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URL that states payscale for SCJP.

Unnsse Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 511
Check this out:
http://www.payscale.com/research/vid-3849
Tell me what fellow Java ranchers, think about this...
John Fontana
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2002
Posts: 235
Originally posted by Unnsse Khan:
Check this out:
http://www.payscale.com/research/vid-3849
Tell me what fellow Java ranchers, think about this...

Hmmmm...I really don't think much of it. It's really not more informative than a graph showing salaries for people with blonde hair or a certain height.
It's a lead to get you to buy their detailed report. It would be more telling to show a graph of all people who hold SCJP, and where they are at in their careers.
It would be helpful to see a report of all certifications, and what what percentage of each group actually found work by earning that certificate.


<a href="http://www.websiteandsound.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">www.websiteandsound.com</a><br />"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten."
Unnsse Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 511
John,
Where did you see the blonde people or height designation in the aforementioned URL?
Cheers,
John Fontana
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2002
Posts: 235
Originally posted by Unnsse Khan:
John,
Where did you see the blonde people or height designation in the aforementioned URL?
Cheers,

Where did I say that I did?
Unnsse Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 511
Oh... I am sorry about the miscommunication... You were making an analogy... I apologize for misinterpreting your statement. All apologies!
I have shown this URL, to several people (including a PH.D in Computer Science, Senior Architect) and most people agree with this URL.
I think that it breaks down to geographic region, what type of degrees the an individual has (whether bachelor's or master's), type/amount of work experience, etc.
Just getting the SCJP wouldn't necessarily increase your pay rate, but it will prove that one knows Java.
Peace out,
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
This looks next to useless, but maybe I'm missing something...
What are the salaries for non-SCJPs for comparison?
(Ok, maybe that's not important.)
The survey only has 49 entries, that doesn't seem statistically significant; think about differences in education, experience, other skill set, that doesn't seem like a valid sample size.
Speaking of statistics, where did those 49 come from? They seem to be asking people to sign up to share data; that alone is not a valid sampling method. So where does the data come form and what makes them think it's valid (accurate both in the technical sense as well as statistically).
--Mark
[ March 10, 2003: Message edited by: Mark Herschberg ]
Unnsse Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 511
Very good points, Mark!
I am still interested to see what other comments SCJP's and non-SCJPs have regarding this topic, pertaining to:
To certify or not certify?
Frank Thomas
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 10, 2003
Posts: 2
Interesting question on validity; I think the general point is that using the web for survey data collection is becoming increasingly accepted as a valuable method.
Validity is a matter of degree, it is not something that happens instantly. Can you get a "generally valid" conclusion from 49 data points? Probably yes; in this particular case -- having a SCJP will most likely be beneficial to your career and to your pay. How much it will benefit you will depend on other factors; I'm sure that's part of what the payscale people would like you to pay for.
Is there another survey out there for SCJPs that anyone thinks might be more valid?
Gregg Bolinger
GenRocket Founder
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 15286
    
    6

Originally posted by Unnsse Khan:
...(including a PH.D in Computer Science, Senior Architect)....

Did these people have their SCJP?
Originally posted by Unnsse Khan:
...but it will prove that one knows Java.

It proves you can pass the test. Period.
[ March 10, 2003: Message edited by: Gregg Bolinger ]

GenRocket - A Test Data Generation Platform
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Frank Thomas:
Interesting question on validity; I think the general point is that using the web for survey data collection is becoming increasingly accepted as a valuable method.

Yes and no. If a school wants to survey its students, it's great. If CNN wants to do some general survey, e.g. should there be another tax cut, they have a wide enough audiance that it's pretty accurate.
However, most sites simply do not have an unbiased enough sample source to be considered accurate, and consequently produce information with little or no value. Unfortunately, many people don't understand statistics and certainly not sampling theory. You can claim soemthing is valuable because people think it is so; however, I would argue the value of information is, in this case, intrinsic, not extrinsic.

