File APIs for Java Developers
Manipulate DOC, XLS, PPT, PDF and many others from your application.
http://aspose.com/file-tools
The moose likes Jobs Discussion and the fly likes Sun Certified Road Sweeper Big Moose Saloon
  Search | Java FAQ | Recent Topics | Flagged Topics | Hot Topics | Zero Replies
Register / Login


Win a copy of Android Security Essentials Live Lessons this week in the Android forum!
JavaRanch » Java Forums » Careers » Jobs Discussion
Bookmark "Sun Certified Road Sweeper" Watch "Sun Certified Road Sweeper" New topic
Author

Sun Certified Road Sweeper

Gerald Davis
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 872

I feel like a left over Java guru(Object-Orented-Purest). After a couple of weeks doing Open-Source projects I realise at my dismay that most Java Developers don't know nowt about Object Oriented Development first their obsession with primitive type made me want to herl. I had to refactor their code before I could do my stuff.

When I was doing my SCJD I wanted help using javadoc I asked a Java geek from my workplace he did not know how to use javadoc he also did not document he’s work. I was talking about my design with him referring to GOF design patterns again he did not know about them not even a factory-method.
This is pissing me of big time I am not finding it easy to find a job at the moment . one agency was only looking for oxford graduates. So I go to college expecting it to be as tough as nails and students to be smart asses but it isn’t the case. Many of the students ask me for help many are begging me to sit the modules I don’t have to complete .Surprisingly the module I have completed I am not even good at(web design and MS-Access) you should see some of the students web-site man! they totally suck like Crystal-Palace.
So I have landed myself in a nightmare scenario I rock but I cannot prove it to an employee. when I have to clean the car-park at work I feel so ashamed. while there are VB-Developer working upstairs that don’t know nowt.
You must think I am completly mum-an-dad but I had to get this of my chest.
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
There used to be this English rocker, Jethro Tull.
He had a song I really liked some of the words were - he was too old to rock-n-roll but he was too young to die...
Keep up that open source work.
Raees Uzhunnan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 15, 2002
Posts: 126
Good time is ahead maan. Don't worry
Raees


Sun Certified Enterprise Architect
Java Technology Blog
Abadula Joshi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 01, 2002
Posts: 126
you shouldn't be surprised, Gerald. This phenomenon is not uncommon in the society. Just be prepared and you will get the opportunity sooner or later.
james edwin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2001
Posts: 393
Hi guys,
Don't worry.I know it's very tough time going on.Let's not loose heart and blame any one.Let's concentrate on becoming good professionals and i am sure good time is heading for all of us in future.It's just a matter of time.
come on guys...let's prepare ourself in these tough time for good future.
I can fore see we have already crossed more than half way of dark tunnel(IT slow down)..it's just a matter of time.

Don't loose heart and concentrate on what you need.
Be positive .Don't loose hope.


Regards,
James
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
its easy to say be positive.
and more easy to think positive.
Yes there is always light in the end of dark tunnel..
After night, sun has to rise but at the same time you can not wait to ship to come to shore, so keep trying ..
All the best


