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Java is lossing jobs to .net

Elizabeth King
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2002
Posts: 191
I have just heard that many Jsp applications
have been transferred to asp.net. I felt so
bad for Java. Can anyone confirm that?
Chris Mathews
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 18, 2001
Posts: 2712
Where did you hear this? I have had no such experiences and have not seen any credible sources to back up your statement.
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
The company where I work is carrying out its first .NET implementation. If it succeeds they plan to migrate to the .NET platform in a phased manner beginning by discarding mainframe applications first and then JAVA.
As bad this may sound, I hope the pilot implementation fails! :roll:


Commentary From the Sidelines of history
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Sriraj Rajaram:
The company where I work is carrying out its first .NET implementation. If it succeeds they plan to migrate to the .NET platform in a phased manner beginning by discarding mainframe applications first and then JAVA.
As bad this may sound, I hope the pilot implementation fails!

Perhaps you've got some additional information you didn't mention, but I'm getting the impression you hope it fails simply because .NET is not Java.
I'm a Java zealot. But I'm also the first to proclaim that Java is not the be all end all language. .NET has its place and it may be better for some applications/companies. Perhaps it's in your companies interest to switch.
Now granted, many pointy-haired bosses don't fully appreciate the costs of switching and long term impact, and so don't always make the best decisions; but that's no excuse for us to dismiss moves to positions other then Java, simply out of hand.
Again, maybe I read too much into your post, but there are plenty of other good languages aside from Java, .NET may be one of them.

--Mark
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Oops! Yes I am wishing that the .NET implementation fails. Not because of the differences in .NET and JAVA but merely because of the fact that I am yet to read up on the .NET platform (selfish.. I know )
Once I read up on .NET I'd like everyone to switch from JAVA to .NET because this would mean new projects and more money being spent on IT so more jobs.. another boom
Absolutely selfish!! But hey!! If only wishes were horses
John Fontana
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2002
Posts: 235
I did a few websites using .NET - as a Java programmer, it was a very enjoyable experience. C# is so similar to Java that it's easy to forget which language you are using. And Visual Studio.NET is a very easy to learn, stable IDE.
I don't know why Java programmers get their feathers ruffled at .NET. Your skills are instantly transferable to it, you can be productive in a matter of days.
Look on the bright side: with .NET development being so much simpler than J2EE, maybe fewer projects will need to be sent offshore to brainiacs halfway across the globe.


www.websiteandsound.com
"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten."
NetDust OY Jin
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 22, 2003
Posts: 21
I am studying java for a short time,but the .net is coming,i hope that the java will keep its position.
Elizabeth King
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2002
Posts: 191
Originally posted by Chris Mathews:
Where did you hear this? I have had no such experiences and have not seen any credible sources to back up your statement.

I heard this from a recuriter in a Java meeting
a few weeks ago. J2EE is too expensive while
.net comes with your window.
Chad McGowan
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 10, 2001
Posts: 265
If J2EE is replaced by .NET, it won't be because J2EE is too expensive... and .NET didn't come with my windows
John Fontana
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2002
Posts: 235
Originally posted by Chad McGowan:
If J2EE is replaced by .NET, it won't be because J2EE is too expensive... and .NET didn't come with my windows

J2EE is notoriously expensive. Perhaps needlessly, given products like JBoss, but for all those who go with Websphere/Weblogic, there is a steep difference in cost compared to IIS (which is a free, optional installation on any version of Windows).
The expense of J2EE is also increased by its complexity, even if open-source software is used.
nan sh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 05, 2001
Posts: 167
Originally posted by John Fontana:
[QB]
J2EE is notoriously expensive. Perhaps needlessly, given products like JBoss, but for all those who go with Websphere/Weblogic, there is a steep difference in cost compared to IIS (which is a free, optional installation on any version of Windows).
How can you compare JBoss, Websphere/Weblogic with IIS? this kind of comparision is nonsense. IIS has to be compared with Apatch, Asp.Net can be compared with tomcat, the thing you can compare with JBoss, Websphere or Weblogic in MicroSoft have to have COM+, Active Dictionary, Message and more, not the IIS only
The key issue about open-source and microsoft that I belive is not only about money .
Its about the controlling, some of my against microsoft clients think that MS don't give them any option, they acturally willing to pay a bit of money for options.
[ March 28, 2003: Message edited by: nan sh ]


