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where do all java jobs go?

rick collette
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 208
In this city with about 1 millions people, I have not seen any real java job within two months, other than two "impossible" jobs demanding 5 year
Java and 8 year IT experience. When I tried to contact them for one position, they told me they had got more than 300 applicants, so I quit. I am wondering where I can find a Java job in US, or I just should quit what I love and do something else?
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
You should write your congressman, sentators, and John Ashcroft complaining about infectious greed and the accounting scandals.
JiaPei Jen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 19, 2000
Posts: 1309
A friend of mine who was laid off in April, 2001 but successfully landed a job in June, 2001 is laid off again together with his colleagues this month (August 2002). Are we in so called "double dip recession"? Are we going to see the end of the tunnel?
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by rick collette:
In this city with about 1 millions people, I have not seen any real java job within two months, other than two "impossible" jobs demanding 5 year
Java and 8 year IT experience. When I tried to contact them for one position, they told me they had got more than 300 applicants, so I quit. I am wondering where I can find a Java job in US, or I just should quit what I love and do something else?

Why is 5 years Java and 8 years IT impossible? I know people who qualify.
Quitting for such a position won't help you get it.
As for giving up on Java/IT--that's hard to say. I think the lower 20% of "programmers" should do just that. The market was overinflated. I don't know you or your skills, you need to evaluate where you are. if you're not an the lower 20%, then personally, I say keep trying, and this time don't give up--most jobs today will get 300 resumes.
--Mark
Rob Ross
Bartender

Joined: Jan 07, 2002
Posts: 2205
My employer received almost 200 resumes for the job which I eventually got. So there is a lot of competition right now, that is quite true.
I'm lucky to have a lot of experience in this industry at the moment. If I was just starting out I think I might go into something else...for me it would have been writing or music.
Btw, I had applied to about 30 companies, and got 3 phone calls, and 2 actual in-person interviews, and when this company offered me a job, I took it immediately. It's not quite a perfect fit, and I'm underemployed at the moment, but I still consider myself lucky.


Rob
SCJP 1.4
Shura Balaganov
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 22, 2002
Posts: 664
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

Why is 5 years Java and 8 years IT impossible? I know people who qualify.
Quitting for such a position won't help you get it.
As for giving up on Java/IT--that's hard to say. I think the lower 20% of "programmers" should do just that. The market was overinflated.

Mark, no offense, but I think you should quit writing books, as well as being a moderator of this forum. Because you don't have 5 years of experience, so you don't qualify. :roll: Oh, and author market is darn overinflated, have you been to Borders lately?
Again, what is your advice for people right out of college? Quit? It's about time you admit that job market is not going anywhere (and most of readers on this forum might as well grab a Sneakers ).
Trying to keep you on your toes
To comment on Rob's numbers... I sent out about 300 resumes (and I have 7 years of IT), got about 10-15 phone (most of them phony) calls, 3 in-person interviews, one of which was an offfer I accepted.
Shura
[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: Shura Balaganov ]

Any posted remarks that may or may not seem offensive, intrusive or politically incorrect are not truly so.
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Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:
Again, what is your advice for people right out of college? Quit? It's about time you admit that job market is not going anywhere (and most of readers on this forum might as well grab a Sneakers ;) ).
Trying to keep you on your toes ;) :p

Recheck my postings. I've always been saying it's tough if you have less then 2 years experience. But overall the market isn't that bad. I continue to hear about recruiters and companies calling people.
Heck, my friends in graphic design are starting to get more jobs. that's a very positive sign for me.
--Mark
John Fontana
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2002
Posts: 235
I have 10 years IT/5 years programming experience. Recently I made a poster to hang in my neighborhood to give guitar lessons.
It's not time to quit programming. It's just time to play dirty. Finding some other vocation until we're Jedi again is not the end of the world. I can see a certain kind of dignity in refusing to participate in the dog market we have now.
Mark, it is well known that you see this job market as some sort of Darwinistic cleansing. The fact is, if only the cream of the crop can get into the field, than the market obviously stinks.
To say that a market that allows at least a few entry-level people to have a fair shake at a job is "overinflated", is absurd and elitist. When was the last time anybody ever saw a job ad that said "will train right candidate"?


www.websiteandsound.com
"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten."
Shura Balaganov
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 22, 2002
Posts: 664
From IThotJobs.com
Information Week magazine:

Times have changed. According to a new study by Information Week magazine, information technology managers across the country will see an 8 percent decline in total compensation this year. The average IT worker's salary will fall 11 percent. Information Week stated that managers who were given a median bonus of $17,000 last year will receive $6,000 this year, while for regular IT workers bonuses will fall from $11,000 to $2,000. "No one is hiring technology people at the ludicrous salaries they were a year ago. Those days are long gone." The fallout: The only people hurt more than IT workers themselves are the people whose job it was to find jobs for the IT workers. IT Recruiters are not posting to the job boards.