"Thanks to Indian media who has over the period of time swiped out intellectual taste from mass Indian population." - Chetan Parekh
Kevin Thompson
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 04, 2001
Posts: 237
Gerald:
Programming ability is just like garage sales. One person's "trash" is somebody else's "treasure".
It is entirely possible that other people on your open source project are saying "Gerald's code makes us want to herl!".
In the real world actual programming ability does not count anyway. It is the "perception" of coding ability that counts. Management is completely incapable determining the difference between trash & treasure.
If they percive it to be treasure - then it is treasure.
Kevin Thompson
Edward Farrow
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 02, 2002
Posts: 32
if you are a good salesman and can sell yourself, you can succeed at anything in life no matter how good you are at that 'thing'. too bad in engineering they make you take physics and calculus instead of sales 101 and marketing 101.
[ September 26, 2002: Message edited by: Edward Farrow ]
Gerald Davis
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 872
Thanks, everybody for your feedback It was more positive then I expected.
Rufus BugleWeed
Didn’t Tull play at the Dominion Theatre some time ago? Just like Tull, I will do what I love whether I get paid it or not, until the day I drink tea with the worms.
RAEES UZHUNNAN
I hope that there are good times, so long as I stop listening to non-geeks that tell me that I being a programmer too difficult, I know that I am more then good enough. I even got some of that today from one of my workmates he said he had a big dream to become a firefighter, but he cannot wake up in the middle of the night to use his hose when ever he want to. I have always have my computer or a book and if I am on a date I always sneak a small java book(Elements of Java Style) down my pants.
Ravish Kumar
Thanks, I am with that positive stuff. I recommend reading a few motivation books (after checking out them at amazon reviews).
Kevin Thompson
I like your attitude, It is good to not be narrow minded you cannot say Ritz restaurant( luxury) is better then MacDonalds (cheap fast food) when some people prefer MacDonalds most of them are kids. My Code on the other hand is always good quality easy to understand, modify and all that object oriented stuff. I am the bees knees baby(English trans) , I am da man(American trans).
Edward Farrow
You are right; I don’t what to end up like a Betemax Video player. Unlike Betemax I don’t look good on paper. On paper, I am just a Forest Gump who never had an indoor job.
Thanks all
:roll:
peter parker
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 69
Gerald, I'm sure all the positive feedback is good to hear, but I feel what you need is practical advice. About a year ago I was out of work for 3 months. I busted my ass trying to find IT work, the market was just crap! Pure crap!! I sent out resumes, made phone calls, scheduled interviews all to no avail...Anyway, as I had just about given up and ran out of money I got a phone call for a $50K/yr job. Normally, I would have negotiated, but no chance as I was quite down on my luck. Anyway, what I did different was I sent an attachment in my email that contained code samples. That was it! Simple and effective!
It works becuase the other applicants are all merit/resume based, which as you stated can have varying skills. I was able to show actual coding skills, thus adding credability to my merit. Give it a try and see what happens.
-PP
Warren Geez
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 07, 2002
Posts: 3
I agree .. the market suckz rite now .. and the agencys just don't return ur calls .. 2 years ago i was on like �1000 a day .. i decided to stop working 15 months ago because the agencies took the piss and decided that i'm only worth �20 an hour saying that - competition is tight and they have literally thousands of candidates to put forward for a job .. so you have a choice .. get out of what we know and get into something new .... or .. ride with the wave and hope it picks up ...
it seems that certification and experience means nothing these days .. i have all sun exams from 1997 and recently recertified for J2EE (scea(1), SCJD 2, SCWCD) etc plus IBM, Weblogic, SilverStream, PowerBuilder - I even did the Learning tree exams (what a joke those were !) ... and the expense of taking exams .. and for wat ?? does any1 really look at it ? i mean .. they have given me more grief then anything else .. so like, u go for a job ... a permanent employee has to interview you .. they get pissed cos you are a consultant and have a pretty cv with lots of certifications on it .. so they decide to test u .. tax ur brain ... ask u a couple of complex questions .. u manage those without a sweat .. and so it goes on .. and on ... and on.... and on ... and like 1.5 hours later .. this loser is still asking me questions cos he wants to catch me out ? i mean like - hello !!! - get a life !!! i can't help it if you are so dumb man !!!
so it brings me back to this thread ... wats it all for .. the vb guys seem to have it good right now .. and correct me if i'm wrong .. but is vb OO yet , or O-based ? or is the nearest thing those guys got 2 objects is "dot-notation" ?? i don't know .... visual basic ? seems to b the in thing is wat i heard 4 years ago .. and now its still the same ... I have respect for C# mind you .. at least thats a proper programming language and looks similar to Smalltalk, C++, Java .. o - and lets not 4get VB ! ...
and now i've lost my train of thought ... so i'm just gonna exit here gracefully ... and agree at the beginning .. that the market sucks .... wats the point to certification .. unless you have personal reasons - unless u want to test urself and see if you can cut the mustard - but if its for other reasons - 4get it man .. don't waste ur dollarz !
Gerald Davis
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 872
Peter Parker I love you
Gerald Davis
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 872
If you are right Warren about the interview, I am going to get slortered. I don’t seem any smarter then Forest Gump and a black Forest at that. My quality of code, knowledge is untouchable by any masters degree student or VB developer. Nothing would please me more then to work with a boss who is an Object Oriented Purist I would love him to say to me ”Your codes fucking a blood mess, even my brand mother can do better then this tripe , your not working for @~{@+[ Microsoft !!”
Andre Mermegas
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 20, 2001
Posts: 158
a lot can be said for grammar and punctuation.