Originally posted by Frank Thomas:
Validity is a matter of degree, it is not something that happens instantly. Can you get a "generally valid" conclusion from 49 data points? Probably yes

Like hell it is. Again, consider the other factors. What is 40 of those 49 people have less then 2 years experience? What if some kid filled out the survey, and got 12 of his friends at the same company to fill it out, too? With a sample that small and such a wide variety of other factors, it is quite likely the data contains too much noise to have any value.
--Mark
Frank Thomas
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 10, 2003
Posts: 2
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

Like hell it is. Again, consider the other factors. What is 40 of those 49 people have less then 2 years experience? What if some kid filled out the survey, and got 12 of his friends at the same company to fill it out, too? With a sample that small and such a wide variety of other factors, it is quite likely the data contains too much noise to have any value.
--Mark

Well, it seems like you are making a couple of different arguments. I claimed that you could get a valid result from 49 data points. You are saying maybe not, what if those particular data points are terrible? If they are terrible, with 12 people having 2 years' experience filling out the survey, then you have a point.
But the fact is, you don't know. So, you can cast aspersions, which is pretty easy. But you don't know one way or another. You are like a movie critic who hasn't watched the movie -- you saw the trailer and didn't like it. You still might be right, but you are saying on the face of it that it is crap, and I don't see how you can conclude this with confidence. I can't testify for the veracity of this particular sample myself, but your first argument was that 49 wasn't big enough, and I'm saying that it could be.
I just went to the site to see if there was any more info, here is a chart related to experience levels:
http://www.payscale.com/research/aid-7438/raname-SALARY/rid-66/fid-6886
Not a lot of data at each experience level, but you can see that it's not 40 people with 2 years of experience, either.
I'll ask the same question -- you don't like this set of information. What else do you like as a source of information on this topic? If the answer is "nothing", then fine, maybe there isn't anything tremendous out there in your opinion. How big a sample would make you comfortable? Would 200 work? 500?
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Frank Thomas:
But the fact is, you don't know. So, you can cast aspersions, which is pretty easy. But you don't know one way or another. You are like a movie critic who hasn't watched the movie -- you saw the trailer and didn't like it. You still might be right, but you are saying on the face of it that it is crap, and I don't see how you can conclude this with confidence. I can't testify for the veracity of this particular sample myself, but your first argument was that 49 wasn't big enough, and I'm saying that it could be.

Let's consider a Gallup poll. What do they do? Well, they have a large database of people to contact. They have very well studied algorithms to determine whom to call, and what to do when they are not available. They have decent polling procedures.
Now let's consider someone who stands in front of the $.99 cent store from 10am to 3pm taking the same poll. I'd argue it's worthless. Why? Well, because the sampling is extremely biased.
Now is it possible that the guy in front of the store got the same result as the gallup poll? Sure, it's possible, but it's unlikely. And if we're considering an issue like, say, a tax cut, a politician isn't going to listen to the guy who polled in front the the store, regardless of whether his numbers or right or wrong, because they see the likelyhood of a large sample bias.
Of course, the idea is that we don't know the right answer. The purpose of polling is to find it. We can never be sure that we got the "right" answer. The only thing we can do is put a confidence interval around the final data, based on statistics and sampling theory.
When I dismiss the data frm the polling site, what I'm really saying is "the error bars are so large as to make the results statisitically meaningless."
Can I cast aspiration on, Gallup poll data? Well, I can try, but they try to do a job covering all bases: age, location, income, education, race, etc. (How good depends on the particular details of the poll.)
I criticize the data based on the method. Now I don't know what the data is, but I do know the method, and it is not sound.
My comments about experience level were one example. I could make the same claim about years of experience in Java (e.g. maybe every respondant learned java 6 months ago).
You're right, I don't like this information. I don't have a better source, nor do I care to find one. Someone mentioned the site, and I basically gave my opinion of their data.
As a final note, I believe this site was found because someone wanted to see the financial benefits of an SCJP. To those who hope to use the numbers in this way... you can't (at least, not alone--maybe there's other data on the site I haven't seen). This data, by itself, is like asking all Democrats their opinion on taxes. It's only part of the picture. To truly see if an SCJP provides a financial benefit, you'd need to sample both people with it, and people without it. This data is only half the picture.
--Mark
Derek Grey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 09, 2002
Posts: 204
hey guys,
When one considers conducting a survey research methods suggests that one should make use of concepts called "Population" and "Sample Data Size".
I don't know the total number of SCJPs/JDs (SUN keeps them a secret I guess) but I do know that CCIE's in the world are about 8000 - 10000 (Check here) which means there should be "atleast" 50,000 SCJPs. In a population of 50,000 a sample size of 49 is nothing short of "GUESSING".
It's kind of taken for granted that when you are doing such things you have to consider a sample size of atleast 500. This is the minimum to even be qualified to be taken seriously. The more sample size you take the more closer you are to the exact result (which ofcourse can never be known unless sample size = population)
Ofcourse the next issue is "Are those 500 good enough or related to the research subject at all?"
-ST
 
 
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