what it says on paper anyway. A HR guy I used to work with claimed these contracts are legally unenforcible. You can also claim, at any time, with no prior notice, that the recruiter no longer represents you. Of course the company may still feel obligated to pay, no matter what you say, just to not get a bad rep at that company or at others.
--Mark

Just to reinforce, in a career course I took at BU the teacher, who's a long timer HR professional, said the company is obliged to pay the recruiter, and she said it is a legal obligation. Actually, she said recruiters send piles of any resumes they can get their hands on, anexed to a contract, to as many non-client companies as they can so as to increase the chances of that company having to pay them a hiring fee after hiring someone from that pile. The deal is: if the company opens the package that has the resume and the contract, they're automatically binded to that contract. If this company hires you through other means and the recruiter finds out, they can go after the company. That's why, according to this teacher, the companies don't usually open unsolicited packages that come from recruiters.
I know... the companies can open the package and then just say they never did. It doesn't sound like it makes sense... does anyone know how this works for real?


i blog here: carlisia.com
Roseanne Zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 14, 2000
Posts: 1953
Smart companies anounce first before hiring. "We don't accept any resume from recruiter agencies except the two we have relation with." or even "No third party envolved!"
John Fontana
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2002
Posts: 235
Great feedback from all on this one...everyone's responses definitely affected my decision to ignore the recruiter on this one.
With a little more research, I found several bogus ads from Remington on Dice listing VERY generic-sounding positions with wide salary ranges. I cannot imagine that any hiring manager would be thrilled to get a call from Remington.
Dan Chisholm
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 02, 2002
Posts: 1865
I've noticed that some companies post the same position on dice week after week. Later, I heard that companies that post the same job on a weekly basis are probably doing so to satisfy the federal requirement to continue to search for US citizens that can fill a position that is currently held by a foreigner with an H1 Visa. For that reason, companies will continue to post advertisements for jobs that are already filled.
Sach Baat
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 07, 2002
Posts: 21
Originally posted by Dan Chisholm:
Later, I heard that companies that post the same job on a weekly basis are probably doing so to satisfy the federal requirement to continue to search for US citizens that can fill a position that is currently held by a foreigner with an H1 Visa.

There is no such requirement.
Dan Chisholm
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 02, 2002
Posts: 1865
Originally posted by Baat:

There is no such requirement.

What federal laws apply to the hiring of those with an H1 visa? Are you saying that there is no requirement to first hire a US citizen that is qualified for the job? If there is such a requirement, then how is it enforced? How does the US government verify that a corporation has complied with the law?
Sach Baat
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 07, 2002
Posts: 21
Originally posted by Dan Chisholm:

What federal laws apply to the hiring of those with an H1 visa? Are you saying that there is no requirement to first hire a US citizen that is qualified for the job? If there is such a requirement, then how is it enforced? How does the US government verify that a corporation has complied with the law?

Once a foreign person is hired, there is no federal requirement that the company should continue to search for US citizens that can fill the same position.
From what I know, the foreign national has to clear a labour certification before he gets the job.
Roseanne Zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 14, 2000
Posts: 1953
Originally posted by Dan Chisholm:
I've noticed that some companies post the same position on dice week after week. Later, I heard that companies that post the same job on a weekly basis are probably doing so to satisfy the federal requirement to continue to search for US citizens that can fill a position that is currently held by a foreigner with an H1 Visa. For that reason, companies will continue to post advertisements for jobs that are already filled.

That is the known formality for processing the person's green card application. They need to prove that no US citizen or PR is able to fill that position. Then he/she can get his/her labor certificate. Those ads has a common character is requiring some rare specific unrealistic requirements (simply to say, if the person knows quantum mechanics plus Java plus OR, the ads will try to require all of them in a subtle way) to deter applicants. However, if you do apply, the job of the interviewer is to disqualify you. All resumes received and the interviews must be documented and send for review by INS. The ads need to run certain period of time (3 or 6 months? not sure!). The process is major handled by a lawyer (Co's or outside's hired by the applicants), who know what to do exactly to complete the job successfully. Those lawyers are very common former INS officers/employees, immigration lawmakers, etc.
Obviously, this process is legal by the law of the US. I've no comments on this process is morally correct or wrong.
With the exception of native Americans, all of us here actually are immigrants or their decedents, who came to America legally or illegally...
Just FYI.
[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: Roseanne Zhang ]
Christine Melissa
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 07, 2002
Posts: 7
Hi everyone,


