This week's book giveaway is in the Other Open Source APIs forum. We're giving away four copies of Storm Applied and have Sean Allen, Peter Pathirana & Matthew Jankowski on-line! See this thread for details.
Hello to all. As part of my final year computing project I have to convince the client that java server-side tecnology is a big advantage to know nowadys in terms of employment prospects. I've been looking around the web to support this claim and I found some evidence but, so far I feel that my evidence is not really conclusive. For example, I went to www.monster.com and searched for jobs on asp,jsp,php etc and I found that MS technology is ahead of all the others. J2EE came next. So do you know any stats that show the popularity of all the web technologies in terms of employment advantages? I'm not looking for references to rants about why php is better than jsp or why .net kicks J2EE's butt. I'm looking for tables, graphs etc. I know you must know somthing. Please point me there. Thanks in advance.
In a time of drastic change it is the learners who inherit the future. The learned usually find themselves equipped to live in a world that no longer exists.<br />Eric Hoffer
Since a blind quadrapalegic rhesus monkey could "program" using ASP or PHP, if nothing else it's probably a pretty good bet that those who practice the dark arts of J2EE should generally remain better compensated. So if you define "employment prospects" to include compensation and not merely number of available positions, then you might take a look at the various salary surveys that litter the net. I would say though that I don't think you can make a blanket comparison between ASP or PHP and J2EE. J2EE is used for many things. ASP and PHP are used to make database driven web sites.
Ernest - if your research cannot support the claim you must defend, then perhaps the claim is flawed to begin with. But, since all statistics are lies anyway, you can concoct something. Search monster but filter your search with terms such as 'financial' or 'senior'. Or just search the NYC area on Dice - since so many financial companies are based in nyc, it will give you the false results you seek... For entry level jobs, Java is the worst bet. J2EE is such a sophisticated and complex technology, few companies are willing to employ a beginner (at least in this job market). For experienced software developers, particularly those with financial experience, Java is definitely king. [ November 04, 2002: Message edited by: John Fontana ]
Originally posted by Jason Menard: Since a blind quadrapalegic rhesus monkey could "program" using ASP or PHP, if nothing else it's probably a pretty good bet that those who practice the dark arts of J2EE should generally remain better compensated.
I apologize in advance to the Ranch for this. This is precisely the kind of elitist obnoxious crap that makes me ashamed to tell people that I'm a programmer. Ok, Jason, let's see the amazing projects you've "scripted, not programmed" with one hand while reading a Star Trek fanzine in your other. Oh, I'm sorry, Dark Arts is Star Wars, not Star Trek. Gee, I actually prefer using the simplest method to get a job done. I must be a friggin' quadrapalegic rhesus monkey. Ok, maybe your post was forgivable just for the monkey phrase. You're redeemed.
Originally posted by Jason Menard: Since a blind quadrapalegic rhesus monkey could "program" using ASP or PHP,...
Damn, now I know who I lost that last job to. And It hought they were kidding when they said he'd work for bananas.
Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Originally posted by John Fontana: This is precisely the kind of elitist obnoxious crap that makes me ashamed to tell people that I'm a programmer.
Ok then, which part of my statement did you disagree with? I stated in effect that since J2EE is more difficult and requires more knowledge than the others, those who use it will generally receive higher compensation than people who simply script ASP or PHP pages. I had gone on to state that I don't really think you can make blanket comparisons between J2EE, Perl, and ASP or PHP. However my original statement to the overall compensation stands, as was pointed out in the latest salary survey in Software Developer magazine (I think that's what it's called anyway). Also, do you deny that PHP for example, is designed to be incredibly easy to use and doesn't exactly require a CS degree to figure out? This ease of use means that PHP scripters can be found relatively cheap I would think.
Ok, Jason, let's see the amazing projects you've "scripted, not programmed" with one hand while reading a Star Trek fanzine in your other. Oh, I'm sorry, Dark Arts is Star Wars, not Star Trek.
I don't believe "dark arts" is a reference to either Star Trek or Star Wars, but you might know better than me I suppose. But since you seem to be asking, I have used Perl/CGI extensively (although not for a few years), ASP for one project, and dabbled a little in PHP.
Gee, I actually prefer using the simplest method to get a job done. I must be a friggin' quadrapalegic rhesus monkey.
Then you very well might be short-changing your customer. I prefer to use the best, most correct tool for the job, whatever that tool is, not merely the simplest. It would be "simplest" to build a house out of cardboard, but it certainly wouldn't be the best or most correct tool for the job, would it?
i have to agree with John here. it sure sounded like elitist crap to me. Java is a great language but that doesnt mean you need to use it for everything. if i can use a different language and satisfy the job specification in half the time i can either outbid you or make twice as much. by the way J2EE doesnt require a CS degree to figure out either, more elitist crap. [ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: Randall Twede ]
Originally posted by Randall Twede: if i can use a different language and satisfy the job specification in half the time i can either outbid you or make twice as much.
