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Graduating Seniors from College can not buy Java jobs!

prem saggar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 24, 2000
Posts: 66
Hi everyone. I'm graduating from college in December. I have been programming in java for about 2 years. I have a pretty big j2EE project under my belt (built a full blown student registration site). I'm also a SCJP. I live in New Jersey, and I am a citizen. I have been applying for jobs like crazy. All entry level stuff. Yet everyone has either never got back to me, or just said no thanks.
All my friends that are getting jobs (very rare) have got hardware or sales jobs. E.g., allot of my friends are in Linux and networking and the rest were in sales for IT stuff, well hopefully IT stuff.
So after applying for about 1 year straight I'm convinced that a graduating senior with some java behind him can not buy a job. I feel bad. Now is it that Java is saturated with great people? Are there just too many expierenced Java programmers for rookies to get jobs? I don't mind cheap labor. Just take me! I'll work like a dog! Or is the Java market declining all together? Should I switch to .Net or something or maybe go into Linux?
I really like java and I learned allot of it. My concepts are very clear. I hope I can get into this. I'm studying UML now, and I know sql + database hookups and the like. I wonder if I'll get a job at all!
My best guess is that getting a decent job out of college is impossible for at least the next 2 years while the economy is still terrible. So maybe I'll just sit home and work at staples till 2004 or 2005. Hey so should I get a+ certified for staples! Please help, I feel bad about the situation. Thanks guys, Prem. :roll:
Matt Kidd
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 17, 2002
Posts: 261
What about the career center?
Isn't your school getting bombarded by companies for the cheap (they can pay you less) and supposedly competent (you just finished school) labor? Mine did and its not even known as a big time tech school.
Consider joining some organizations that are LOCAL to your area. ACM is good also consider user groups in the areas you mentioned.
Also don't limit yourself to a Java job. Your main priority out of school should be *A* job in *YOUR* field.
Good luck.
Roseanne Zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 14, 2000
Posts: 1953
Java is not a religion; don't take it as one. It is just one programming language to get the job done. So does c/c++/vc++/pascal/vb/perl/ml/simscript/module3/gpsh/lisp/fortran/...
I've written all of above. If my boss ask me, I will write my code in C# tomorrow, and do it good too!
My daughter is writing from HDL/assembly/c/VC++ to VB at her current job at the same time. If it runs not fast enough, burn the algorithm directly into the semiconductor chips. Do whatever needed to get the job done...
And she also said, if she loses her job and could not find a new one, going back to work as a waitress is also acceptable. God forbid that will not happen!
However, it is good to have that attitude...
Got my point?
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Roseanne is correct. Take any programming job you can get hired for. As for as people who generally go with entry level employees, very large companies and the federal government might be worth a look.
Sean Sullivan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 09, 2001
Posts: 427
Advice:
1) find a local Java User Group
http://servlet.java.sun.com/jugs
2) If you don't have database programming skills,
start developing them.
3) Keep expanding your skills. One way to
do this is to start participating in an
open source Java project
Matt Kidd
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 17, 2002
Posts: 261
Originally posted by Sean Sullivan:
Advice:
2) If you don't have database programming skills,
start developing them.


Could you expand on this Sean?
Sean Sullivan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 09, 2001
Posts: 427
Database programming skills are important.
Most real-world applications require data to be stored and searched.
You should learn about: SQL, CRUD, transactions (rollbacks, commits), ACID properties, JDBC, Entity Beans, JDO, data access design patterns, and O-R mapping strategies.
Donald Nunn
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 11, 2000
Posts: 200
Hello, Prem. How are you? I wouldn't just focus on Java. Take a look at .NET. It's has a tremendous amount of potential and C# is great as well. I believe you mentioned that you had two years of Java then you should be in good shape with C# since the differences will be minor. Another thing to keep in mind is Microsoft's Visual Studio.Net is a wonderful environment to develop in.

Best Regards,
[ September 09, 2002: Message edited by: Evan Donaldson ]

<b>Donald Nunn</b><br />Sun Certified Programmer for the Java 2 Platform
Alan Phillips
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 13, 2002
Posts: 73
Hi Prem,
Why don't you contacting some major companies in your area and ask to meet with an IT manager. Tell them what you've done and ask for advice. Don't ask for work. Try to build some contacts, find out what's needed in the industry. Remember, a very few number of advertised positions are filled by people who hand in resumes. At my job, they just posted some big ads for new employees. Problem is that they actually aren't hiring for all the positions right away. They want to collect some resumes for when they need them, but probably will only fill 10%. This way it also looks like to company is expanding to shareholders and clients!! Just because somebody posts a want ad doesn't mean it actually exists!
If you get some of the skills an employer is looking for under your belt, contact them and say so! Also, try for other related jobs in IT, project management, design teams anything that can get you closer. I'm going to do the scjp next week and after that I'm on to .net. Since it's new, the certs might be more valuable.
Alan
stephen Kang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 26, 2002
Posts: 53
For the recent graduates
.NET (VB or C#) + XML + SQL + Databases( MS sql server 2000, Oracle, DB2)
I am not a fan of Microsoft products but it has definately more advantages for new graduates.
My memory of C++/Java is diminishing since i graduated this year. Maybe, you could pick up java later if the company really want you to code something, but i hadly believe it will happen for the new graduates. Though there are some differences between Java and C#, you could accomodate quickly when you need to code java.