Christine<br />Infinity Consulting Group<br />clanasa@infinitygroup.com
Christine Melissa
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 07, 2002
Posts: 7
Hi, I'm a recruiter myself and after reading some of the replies I thought maybe my comments could be useful. #1.Contrary to popular belief we are not all monsters. #2.I never ask for a list of companies that a candidate has dealt with in the last few months because there is no need and you should not feel obliged to answer that. The thing I do ask is-- if a candidate has been presented to a company, not a recruiting firm but an end client. I ask this so I know that if it is one of my clients I can not send their resume over as well. And something for all of you to know is that if 2 recruiting companies submit your resume to the same hiring manager your chances of getting that job become slim to none because the hiring manager does not want to deal with the 2 companies fighting with them over candidate ownership, so be careful who you give permission to send your resume out!!! #3. The policy in my company is to meet face to face with a candidate, check references, and discuss the end client before submitting a resume. I take pride in this because we are not a meat shop and we DO NOT in any way send our clients a whole bunch of resumes, we send only qualified individuals who are in agreement with us to be submitted. Managers DO NOT want to see quantity they want to see quality. In some cases I will not meet with a candidate face to face, but this would be in extreme circumstances, I don't like to do business that way. #4.When we post resumes on job boards it is because the position is open, we do not do it to meet any federal requirement, I've never heard of that??? Sometimes, the position will close and it will take a day to get it down from posting but we try our best to avoid that. #5. Last but not least, although the market is tough you still want to be careful with the recruiting companies you work with!!! Ask questions, if you do not feel comfortable with something you have every right to express that!! I may not be able to tell you who my client is until I am ready to submit you but any other questions you have I would be more than happy to answer. I am a good recruiter and I do care about my candidates, it's just too bad that every recruiting firm is not like mine. There is only one catch with my company, we do not handle entry level, except the occasional internship we get. So, maybe this will change your minds about a few things. Thanks!!!
Roseanne Zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 14, 2000
Posts: 1953
Originally posted by Christine Melissa:
#3. The policy in my company is to meet face to face with a candidate, check references, and discuss the end client before submitting a resume. I take pride in this because we are not a meat shop and we DO NOT in any way send our clients a whole bunch of resumes, we send only qualified individuals who are in agreement with us to be submitted. Managers DO NOT want to see quantity they want to see quality. In some cases I will not meet with a candidate face to face, but this would be in extreme circumstances, I don't like to do business that way.

That is my hate most thing to deal with recruiters. I drove more than 200 miles (400 miles round trip) just to meet those recruiters and fill out the long-long inventory list. I was so exhausted by four recruiters. You can see that I was smart enough to consolidate them in one day. After that incident, I decided not to deal with those recruiters unless they are close to my home/workplace.
[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: Roseanne Zhang ]
Michael Target
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 25, 2002
Posts: 12
Originally posted by Christine Melissa:
#3. The policy in my company is to meet face to face with a candidate, check references, and discuss the end client before submitting a resume.

It's something new. Why do you want to check references before submitting a resume?
Roseanne Zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 14, 2000
Posts: 1953
This is not new, they do it when they have more candidates than needed, simplely try to filter someone out. Of course, first filter out the bad resumes, then good resumes but who knows???
However, I don't believe that they did this two years ago, since good candidates will go away immediately. The market is getting extremely tight, more recruiters are doing this now than before...
Demand and supply ...
[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: Roseanne Zhang ]
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Michael Target:

It's something new. Why do you want to check references before submitting a resume?

"Hello Mr. HR Manager, we've never met, but I'd like you to consider hiring some stranger I've never met, either. By calling you and taking your time, I am putting my name and the name of my comapny behind this candidate, who has, by sending me a resume, demonstrated mastery of both text files AND email. I'm impressed, I'm sure you will be, too."
What amazes me is how many people accept thing blindly. If someone ever calls me up asking for a reference on someone, I won't give it until I can confirm with the person in question that the person who called me is legit. Most people who simply trust someone who can dial a phone to be completely honest. (Granted, all this comes from a background in security.)
To put it less sarcasticly, when a company sends a resume, they put their name behind it. I'd never want to bet my company on a stranger. by checking references, they help to insure the resume is accuratre. Can references be faked? Sure, but it's less common. Like all security, you need to find the right cost-risk analysis.
Frankly, I'm surprised people didn't check references so early. I know mnay companies that did. I guess the "new economy" rules just didn't see it as that important.

--Mark
Sach Baat
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 07, 2002
Posts: 21
Originally posted by Michael Target:

It's something new. Why do you want to check references before submitting a resume?

I made the mistake of giving my references to recruiters. Some of them went and called my references. Later on I found out that they did not have a single job. They simply wasted my time and the time of my references.
Now I no longer give out my references to recruiters.I give them out only to the end client.
Dan Chisholm
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 02, 2002
Posts: 1865
Christine,
Here's my experience with immigration law. In 1997, I hired a software engineer that was a Chinese citizen. The H.R. department told me that they would handle the immigration work and I mistakenly assumed they would do so. Several months later, the employee informed me that he had checked with H.R. and found that they had not continued the paper work. Instead, the new H.R. management team had replaced the old immigration lawyer and they dropped the ball in the process. The new H.R. people told me that they could not apply for the green card until they advertise the position for some period of time. If no citizens were found that could fill the position, then they could file the papers.
I took a look at one of the web sites that offer information on the process. I found that the advertisements are suppose to be published before the person starts the job. Apparently, if that wasn't done then it is possible to advertise after the person starts the job.
I know that when I hired that particular person the H.R. department pulled his resume off of the Internet so the job was never advertised before the person was hired.
Roseanne Zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 14, 2000
Posts: 1953
Originally posted by Dan Chisholm:
I found that the advertisements are suppose to be published before the person starts the job.

Theoretically, yes! Practically, no company is willing take the risk/spend the money to advertising for someone practically unknown. Only after they hired the person, and feel he/she is a keeper, then they are willing to go through the trouble of the formality.
 
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