Recruiter insights:

MSI, a 33-year-old staffing agency in Atlanta. The company used to receive 150 e-mails a day from people looking for jobs. It now receives a storage-capacity-reaching 400 e-mails a day from people looking for jobs. "We are seeing a ton of people who used to be project managers who are now willing to take less pay and do work they are extremely overqualified for," "People are saying, `I'll do anything you need me to do just to find work.'
BIG 6 Search International a firm specializing in BIG 5/Top Tier placements. The company is currently receiving 800 e-mails a day with the fallout coming from all the global firms.
Fewer listings on the job board for IT professionals, dropped from a one-time high of 60,000 to the current 8,000 listings on one of the services. The market has started to turn around a little bit, but nothing that would foreshadow a return to the glory days. "I think both sides learned a valuable lesson here," "Corporations learned that IT people don't have to be overpaid, and IT professionals learned they might have to scrap the jeans and T-shirts for a pair of khakis and something with a collar."


Shura
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by John Fontana:
Mark, it is well known that you see this job market as some sort of Darwinistic cleansing. The fact is, if only the cream of the crop can get into the field, than the market obviously stinks.

This is exactly the type of misassumptions that cause people to overheat at my comments. Yes, I do see this as a "Darwinistic cleansing" (although I prefer the term "market correction"). But I have never, ever, said "cream of the crop" and I challenege you to show me a posting where I did say that. I think the only specifics I've given as to where the cuttoff is the bottom 10-20%. Considering how many people with little or no skills jumped into the market in the last few years, losing the bottom 10-20% doesn't seem overly harsh or serious to me. It means 80% of the people should still be abel to get jobs. I've always said competant people with 2-3 years experience should be be able to get jobs.
As I pointed out to Shura above, I certainly conceed that it's hard for entry level people. is the market great? Of course not. But when you consider the economic history of the US over the last 100 years, it's not too bad. Not great, but not too bad. The problem is people have such a skewed view after the last 5-10 years that this market looks far worse then it is.

Originally posted by John Fontana:
When was the last time anybody ever saw a job ad that said "will train right candidate"?

Ad in the paper? Never. However, I did see Microsoft, Oracle, and IBM at some college career fairs last year. These companies know that when you hire a kid out of school, even a top one, you need to let them learn and get some experience before they are seriously productive. Yet, even in this market, they hire them anyway.
--Mark
John Fontana
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2002
Posts: 235
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

I have never, ever, said "cream of the crop" and I challenege you to show me a posting where I did say that. I think the only specifics I've given as to where the cuttoff is the bottom 10-20%. Considering how many people with little or no skills jumped into the market in the last few years, losing the bottom 10-20% doesn't seem overly harsh or serious to me. It means 80% of the people should still be abel to get jobs. I've always said competant people with 2-3 years experience should be be able to get jobs.
--Mark

I construed "cream of the crop" as your perspective on available jobs not because you described it as such, but because that is what you are, and as that it may be difficult for you to see from others' perspective.
My view is also affected by being in New York, where we continue to feel the post - 9-11 damage. There would be many more options open to me if I could deal with a 4-hour commute. (Unless those ads are fake, too).
BTW, I don't regard your statements as inflammatory or cause for overheating...just fodder for a good, energetic discussion .
So, Mark, if you needed a programmer, would you hire me?
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by John Fontana:

I construed "cream of the crop" as your perspective on available jobs not because you described it as such, but because that is what you are, and as that it may be difficult for you to see from others' perspective.

Well, thank you. One of the single most important skills I've learned is how to see something from someone else's perspective. This, btw, is helpful both for job relationships, and personal relationships (friends and spouces).
For the cream of the crop, I don't see any problems. For the majority of competant people, I think, if you're willing to pound the pavement, jobs can be found. I've got friends at various levels of skill.
Originally posted by John Fontana:

My view is also affected by being in New York, where we continue to feel the post - 9-11 damage.