--=( Andre Mermegas )=--
Abadula Joshi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 01, 2002
Posts: 126
Gerald, just a piece of candid suggestion: if you believe your technical skill is so strong, then maybe you could evaluate your non-technical skills by yourself ? Maybe that played some kind of role in determining if employer wants to hire you ? I don't know. You know, people are people, sometimes you have to make them understand you, even they feel they can't understand you, no matter how pure you are OO oriented, you can't get the job. Give you another example -- when you communicate with some very high level executives, you need to use some words that Non OO people can understand you, you need to make them feel they know what you have accomplished, otherwise you may have done a lot but not being recognized.

but, keep confident and positive, you will find your dream job.
Abadula
SCJP/SCJD/SCWCD/SCEA
Mag Hoehme
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 07, 2002
Posts: 194
Hi Gerald,
I also found that certification does not count. It's not because of my certification that I got my job but rather that the manager found that I was the good for the job they had to offer.
Imagine you had a company of your own and you wanted to put up some staff - what would be your criteria for taking them on? Would you take the VB crack? Even if he had a first-rate certification?
I found the most important thing a developer can have these days is experience on the job. And if you are doing Open Source projects, you have plenty of experience!
In my interviews I found they are not so eager to find that I can answer all their questions. On the contrary: To many questions my answer was "no" - did you work with this technology? Have you ever done this or that?
Java is such a vast field that it is impossible that someone can answer all those questions with "yes, I did" or "yes, I know". I had the feeling they wanted to know whether I was able to solve their problems (no need to know the answer in advance).
You are a highly skilled person - now comes the more difficult part of the job, which is selling your skills.
Maybe this is only cold comfort: I believe that if I do not get a particular job, this job was not meant for me. I then try to comfort myself with telling me that I wouldn't have got along with the boss or something like this. And keep hoping for a better chance.
Good luck to you!


Mag
Christophe Lee
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 142
Originally posted by Gerald Davis:
I don’t seem any smarter then Forest Gump and a black Forest at that.

Besides your incredibly poor English skills, another possible reason for your unemployment could be your subtle racist remarks....
So before you critize companies, economies, recruiters, etc...first look at yourself with a discerning eye.
Chris Mathews
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 18, 2001
Posts: 2712
I don't think his remarks were intended to be racist, rather they were probably intended to be humorous.
Though you have a point about the English skills.
To Gerald:
Is English your native language? If so, then I suggest you become a bit more detailed-oriented in your writing (this coming from a guy whose posts are barely coherent sometimes...) since poor writing is a poor reflection on you.
The other thing that is going against you is your apparent arrogance. Tone it down a bit. I am sure there is a lot you have left to learn and until you get your feet wet your arrogance is just going to piss people off. Nobody wants to hire someone with a "better-than-thou-art" attitude.
Lastly, the term Object-Oriented Purist that you so proudly claim has negative connotations. Sometimes you have to drop the purity and just get the job done... that is where refactoring comes in to play.
Keep searching... you will get your break and if you are good you will shine. This industry is full of people that barely make it by and the good ones always stand out.
[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: Chris Mathews ]
Tom Salyers
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 30, 2001
Posts: 12
Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
There used to be this English rocker, Jethro Tull.

Small nitpick--the band is actually named Jethro Tull, after the agriculturalist. The lead singer is named Ian Anderson.
Jon McDonald
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 02, 2001
Posts: 167
Originally posted by Christophe Lee:

Besides your incredibly poor English skills, another possible reason for your unemployment could be your subtle racist remarks....
So before you critize companies, economies, recruiters, etc...first look at yourself with a discerning eye.

