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3 Indians = 4 Chinese = 5 Russians

Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
Don't shoot me, that's what the guy at Intel said.
Sorry you will have to register to read this rehash of the outsourcing and H1-B story.
Experts See Vulnerability in Outsourcing
Why a ruskie is so cheap?
trupti nigam
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 21, 2001
Posts: 613
Good article with lot of information..
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Why a ruskie is so cheap?
Because you can live (outside of Moscow anyway) for 100$/per month?


Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
John Lee
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 05, 2001
Posts: 2545
3 Indians = 4 Chinese = 5 Russians ?
In term of what?
Too bad I don't have an account with NYTimes, because I know, I won't read NYTimes again in the next 12 months.
del james
Greenhorn

Joined: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 3
I like the part where Intel's CTO says he is not concerned about quality or security of outsourced software as it is reviewed by their guys. Really?
Can't think of a more boring task which ultimately means it won't be done properly. How much does that guy earn for being stupid?
And I have to ask, if IT organisations in the Western world evolves to a situation where they only check code that is written elsewhere, the best developers will move on to a more interesting line of work. Hence there will be no-one with sufficient knowledge or experience of actual development to really check the quality or security of code being sent over.
I work in Government and things are a bit different. I have been assured that the elected politicians in my city will not allow outsourcing of work to Asia.
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
From the article:
"I can't cite any examples of this happening; but what that means is we haven't found any," said James Lewis, director of the technology program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.
This logic applies very well for Loch Ness lake Monster IMO.
Unless US defence forces are outsourcing development of their nuclear missiles technology to such countries, I don't see much of a reason for panic! Most of the outsourced work are generally maintenance, bug fixes, Transcripting etc anyway. Its true that extra care should be taken while developing/sharing source codes for mission critical applications, and also, you can not be sure that every project executed in the US would be 100% safe by default. 9/11 terrorists didn't fly across Atlantic to hit WTC - they planned and launched their attack from within.
[ January 07, 2003: Message edited by: Ashok Krishnan ]

[ flickr ]
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
Yeah, yeah, yeah...
Lots of people claimed the US system was inadequate for the screening of airline passengers and baggage. The airlines said, it's too expensive, the public won't tolerate it, and it's never been a problem before.
Do you see any similarities?
Yeah, yeah, yeah...
Timothy McVeigh was a homegrown boy.
No easy answers.
John Lee
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 05, 2001
Posts: 2545
I still didn't quite get it.
One thing I know, low labor cost is attractive to capital. And in the process of making labor-intense goods, labor force get trained and get ready to making high tech goods. I think perhaps US, Germany, Japan all went through the similar process.
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
It's been worse than labor cost in US. We have safety rules and environmental impact costs in the US.
Do the Indians and the Chinese go to great lengths to keep the air clean down wind from a steel mill?
John Lee
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 05, 2001
Posts: 2545
3 Indians = 4 Chinese = 5 Russians
It looks like color does matter!
Guennadiy VANIN
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 30, 2001
Posts: 898
Originally posted by Don Liu:
3 Indians = 4 Chinese = 5 Russians ?
In term of what?

I also do not want to subscribe but for more than 12 months.
Good question. But I am afraid nobody here could appreciate it or consider it as serious.
Guennadiy VANIN
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 30, 2001
Posts: 898
I have read it. AGAIN the USA search enemies abroad but "Dan Zadorozny, president of application services for EDS Solutions Consulting" has the Russian last name. Russians are already there and even are not hiding!

This is just bluff. I remember 2K bug paranoia: some people, I remember, even were buying bunkers, autonomous systems for houses, gas masks, etc. And what? Just too many people are interested in such paranoia.
We should rely more on hard-working programmers over the world.
Since the USA still maintain restrictions prohibiting (direct) selling to Russia the products and technologies of dual application, including PCs, UNIXes, strong encryption applications and permitting to sell MS Windows, MS Office and papers of Legal format,
So, Russian programmers should be using MS Word for writing the codes then printing it out to paper and sending containers with the code by diplomatic post to USA.
Paul Stevens
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 17, 2001
Posts: 2823
Originally posted by yidanneuG ninaV:
I have read it. AGAIN the USA search enemies abroad but "Dan Zadorozny, president of application services for EDS Solutions Consulting" has the Russian last name. Russians are already there and even are not hiding!