What I said was to use the right tool for the right job. If I'm a customer who is seeking a highly scalable solution that brings together many corporate resources, including legacy applications, and you tell me how you can make it work using PHP, I will probably not spend all that much time looking at your proposal. I'm sure you are aware that not everybody works on relatively small web based applications designed to run over the Internet.
by the way J2EE doesnt require a CS degree to figure out either, more elitist crap.
You are right, I don't think there is any programming language that requires a degree to figure out. Never said that there was. In fact I was a professional developer long before I had a degree, so I am personally very well aware of this. However if you wish to debate the relative merits of having an IT related degree when seeking employment within the industry in this day and age, this probably isn't the topic for it.
Joined: Feb 28, 2002
Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Ok then, which part of my statement did you disagree with? I stated in effect that since J2EE is more difficult and requires more knowledge than the others, those who use it will generally receive higher compensation than people who simply script ASP or PHP pages.
I disagreed with the way you said it. You didn't state it this way in your original post, you said "quadrapelegic rhesus monkey", etc. That is what transformed a possibly valid point into a snide elitist remark. But also very funny, in that it was blatantly cruel and rude. For that I can forgive it.
Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Originally posted by John Fontana: in that it was blatantly cruel and rude.
My appologies to any blind quadrapalegic rhesus monkeys who may have been offended by any comparisons with ASP and PHP programmers. I offer you a banana in friendship.
Joined: May 10, 2001
snide? maybe it was, I'll have to go look up snide and get back to you. cruel? just a little, but only to the monkeys elitist? yes, very. funny as hell? hell yes it was. I do most of work for a corporate intranet so being large and scalable is not really an issue, also, my boss is a big ASP person so that is what we use. As for being compared to a visually impaired, locomotively challenged primate - you can come over to my desk and see the complexity of the apps I've developed and judge for yourself, don't slip on the banana peels though Actually, ASP is very sraight-forward and quit easy to use as compared to J2EE. The complexity comes in trying to find a relevant help file in the MSDN - for that I think you need a PhD. I've not used PHP so can't make any judgement there, but for ASP Jason wasn't far off.
Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Originally posted by Dave Vick: The complexity comes in trying to find a relevant help file in the MSDN - for that I think you need a PhD.
You are so right on that one. I would cringe every time the prospect of having to find something on the MSDN came up. Ugh! But getting back to the question that was originally asked... A search on ASP related jobs and Java related jobs on the Washington Post's site returns the max of 500 hits for each search. So let's make the assumption that regardless of which technology offers precisely more jobs currently, there are sufficient numbers of positions for each available so that it shouldn't make much of a difference. So assuming there are a decent number of positions available for each (let's assume they are all legit), then I would think the next thing to look at might be salary. Let's be honest, when seeking employment prospects, salary is generally something we are interested in. Visual Studio Magazine offers a salary survey for Microsoft related development jobs. Similarly JavaPro Magazine offers a salary survey for Java related jobs. It seems to me that after reading both surveys that Java professionals are significantly better compensated than Microsoft professionals in most cases. So one possible conclusion you could draw when determing "employment prospects", depending on the value you place on salary, and assuming that the number of positions available for each technology is statistically close enough that it doesn't matter, is that Java technologies are the winner when looked at from this perspective.
I kind of liked the "blind quadrapalegic rhesus monkeys" comparison...
Actually, I'm kidding. But only partially. I remember back when I used Frontpage and could never understand why some people hand coded HTML. I called them snobs for mocking my beloved FrontPage. hint..hint..
could someone please explain the problem with being elitist? There are probably many taxi drivers, farmers, dare i say it performing monkeys who earn more than me. Not to mention PHP & ASP coders. I code J2EE because I believe it to be the best 'tool for the job'. I belive it to have a longer future than PHP/ASP, I believe that one day J2EE will dominate the world. Fire the LASER!!!
Originally posted by Jason Menard: Similarly JavaPro Magazine offers a salary survey for Java related jobs.
The JavaPro survey is worthless. It is not a scientific survey. The sample they used was so small that their error rate covers the entire salary range! They had a total of 715 respondents!!! And these were not 715 carefully and scientifically chosen java programmers. They were the 715 people wo happened to respond to their poll. And there was no attempt made to verify those numbers. You could have gone in and said your salary was $50,000 more than you actually make and they had no way to verify it. The giveaway is right on the first page of the survey. Does anyone really believe that Java programmers had an 11% jump in salary last year?
Arghhhhhh you guys! I go away for 1 second and all you do is start calling each other names. Where is the love? I originally made it clear that I did not want runts about why some technology is better than the other. Thanks for all those that made sensible comments. Maybe we should forget that this thread was ever posted so we do not pull each other's hair out.