Have you tried this Mock Exam Testing Engine yet?<br /><a href="http://www.mycgiserver.com/~nan111/index.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">www.mycgiserver.com/~nan111/index.html</a>
Chad McGowan
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 10, 2001
Posts: 265
Originally posted by John Fontana:

J2EE is notoriously expensive. Perhaps needlessly, given products like JBoss, but for all those who go with Websphere/Weblogic, there is a steep difference in cost compared to IIS (which is a free, optional installation on any version of Windows).
The expense of J2EE is also increased by its complexity, even if open-source software is used.

That's not a fair comparison. IIS on its own isn't a replacement for J2EE. .NET is certainly not free.
Yes, Weblogic and Websphere are very expensive, but there are many other options that are not.
I'm not saying that .NET is never the right solution. For Microsoft shops, it would make sense to use it... but I don't think companies are going to move existing j2ee apps to .NET just because j2ee is too expensive.
Greg Karpov
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 16, 2002
Posts: 24
Is there anything like *nix version of .net?Uh,no.. then .not
John Fontana
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2002
Posts: 235
Originally posted by nan sh:
Originally posted by John Fontana:
[QB]
How can you compare JBoss, Websphere/Weblogic with IIS? this kind of comparision is nonsense.
The key issue about open-source and microsoft that I belive is not only about money .
[ March 28, 2003: Message edited by: nan sh ]

Originally posted by Chad McGowan:

That's not a fair comparison. IIS on its own isn't a replacement for J2EE. .NET is certainly not free.
Yes, Weblogic and Websphere are very expensive, but there are many other options that are not.
I'm not saying that .NET is never the right solution. For Microsoft shops, it would make sense to use it... but I don't think companies are going to move existing j2ee apps to .NET just because j2ee is too expensive.

Originally posted by Greg Karpov:
Is there anything like *nix version of .net?Uh,no.. then .not

Nice going, guys. This is why you are baffled about companies migrating from Java to .NET. It is cheaper, because it is a much faster environment to develop in.
By expensive, I am not only referring to the cost of licensing software, but the entire overhead...It is fairly common knowledge that most web applications built with EJB could have been done with servlets/JSP (90%, by some accounts -- please don't ask me for url's and specific studies, it's been discussed ad nauseum on this board and many have referred to specific aricles already). Overkill, courtesy of smoke-and-mirrors consulting companies, and techies looking to bloat their resumes with the most expensive solution possible.
Almost all of my contracts in the past year have been ASP.NET, VB, old ASP, and SQL Server. For those who don't see the cost benefits over Java, I will underbid you and win your contracts.
BTW, there is a Linux version of .NET.
[ March 29, 2003: Message edited by: John Fontana ]
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by John Fontana:
It is fairly common knowledge that most web applications built with EJB could have been done with servlets/JSP (90%, by some accounts -- please don't ask me for url's and specific studies, it's been discussed ad nauseum on this board and many have referred to specific aricles already).

Um, I will ask... where on this board has it been discussed? Certainly not in this forum.
Now John, I've seen enough of your posts to know you don't tend to make up facts, but simply having something discussed does not make it true. I have no doubt that EJBs were oversold to some companies, but I doubt it was at a rate of 90%.
--Mark
[ March 29, 2003: Message edited by: Mark Herschberg ]
Chris Mathews
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 18, 2001
Posts: 2712
Originally posted by John Fontana:
BTW, there is a Linux version of .NET.