He was born and raised in the US. That makes him an American not a Russian.
walter wang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 02, 2001
Posts: 154
I think your conclusion is wrong.
you could not use specific case to draw conclusion
if you look the result of ACM International Collegiate Programming Contest 2002
this is even no single one india school...
how do you explain this result for this most famous programming contest?
I think
3 Indians just = 3 Indians just = 3 Indians
1. Shanghai JiaoTong University (China)
2. Massachusetts Institute of Technology (United States)
3. University of Waterloo (Canada)
4. Tsingua University (China)
5. Stanford University (United States)
6. Saratov State University (Russia)
7. Fudan University (China)
8. Duke University (United States)
9. Moscow State University (Russia)
10. Universidad de Buenos Aires (Argentina)3 Indians just = 3 Indians just = 3 Indians
[ January 10, 2003: Message edited by: walter wang ]
[ January 10, 2003: Message edited by: walter wang ]

public class Walter { public boolean is_Working_Now (boolean is_boss_Coming) { return is_boss_Coming; }
J. Yan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 14, 2002
Posts: 34
Actually what he really wanted to say is 1 American = 3 Indians = .....
No need to take seriously to this kind of article.
Originally posted by walter wang:
I dont think your conclusion is totally wrong.
you could not use specific case to draw conclusion
if you look the result of ACM International Collegiate Programming Contest 2002
this is even no single one india school...
how do you explain this result for this most famous programming contest?
I think
3 Indians just = 3 Indians just = 3 Indians
1. Shanghai JiaoTong University (China)
2. Massachusetts Institute of Technology (United States)
3. University of Waterloo (Canada)
4. Tsingua University (China)
5. Stanford University (United States)
6. Saratov State University (Russia)
7. Fudan University (China)
8. Duke University (United States)
9. Moscow State University (Russia)
10. Universidad de Buenos Aires (Argentina)3 Indians just = 3 Indians just = 3 Indians
[ January 10, 2003: Message edited by: walter wang ]
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
No need to take seriously to this kind of article.

If you can't outwork five hungry ruskies, you better take this article seriously. $100 a month will not cover heat and electric here.
Abadula Joshi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 01, 2002
Posts: 126
Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:

If you can't outwork five hungry ruskies, you better take this article seriously. $100 a month will not cover heat and electric here.

How do u like this ---
{60 yr old} = 1.5 {40 yr old} = 3 {22 yr old}
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

I can tell you without even looking at the article that it's just about money. You can get more Russian than Indian workers for a dollar.
It wouldn't surprise me in the least to hear a C-level officer say he's not all that worried about the quality of the work, either. Outside of certain mission-critical projects, there's an awful lot of lousy work you can do that is still good enough for many business and technical applications. Any number of drink-enough-to-be-honest executives will get around to saying that 90% of the time or so, "quality" is a buzzword that drives client and employees, not business. Both tend to bank on the idea of their quality without thinking about its actual impact on the business. So it's largely a good prod .
Think about it: when's the last time anyone said: "Wow, this is the best device driver I've ever seen written!" or "This servlet is just blowing me away with its quality!" For a lot of the contributions we all make on a daily basis, using quality as a measure is just too ephemeral.
In my whole work life, only one standard has truly stood out, and that is delivering on time. And even then, it's an expected thing.
So if an exec or two manages to convince themselves that quality is not a concern, where else does one go but quantity?
John Lee
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 05, 2001
Posts: 2545
When was the last time I read New York Times? I think it was ~5 years ago, when I sat in a small public library, waiting for somebody.
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
You look like you keep busy.
Would you say you were a well rounded person or are you a person tightly focused on IT?
I see the woman that's on top at HP got her undergraduate degree in something like medievel history. How does working for a person that does not know an immutable object from a sow's ear suit you?
Pradip Bhat
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 04, 2002
Posts: 149
by Wang
{
how do you explain this result for this most famous programming contest?
}
I think following equation would be more appropriate.
ACM World Final Contestants = Just ACM World Final contestants .


Yeshwantpur
Guennadiy VANIN
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 30, 2001
Posts: 898
Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:

If you can't outwork five hungry ruskies, you better take this article seriously. $100 a month will not cover heat and electric here.

I am surprised that no moderator did correct continuous grammatical errors!
"rus[s]kie" is written and pronounced with double "ss": it is the same in all known (and unknown) to me languages (Russian, Russos, Russe, Russisch, etc.) as well as in Russian.
You could certainly take more seriously this article after consideration the fact that the USA prefer overheating environment (and overspend the resources of all the planet), than signing Kyoto protocols like the rest of the world. There is no need to exaggerate in expenditures. Just try to moderate yourself in line withthe the rest of the world.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by yidanneuG ninaV:
You could certainly take more seriously this article after consideration the fact that the USA prefer overheating environment (and overspend the resources of all the planet), than signing Kyoto protocols like the rest of the world. There is no need to exaggerate in expenditures. Just try to moderate yourself in line withthe the rest of the world.

I think you maybe meant to direct these comments to this thread. :roll:
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
The bartender here ain't too good at grammar himself, especially when he's in a hurry or pissed.
I'm hoping he gives you the bum rush like Thomas Paul did in the JR forum.
If you are representative, I know why.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by yidanneuG ninaV:
Just try to moderate yourself in line withthe the rest of the world.
You mean like Portugal? Well, it's hotter here than in Portugal and it's colder too so that takes more heat and air conditioning. And we're bigger than Portugal so it takes more gas to get around. And we produce a lot more so we use more energy to produce things. The US isn't like the rest of the world so asking us to be like the rest of the world doesn't make much sense.


Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

I know I'm right when everyone ignores what I said.
Chris Mathews
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 18, 2001
Posts: 2712
Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
I know I'm right when everyone ignores what I said.