Christopher,
First:
I don't think he was making a derogatory comment about blacks. I think he is saying he is black.
Second:
As far as incrediblly poor English skills, where is that coming from? Sure, there were some commas and a few periods missing. However, this type of writing is fairly common considering the medium (a community bulletin board). In the stream-of-consciousness style of writing that manifests it self on internet, words and phrases are contracted, some punctuation is omitted and new punctuation is created . I don't see how anyone who speaks English as a first language would have any difficulty understanding Gerald's posts.
Thats all from me,
Jon
[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: Jon McDonald ]

SCJP<br/>
"I study politics and war that my sons may have the liberty to study mathematics and philosophy in order to give their children a right to study painting poetry and music."<br />--John Adams
Roseanne Zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 14, 2000
Posts: 1953
Gerald Davis
I know somebody made several excellent demo's with code on a CD to show the potential employer and successfully landed a job. Show your best stuff to them with a live presentation; bring your laptop, in case the interview room does not have a computer.
I did this once when I was out of school, a Fractal and Chaos Demo on a flopping disk with the speed exceeded any commercial product then. I also showed them an interesting graphical real-time live meter (thermo/car/etc.) demo, which I did on a part-time job. When I landed my current job, I showed them my interactive website with thousands members from all over the world.
Another thing is showing them some sense of humer will definitely help too. A little laugh on interview will not hurt.
Good luck!
Roseanne
Visit JavaChina on the web
[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Roseanne Zhang ]
Mag Hoehme
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 07, 2002
Posts: 194
also fine: get yourself a website and put there some expressive applets. That's how I landed a job! Or write technical papers and put them online. All of this is a good reference.
Fred Grott
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 05, 2002
Posts: 346
Originally posted by Gerald Davis:

I feel like a left over Java guru(Object-Orented-Purest). After a couple of weeks doing Open-Source projects I realise at my dismay that most Java Developers don't know nowt about Object Oriented Development first their obsession with primitive type made me want to herl. I had to refactor their code before I could do my stuff.

When I was doing my SCJD I wanted help using javadoc I asked a Java geek from my workplace he did not know how to use javadoc he also did not document he’s work. I was talking about my design with him referring to GOF design patterns again he did not know about them not even a factory-method.
This is pissing me of big time I am not finding it easy to find a job at the moment . one agency was only looking for oxford graduates. So I go to college expecting it to be as tough as nails and students to be smart asses but it isn’t the case. Many of the students ask me for help many are begging me to sit the modules I don’t have to complete .Surprisingly the module I have completed I am not even good at(web design and MS-Access) you should see some of the students web-site man! they totally suck like Crystal-Palace.
So I have landed myself in a nightmare scenario I rock but I cannot prove it to an employee. when I have to clean the car-park at work I feel so ashamed. while there are VB-Developer working upstairs that don’t know nowt.
You must think I am completly mum-an-dad but I had to get this of my chest.

Hello Gerald..
I woudl keep upwith what you are doign but add that the best way to keep your skills before the public that hires you is to start a weblog or blogs as they are called to talk aobut your java programming, show examples, do articles about coding and etc..
I am in the same boat as you..keep running inot people who don't jack *hit and their code sucks..
So Istarted a weblog to allow me to document my exporations into mible java programming..
So far I am almost finished with an iTV/JavaTV application that uses J2EE as well for a coding contest withprizes, I have one strong bite on a long term fulltime project-job using Java in the P2p space..and some inteerest from Nokia in porting over one of my current in development applications..
This is where issues like outsourcing sometimes fail because university grads from any country are not trained on quality java code testing or design..
Plus to doign ablog or weblog allows you to keep up new Java technology as well like Aspec Oriented Programming for one..
Basically by doing this your are treating your code writing and rsearch that you currently do for your open source project as the ultimate resume and press relations strategy..

Fess for weblogs and blogs..some are free at this time limited functionality but enough for you to get started..Mine I was lucky enough to sign up at diaries.com when Adam Curry of MTV fame stil had open slots for free..
But if u do a google search you should find a site that hsots them fro free for you to sign up..
Also there is a Javablog icon link on my site click on it to get a full listing of about 50 Java gurus writing about code, java, tech, and etc..


MobileBytes blog - Sharing Technology - My Programming Knols
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: Sun Certified Road Sweeper
 
Similar Threads
Newbie question on Axis
Advice to those planning to take the SCBCD
Need urgent guidance
vocabulary
Passing Scores and TIPS , LONG POST