This doesn't mean .Net is portable across platforms.
The ECMA Specification for the .NET CLI covers only the base libraries. The really important APIs like ADO.NET, ASP.NET, WinForms, and .Net Remoting are not part of the ECMA Specification. This of course, leaves a lot of questions up in the air as to what is going to be truely "portable" across .Net implementations.
The Mono project has committed to implementing ADO.NET and a minimal form of ASP.NET for Apache. No .Net Remoting, Mono is favoring CORBA in this area. The Mono project has also given up on even attempting to implement WinForms since it is so tightly coupled with the Win32 API. Instead of using WinForms, Mono is committed to implementing a language binding for the Gtk+ GUI toolkit and others are working on a Qt GUI language binding.
It is also true that Microsoft is planning on updating the .NET VM and the C# language to include capabilities for Generics and other functionality. These additional capabilities are not part of the ECMA spec and Microsoft has not yet said whether it will send these specs to the ECMA. If it does, it's unknown when. In the mean time, Microsoft is free to include these capabilities in it's own .NET implementation. All other implementations, like the Mono Project, will either have to reverse engineer Microsoft's implementation or accept the incompatibility.
Lastly, let us not forget that Microsoft holds several key patents on .Net that they can enforce against projects such as Mono at anytime. Microsoft claim that they won't but... who really knows?
The point is, while it may be possible to program in .Net for Linux... this code will in all likelyhood not be portable to other .Net Platforms.
[ March 29, 2003: Message edited by: Chris Mathews ]
Sam Kebab
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 23, 2002
Posts: 104
It doesn't feel that way in my case Mary. I am doing consulting on the side and all three of my projects this year are java, java, and java.
Chad McGowan
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 10, 2001
Posts: 265
Originally posted by John Fontana:

Nice going, guys. This is why you are baffled about companies migrating from Java to .NET. It is cheaper, because it is a much faster environment to develop in.
By expensive, I am not only referring to the cost of licensing software, but the entire overhead...It is fairly common knowledge that most web applications built with EJB could have been done with servlets/JSP (90%, by some accounts -- please don't ask me for url's and specific studies, it's been discussed ad nauseum on this board and many have referred to specific aricles already). Overkill, courtesy of smoke-and-mirrors consulting companies, and techies looking to bloat their resumes with the most expensive solution possible.
Almost all of my contracts in the past year have been ASP.NET, VB, old ASP, and SQL Server. For those who don't see the cost benefits over Java, I will underbid you and win your contracts.
BTW, there is a Linux version of .NET.
[ March 29, 2003: Message edited by: John Fontana ]

John, I'm not baffled by companies migrating from Java to .NET, I just haven't seen evidence that it is happening. If what you are saying is true, we should be seeing more and more .NET opportunities and less J2EE jobs... I am seeing just the opposite.
Good for you if you can win contracts by going with Microsoft solutions, but I'm sure there are many other contractors who can make the same case for J2EE.
I have nothing against .NET... I have actually been looking for both J2EE and .NET jobs, but I see many more opportunites with J2EE.
Believe me, if I see that .NET will give me more opportunities, I'll join the .NET NUT Club too.
SJ Adnams
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 28, 2001
Posts: 925
I worked on this site:
http://www.investext.com/
which is running iPlanet.
I was then made redundant & the content moved into this site:
http://research.thomsonib.com/
which is .asp (so I guess .NET)
Hmmn...
John Fontana
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2002
Posts: 235
Originally posted by Simon Lee:

I was then made redundant & the content moved into this site:
http://research.thomsonib.com/
which is .asp (so I guess .NET)
Hmmn...

.NET files use the extension .aspx, so it looks like they used plain-old ASP.
The only advantage I see to this is that ASP programmers are much easier to find...
Elizabeth King
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2002
Posts: 191
Originally posted by Sam Kebab:
It doesn't feel that way in my case Mary. I am doing consulting on the side and all three of my projects this year are java, java, and java.