That's what I keep telling myself too. :roll:
Marilyn de Queiroz
Sheriff

Joined: Jul 22, 2000
Posts: 9046
    
  10
Originally posted by yidanneuG ninaV:
I am surprised that no moderator did correct continuous grammatical errors!

"rus[s]kie" is written and pronounced with double "ss": it is the same in all known (and unknown) to me languages (Russian, Russos, Russe, Russisch, etc.) as well as in Russian.


Bartenders/sheriffs almost never correct anyone's grammer/spelling. Only if they spell something wrong in their code. For example, typing randon() rather than random().


JavaBeginnersFaq
"Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, and today is a gift; that's why they call it the present." Eleanor Roosevelt
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Ha! I just noticed my alma mater in the list, number 6, right after Stanford.
Amittt Jain
Greenhorn

Joined: Jan 07, 2003
Posts: 5
I am not sure if one recognises the fact that "Its business which derives the nation not the nation which derives the business- to be practical"
The guys are just getting honest with their business- i dont find nything wrong here -
Dont mix Business with Nationality!
when people came to our country we welcome them- now its ur turn :-)
still- if u find urself on the loosing end - do something abt it - offer them cheaper solutions -
think innovative and think business!
No Offense, but Lets Be Honest- We Are All BusinessMen!!
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Amittt Jain:
still- if u find urself on the loosing end - do something abt it - offer them cheaper solutions -
think innovative and think business!
No Offense, but Lets Be Honest- We Are All BusinessMen!!


Well said. Unforutnately, most engineers are not businessmen. I've spent this past week at MIT teaching the engineering students that being a good engineer is not enough for a successful career/business. Most engineers can't see past their cubicle. Darwinism will ultimately change this, but probably not for a number of years.
--Mark
Guennadiy VANIN
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 30, 2001
Posts: 898
Originally posted as a first phrase of this thread:
"Don't shoot me, that's what the guy at Intel said."

ME TOO

Here are the titles of the articles from free democratic press I am forced to read here in Europe every day
About US-specific expenses:
The United States of America has gone mad
Not all have gone, some turn down US citizenship and travel to Iraq to join human shield from European citizens (Shutzschild)
Bhushan Jawle
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2001
Posts: 249
Have a look at this.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?artid=34701392
Pradip Bhat
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 04, 2002
Posts: 149
Bhushan,
Its their Entrance exam that sells,not the research/education .I don't know how did he derive that equation.
Aniruddha Mukhopadhyay
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 15, 2000
Posts: 59
Even AsiaWeek rated IIT's (Indian Institute of Technology) as top Science and Technology colleges of Asia. Out of top 10 in Asia, 5 are the 5 IIT's and other 5 are from South Korea (2), Japan (1), Taiwan (1) and Singapore (1).
The full list of 39 colleges rated are here:
http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/features/universities2000/scitech/sci.overall.html
[ January 18, 2003: Message edited by: aniruddha mukhopadhyay ]

Aniruddha
Bhushan Jawle
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2001
Posts: 249
For last two days I was checking out different American universities which offer MS in CS as I am planning to get my Masters degree.
I have changed my mind though. I think I will study for G.A.T.E and try to get into IIT instead when I go back to India, hope I succeed getting into (i)it :-)
Malhar Barai
Author
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 17, 2001
Posts: 399
As quoted by White House Official..
IIT = MIT + Harvard + Princeton
so does that make 3 Indians proud.


Malhar Barai
SOA & Java Book
John Seminall
Greenhorn

Joined: Jan 20, 2003
Posts: 4
i think it stinks that all the jobs are leaving. what are we all to do when programming pays 10 bucks an hour? get mba's?
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Malhar Barai:
As quoted by White House Official..
IIT = MIT + Harvard + Princeton
so does that make 3 Indians proud.

Not that I really care one way or another, but a Google search reveals no evidence of anything resembling such a quote. Perhaps you would care to source your information?
Aniruddha Mukhopadhyay
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 15, 2000
Posts: 59
Dear Jason,
I also could not locate the quote. Closest I could get was Bill Gates saying:
"IIT has certainly taken on a grand vision. Even as an incredibly world-class institution, it keeps challenging itself to renew itself to move to the forefront. And it's hard to think of anything like IIT anywhere in the world. It is a very unique institution."
Entire Text of Bill Gates speech at Cupertino, California on January 17, 2003 (India Institute of Technology 50th Anniversary Celebration)is here:
http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/speeches/2003/01-17iit.asp
And another one by Lesley Stahl in CBS News:
"I remember telling you in November that I had just returned from Bombay, India. So this story has taken two months. It's about a university that may be the hardest school in the world to get into. It's called IIT- Indian Institute of Technology. A stunning percentage of CEOs and innovators in the American high tech industry were graduated from IIT. "
Full text of above is here:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/09/48hours/main535897.shtml
I always thought my college was good, but not this .... show how little you know!!
[ January 25, 2003: Message edited by: aniruddha mukhopadhyay ]
 
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