I'll certainly conceed NYC may be worse then most places, just bceuase of 9-11.

Originally posted by John Fontana:

So, Mark, if you needed a programmer, would you hire me?

I'll put it this way, the next time I need to hire someone, you can be sure that I'll first post to JavaRanch to solicit resumes. :-)

--Mark
ersin eser
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2001
Posts: 1072
I don't have a CS degree. Just have a technical piece of paper from one of those schools that I can't even mention: the ones that Mark get mad at
I have a total of 15 months experience. Got my first Job last May at my very first interview. And few days ago I quitted it. Then found a better one. It was the very first interview again. I know that I am lucky.
I am not an engineer, and as I said I am not a CS guy. I consider myself a person who is madly in love with JAVA & programming.
I think there is always a chance to get a job. Just don't give up.You have to be brave. New job that I got uses M$-SUN mixed technologies.
Probably I am in that bottom %10 percent but I just don't give a damn, that's Darwin's problem. I love what I do and that's the attitude that I bring to the interview. Of course I didn't apply for a job that was asking for 8 years experience ++
But if I see something that I like and that I can perform I just go ahead and apply for it. Unanswered emails are not my barrier. I re-apply for it, I find their phone number & bug them to death until I get a "NO", "It has been filled" or "OK come in for an interview" answer. If they say "no" then I ask: Why. If they say "It has been filled" then I ask "When or etc".If they ask some algorithm that I don't know I just accept that I don't know it and but that does not put me down. Some people hate my style some people just love it. If I can show someone that I am capable of doing it, learning and growing that's is good enough for me. I just go to the interview to enjoy it. In my mind I am the winner if they don't see it, then too bad for them .
There are hundreds of companies out there: Go to their web sites, check for careers page. You can not just use the dice and monster etc . I hate Monster and SetFocus( they pop up everywhere) makes me puke !
You will be OK if you believe in yourself and if you truely go for it!
Good Luck to all
[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: ersin eser ]
Shura Balaganov
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 22, 2002
Posts: 664
Here's a link about entry level jobs (and how to get precious experience) that Recruiter sent me(!!! no wonder he's in a *million dollar* club):
http://www.computeruser.com/articles/2107,1,2,1,0701,02.html
Shura
[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: Shura Balaganov ]
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by ersin eser:

Probably I am in that bottom %10 percent but I just don't give a damn, that's Darwin's problem. I love what I do and that's the attitude that I bring to the interview.

While I have never actually met you or seen your resume, my impression is that you're well above the bottom 10%. It's an issue of abilities, not knowledge.
--Mark
rick collette
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 208
I got 3.85/4.0 GPA with a MS in computer science,
I have SCJP now. I have been pretty aggressive. The person in HR asked me if I had any experience
on a list of things (about 10 skills), told me don't apply if with less than 5 year Java experience since they already had these kinds of people. This market simply sucks.
John Coxey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 24, 2000
Posts: 503
Rick:
Are you looking nation-wide or just in the NYC
area?
I would hope with MS-CS that you would get some
on-site interviews within 8-10 weeks of starting
your job search. Especially if willing to go
nationwide.
The QPA on MS degree won't hurt - but most MS
degree programs don't count grades less than a
"B" towards graduation. Weird - but no one has
asked me for a set of transcripts since I got
my MS-CS degree 2 yrs ago.
-------
Note: I am planning on starting job search in a
about 4 weeks when I get back from guide trip in
Montana (Big Horn River). Am hoping I don't have
to spend this XMAS on sidelines not working.
Johnny


John Coxey
Evansville, Indiana, USA
stephen Kang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 26, 2002
Posts: 53
we had to admit the fact that the economy is not good at all. One fact that one of my friend who got graduated EE major from UIUC, which is #2 ranking in the nation and has a decent gpa, couldn get any engineering job for an year. And many new just graduates i know from uiuc couldn find out the job related with their major.
Don't say they are not struggling just because you guys came to this fields earlier than them while the market was flashing. Just 2 years ago, most students from CS dept from that college were considering to pick 3 or 4 offers among the top companys such as ibm,sun,microsoft,hp,etc.
right now, i hardly hear one got hired.
Your careless comment make many people really depressing. Since buyers market is bigger than sellers and IT manager wants to hire one who already experienced That doesn mean you are smarter or deserve to get what you do now.