I hope your right, Sam. I'm a Java fan.
NetDust OY Jin
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 22, 2003
Posts: 21
I hope too.
Seid Myadiyev
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 02, 2002
Posts: 196
Yesterday I was assigned a new project, which is completely based on .NET (and, of course, I will be using VS.NET and C# with some XML/XSLT for my solution).
I am very interested to carry out this project as efficiently as it would be possible for me and then be able to make .NET vs. J2EE comparison based on my own experience.
I have always been a strong supporter of Java and continue to be him -- not only because of the Java language itself but also because of many other factors, such as:
--JSRs and Java Open Standards
--Portability
--J2ME and wireless Java standards
--Availability and accessibility of/to information on Java Technology in the form of Sun�s tutorial, interviews with Java creators (and many other things which I find essential for the clarity of vision of Java Developer and Architect)
--and even SCJD which is one of very few project-based programming assignments (if not the only one)
I think that, like other developers mentioned in this thread, as .NET Framework matures both .NET and Java will have their niche in the industry without being mutually exclusive.
Have you watched James Gosling�s presentation: �Systems! Not programs�?
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/webcasts/toronto/jgosling/jgosling.html
I found it to be a great source of inspiration for Java Developers, especially the part in which he describes Brazilian Healthcare System (which is built on J2EE)
Thanks!
+Seid


Seid Myadiyev<br />SCJP, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA-Part 1
stephen Kang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 26, 2002
Posts: 53
Take a look at this
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/toc/03_09/B382203linux.htm
I know this is not strictly relevant with J2EE vs .NET, but there is some corelationship.
I had some projects using VB.NET, ADO.NET, DCOM, Stored Procedure, MS version of DOM and XSL, and MS SQL Server 2000. It's quite easy for the developer to use .NET. BUT while i was doing .NET projects, I was sick and tired of looking up the sample code in MS library and excerpts, finally moved to Java. If you want to go with .NET, you have to completely dependent on every products in one specific vendors.
I don't doubt VB is king of client sides. But in the serverside i still doubt .NET can reach J2ee and its compliants except asp (not asp.net).
Is IIS application server to compare with weblogic/websphere? i have thought that's webserver you can compare with Apache.
Take a look at the other site about web-server survey. http://news.netcraft.com/
You can see Apache is uprising. Very few apache runs with windows, which can be run by .net, ms sql server, asp, etc.
I envision the company losing Unix market(guess who,,, it's sun) could heavily focused on software market(java/j2ee) later on, and the big guys like ibm, hp/compaq, and the intel could sell the hardware using enlightning cheap Linux server. Even Larry at Oracle have already moved the step to linux/java/j2ee.
I feel like .NET fails the market(I mean the server side, though that still can manage to cheap client side).
I guess it's time for Linux+java. Don't hesitate try to use .NET if you stil think worthwhile to try it. I would try dotGNU (not mono) then we will see whether C# library can be ported as J2EE compliant. Google, Amazon, Yahoo(freeBSD) all runs with linux (so i guess it must be J2EE compliants). Even Dell except NT webserver heavily uses linux with Oracle DBs.(they say NT webserver isn't broken, that's why they are just using win2000 server)). I wonder why money greedy Sun doesn give up solaris and focus on Java/J2ee products.
[ April 01, 2003: Message edited by: stephen Kang ]