I don't see the reason why you need to stick with j2ee if the market is already filled with old j2ee people. They r not going to buy your pure love of java.
Right now, IBM(java) + .NET(C#, vb) + XML are attractive to me. we will see who's the real survior.
prem saggar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 24, 2000
Posts: 66
Thanks guys for all your help. I'm still looking but things are still very bleak. I have about 2 months left till I graduate, and I can't say I have anything lined up or even close. But oh well. Let's see what happens. Is this .Net things for real? You think a college grad has better chances with .Net as opposed to Java? Let's consider 2 options
1) college grad with .Net and Java knowledge
2) college grad with Java knowledge and about 6 months expierence in open source projects or my own little software
which is better? I feel I can only get 1. Right now I'm studying UML and J2EE. I hoped that these would increase my stock. I definately think that UML has. What do you guys think? Thanks so much, Prem :roll:
Alan Phillips
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 13, 2002
Posts: 73
I don't know about .net. I was going to do the microsoft certs, but I can't find any jobs for .net in my area at all. Except for an idiot who wanted 5 years exp with .net!!! There's all sorts of mudslinging back and forth on different message boards, but I'm going to keep an eye on the job boards. XML+SQL+???. The ??? seems to be either .net or java. I don't know which way to go!!
Alan Phillips
SCJP 2
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
Any luck in the job search Prem?
Fred Grott
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 05, 2002
Posts: 346
Originally posted by prem saggar:
Hi everyone. I'm graduating from college in December. I have been programming in java for about 2 years. I have a pretty big j2EE project under my belt (built a full blown student registration site). I'm also a SCJP. I live in New Jersey, and I am a citizen. I have been applying for jobs like crazy. All entry level stuff. Yet everyone has either never got back to me, or just said no thanks.
All my friends that are getting jobs (very rare) have got hardware or sales jobs. E.g., allot of my friends are in Linux and networking and the rest were in sales for IT stuff, well hopefully IT stuff.
So after applying for about 1 year straight I'm convinced that a graduating senior with some java behind him can not buy a job. I feel bad. Now is it that Java is saturated with great people? Are there just too many expierenced Java programmers for rookies to get jobs? I don't mind cheap labor. Just take me! I'll work like a dog! Or is the Java market declining all together? Should I switch to .Net or something or maybe go into Linux?
I really like java and I learned allot of it. My concepts are very clear. I hope I can get into this. I'm studying UML now, and I know sql + database hookups and the like. I wonder if I'll get a job at all!
My best guess is that getting a decent job out of college is impossible for at least the next 2 years while the economy is still terrible. So maybe I'll just sit home and work at staples till 2004 or 2005. Hey so should I get a+ certified for staples! Please help, I feel bad about the situation. Thanks guys, Prem. :roll:

Prem both the FBI and CIA are looking for CS majors right now..Have you inquired about the applicaiton porceedure for both these agencies? They ar enot asking for exp..just the degree in CS


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Tim Holloway
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jun 25, 2001
Posts: 16228
    
  21

Don't feel bad. I have about 20 years experience in a multiplicity of languages and operating systems (including IBM mainframe). Not to mention serious time spent working with hardware, networking and real-time programming. The company I'd worked for for 13 years dumped me on the street 18 months ago and I'[m averaging 4 months between job interviews. What few allegedly serious ads I've seen in that time have been for an unbelievably detailed list of skills, few of which are considered optional or "can-learn" and almost always having at least one stinger in them that makes it highly improbable that they'll actually find anyone who can truthfully admit to matching the required set.
There are a couple of grim realities at work:
1. U.S. companies have by and large gone into complete IT paralysis. They're not hiring because they're just treading water until the economy recovers.
2. The salary widely quoted for a person with advanced J2EE skills in Ukraine, Byelorussia, Romania or India is $25,000. The number I've seen for a STARTING programmer in the U.S. or Britain is $38,000. Guess who gets the job? Virtually every big-name company in my town has stated that they intend to outsource and the number of the jobs quoted is in the hundreds (and we're not even THAT big a city!).
One area where you CAN'T usually hire foreign labor however is for civil service positions. While it's true that the present administration, like all proper conservative Republican ones would like to privatise all that kind of stuff, some awkward questions would be raised if it turned out that the control code for the latest Patriot antimissile system had been outsourced to a subsidiary of Bin Laden Industries (don't laugh - things like this actually do happen).
Civil Service programming isn't noted for high salaries - though all computer industry salaries are under attack right now anyway, but something like 55% of all people in those positions right now are coming up for retirement within 5 years. On the downside, you have to be willing to learn to run the convoluted mazes required to acquire (and endure) a governmnent job. Plus, I don't know that that a big enough pool if no one can get a job anywhere else.
If that doesn't suit, look around for the types of jobs that appeal to you that require an on-premises presence (e.g. MacDonald's counterperson or Wal-Mart greeter).
Unless and until outsourced labor becomes an impractical way for companies to reduce software costs, you'll find that even if you're really good at what you do, it won't do you any more good than if you were the best at building TV sets, running shoes or stuffed toy animals.


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