Stephen Kang
rick collette
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 208
Stephen, I absolutely second your points.
3 years ago, some one who even does not have a CS degree could land a job just cuz he/she took some cs classes. These people are still holding their jobs. You cannot say they are smarter than us, they were just lucky. I talked with one with more than 4 year experience on C++ programming, he even does not know about how to identify palindromes. Will these companies fire these people cuz they are not smarter than us? I guess not. I wish I can compete with these employed people also since they just talk too easy.
stephen Kang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 26, 2002
Posts: 53
My initial response didn mean offend other people. But it seems to me that some people who had a good luck to land decent position doesn appreciate for their luck. and i think we sould sorry for many other guys who is struggling with the bad situation.
i don't think we can just assume many gradutes from engineering (maybe 70% or 80%) these days are not qualified to get a job related with their major just because they don't have experience. that should be more than normal expectation. Will you expect you r not going to get hired after spending tough engineering curriculum without going out the bar during weekend?
i guess a little bit sympathetic attitude and giving a good advice will encourage our unlucky collegues in the field.
Luckily, i got hired some software developer position as sort of "intern" job.(many company nowadays,consider the recent graduates as a "intern"(e.g ibm). Needless to say, that doesn mean i am really qualifed than those who doesn have any luck yet.
Anyways,what do you mean "10%"?
Scott Hajer
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 26, 2001
Posts: 29
This question is for Shura, though others have said similar things in other messages.
When you say "10-15 phone (most of them phony)calls" -- what do you mean by phony?
Scott


Scott Hajer<br />Manager<br />Pariveda Solutions<br /> <br /><a href="http://www.parivedasolutions.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">www.aquent-it-solutions.com</a><br /><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/scotthajer" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">My LinkedIn Profile</a><br /> <br />
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Just out of curiousity, because i hear a lot of people mentioning dealing with recruiters, how are you all going about trying to find jobs?
I see no reason to rely on recruiters. Nor do I see any reason to rely on job ads. Have any of you guys been doing any cold calling? Have any of you been extensively networking? What about looking for related jobs such as help desk in order to get your foot in the door? For citizens, have you ever tried applying directly with any of the various federal agencies? Most of these places bring people in at entry level and have positions for people with CS degrees. I'm directing these questions mainly at those who consider themselves entry level, but it applies to those who aren't as well.
I have no doubt that it is tough to come across jobs and land an interview, particularly when compared to a couple of years ago, when you could rely on jobs falling into your lap practically. Maybe in this type of market those who are the most agressive, not just the most qualified, are the ones who will do the best?
Axel Janssen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 08, 2001
Posts: 2164
That wasn't that clear to me: At least here in Germany in non-IT sectors it seems even worse!!!
My cousin who will finish architecture told me that she knows entry level architects who work without prospect for contribution for 3 month in an architects office (I would have killed the boss after 2 weeks being in a similar situation .
There are lots of horror-stories about the end of careers of bankers, managers and some such in the current edition of Spiegel news-mag.
The market for lawyers is absolutely over-crowded.
I know a doctor who calls himself lucky working > 60 hours in a hospital for $2000.
There is lots of panic in the newsgroups of my ex-university (even in business administration and finance).
This is so bad, that it must get better one day.
[ August 13, 2002: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
Dan Chisholm
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 02, 2002
Posts: 1865
Originally posted by Jason Menard:

I see no reason to rely on recruiters. Nor do I see any reason to rely on job ads. Have any of you guys been doing any cold calling? Have any of you been extensively networking? What about looking for related jobs such as help desk in order to get your foot in the door?

Another approach is to join Toastmasters and then do your networking at the meetings. If you are currently unemployed, then you should have all the time that you need for developing great presentations for the meetings.
If you want to develop additional experience in the industry, then try doing some open source work for Apache.
I do not advocate accepting IT jobs that you are over qualified for because you run the risk of branding yourself with that lesser position and you may have difficulty convincing future employers that you are qualified to do higher level work.


Dan Chisholm<br />SCJP 1.4<br /> <br /><a href="http://www.danchisholm.net/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Try my mock exam.</a>
 
 
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