Stephen Kang
Elizabeth King
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2002
Posts: 191
I was told that .net came with windows, but I
still do not understand it.
Does every Win2000 or winXP professional
contain IIS? Does IIS mean .net?
What about transactional and security services? What about clustering? Are they part of IIS?
Are they free of charge once you buy windows?
stephen Kang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 26, 2002
Posts: 53
No, you should buy .NET IDE (3-4 CDs) in order to use it. It's a visual studio.net IDE includes ASP.NET,ADO.NET, VB.NET,C#.NET,and enterprise services (trying to be EJB, but it uses stored procedure and lacks the means for the business logics).
For IIS, i am not sure how much you can deploy it, but I am able to download and install IIS on WinXP propessional. When you buy Windows 2000 server(license fee of single server is $1500 for 15 client machines), IIS comes together. $1000 something for MS SQL server 2000. how much exchange server? Who said it's cheap?
Server OS + MS SQL Server + Exchanger Server + VS.NET IDE
compare to that above,
Linux (sadly, Redhat AS 2.1 costs a lot now, but many company still want to use 7.3/8.0 with no cost) + PostgreSQL , DB2, or Oracle + sendmail (free) + JBoss, Websphere/Weblogic(including Apache). Linux is much more scalable and stable.
In terms of TOC, i don't think MS Solution is much cheaper than linux/java solution,yet. You should buy lots of lots of machines to deploy simple little things. In terms of maintenance cost, linux is more cheaper than win2k systems because you need to have small amount of skillful linux/unix admin guys to do their jobs.
I haven't heard many big companies seriously consider .NET as enterprise services. If you say ASP.NET is everything about .NET, then i don't have any thing to say.
The thing is linux/java solution has a variety you can choose JBoss(free), Apache umbrella(many companies love to use apache stuffs since it's standard), websphere/weblogic, and eclipse, netbeans developing tools, and DBs(db2,oracle).
[ April 01, 2003: Message edited by: stephen Kang ]
zack ma
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 07, 2002
Posts: 20
My stupid manager asked me to do a project using c#.
Found web form is a terrific discovery by Microsoft. But c# just the copy of java, it is framework does not work for large scale,distributed enterprise application.
Java,J2EE have a brilliant future.


SCJP,SCJD,SCEA I
Dorothy Finkel-Laverty
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 24, 2001
Posts: 51
Take a look at this:
http://www.microsoft-watch.com/article2/0,4248,989331,00.asp
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
As someone who developed a corporate portal in .NET I can tell you a little bit. .NET is not a replacement for J2EE. At best, it is a replacement for servlet/JSP. There is nothing in .NET that is a replacement for EJB or application servers. IIS is a web server/asp server it is not an application server. There is no built-in security management, transaction management, persistence management, or any of the other things that WebLogic/WebSphere bring to the table. Issues of scalability and load balancing are not as easy as they are with an app server.


Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
John Fontana
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2002
Posts: 235
.NET fits into the equation in that most companies do not need EJB's...but you end up with an EJB container whenever you buy any commercially-supported JSP/Servlet container, so may feel that to get the full value of the product they should be using EJB.
Few companies that just need JSP's use Tomcat...they will mostly go with Weblogic/Websphere/JRun, which all have EJB containers.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
If you need servlet/jsp and you don't want a free product because you want commercial support there are other choices. ServletExec is a great product that I have used. A license for more than 4 CPUs with support and upgrades is less than $5,000.
Matthew Phillips
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 09, 2001
Posts: 2676
Resin also has a servlet/jsp only version which is I remember correctly is around $500 per CPU.


Matthew Phillips
stephen Kang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 26, 2002
Posts: 53
I would be interested in developing TabletPC in windows systems if i really need to develop it. Not.NET. No thanks.
It seems sun realised not every company needs to deploy EJB containers, thus you can clearly see the chocie without using EJB in J2EE 1.4. That's improvement. Sometimes just using Stored Procedure will cost down.
Has anybody interested in developing Haskell or ML for the future?
stephen Kang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 26, 2002
Posts: 53
zack ma,
Does the web form copy the idea of Xform in W3C SPEC?
I am not sure where it comes from. Are they creating another vendor specific extension to probibit the standardization? They already gave up using their version of XDR stuffs.
educate me if i misunderstand it.
Glen Cai
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 24, 2002
Posts: 121
Does anyone know good .Net book?


"I, a universe of atoms, an atom in the universe." - Richard Feynman
Jim Baiter
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 05, 2001
Posts: 532
I don't see Java losing jobs to .Net, I see Java losing jobs to a combination of the economy and the desire of IT to buy rather than build.
Chad McGowan
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 10, 2001
Posts: 265
Just an update: I have had two interviews this week and both companies I talked to are in the process of replacing their iis/asp apps with jsp/servlets. One is using JRun, the other Websphere. I still see many more opportunities with java/j2ee than with .NET.
Encouraging signs!
 
wood burning stoves
 
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