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There will be no jobs in america for another 2 Years

Praveen Pranum
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 20, 2003
Posts: 54
Thats just my opinion. Post your opinion.
I really appreciate it thanks.
Chris Mathews
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 18, 2001
Posts: 2712
I'll go out on a limb and say that I am pretty sure there will be at least one job in America within the next two years...
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Hi,
The topic is too general, try to narrow it down. America is a large country. Jobs are always available. To do what? is another story.
I am thinking branch out to male escort service, but watching those WWF women. I am very much chicken out.
Regards,
MCao
Jane Somerfield
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 20, 2002
Posts: 193
Originally posted by Praveen Prav:
Thats just my opinion. Post your opinion.
I really appreciate it thanks.

That means Bush is over.
Arjun Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1874
Congressman wants outsourcing
US won't stop outsourcing to India: Congressman
IANS[ WEDNESDAY, MAY 28, 2003 02:27:18 PM ]
NEW DELHI: US companies will continue to outsource jobs to India to cut costs despite a move by some American states to curb flight of government contracts to firms in other countries, said Congressman Jay Inslee.
"People are worried about job security in the US and therefore it is not terribly surprising to find a few people who will oppose outsourcing to other countries," said Inslee, a member of the Democratic Advisory Group on hi-tech issues.
"Some people may support the promulgation of legislation to ban outsourcing but the majority of US industry and policymakers are not in support of creation of new trade barriers," Inslee, who is on a visit to India, said.
"I don't think it (a ban on outsourcing) is going to happen. We want to keep our doors open. I believe any effort to restrict market access will adversely impact the US economy. The policy of protectionism will not take us anywhere.
"For any economic growth to occur, a country needs to add more value to its products without increasing the cost and outsourcing to India helps US companies do exactly that," added the Congressman.
The Indian government has reacted sharply against four American states -- New Jersey, Maryland, Connecticut and Washington -- reportedly proposing to ban outsourcing of government contracts to companies outside the US.
Commerce Minister Arun Jaitley said the move was against the principle of market access and India was placed on "high moral ground" to take it up at the World Trade Organisation (WTO) negotiations.
The New Jersey Senate had unanimously cleared a Bill on December 16 preventing public enterprises in the state from outsourcing work, specifically to India. State Senator Shirley Turner had proposed the Bill.
The Bill prohibited public enterprises from shifting their call centres abroad for "cheap labour" with a view to creating more jobs for Americans as the unemployment rate in the US had soared.
The Bill was taken up for discussion by the Senate Committee in February this year but couldn't be passed and has now been put on hold. It is now likely to be discussed in the Senate in June.
Close on New Jersey's heels, other states like Washington and Connecticut are also reportedly mulling a ban on outsourcing contracts to India.
Inslee, a representative from the First Congressional district of Washington, however, said there was no move in his state to introduce a Bill that would make outsourcing difficult.
"Ours is a trade-oriented state and we will not take any step that goes against the principle of market access. Our ability to access other markets will diminish if we ourselves block access to the US market. Trade is a two-way street."
India's vast pool of English-speaking and cheaper manpower, educational system and training programmes have helped transform the country into a global outsourcing superpower over the last few years.
India's software exports grew by 29 per cent to $7.5 billion in the year to March 31, 2002, with some 60 per cent going to the US.
The country's rapidly growing business process outsourcing (BPO) industry has virtually turned it into an electronic housekeeper to the world, taking care of a host of routine activities for multinational giants.
More than a quarter of Fortune 500 companies like General Electric, American Express, British Airways, HSBC and Citibank are shifting their back office operations to India.
Inslee, who is a part of the Congressional Caucus on India and Indian Americans, said Indian technology companies and professionals in the US have played a very important role in the American economy.


MH
Carlisia Campos
sanitation engineer
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 22, 2001
Posts: 135
People like Mr. Inslee fail to see that without some type of barrier to outsourcing and companies exporting all of the jobs they can, soon the American population will have no buying power, since they have no jobs or they have to take ever less paying jobs to survive. At that point what good does it make to have access to other markets? To companies it makes no difference whatsoever: if they can't sell here, surely they will be able to sell in the region where they just helped increase the buying power. Sure, we can go to school and get qualified to do something else, but who's going to pay for my current student loan? Or perhaps I can go and get a job in India, would they allow me to do that? Isn't it free trade after all, so why not labor trade the other way around?


i blog here: carlisia.com
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Carlisia,
I've long been advising several of my American colleagues to consider getting their bachelors education in India as an international student. Its much much cheaper and the standard of education is somewhat similar. The difference is more pronounced at the Masters / PhD level (US ofcourse being superior).
Further, India is also very friendly towards westerners.. (like the proverbial Indian attitude - "West is Best!"). For a woman, I wouldnt dare say the same because India still has a long way to go in its safety record for women.
Many of the cities already have a significant Russian population and I hope India will be just as diverse (ethnically) as the US soon.


Commentary From the Sidelines of history
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Just a thought:
Imagine if a company offered Americans jobs in India. But the compensation package would be as follows:
1. The employee would be paid $30,000/- per annum in the US.
2. The employee would be paid Rs.1,000,000/- in India.
3. All accomodation and transport in India would be subsidized.
4. Assignment would be a span of 2 years and the employee could opt out or renew it after 2 years.
Would Americans accept it? I mean the benefit of this would be that the $30K would go entirely into savings. Rs.100000/- is a royal sum in India and people would be able to enjoy a high standard of living in India as they are in the US.
Any thoughts?
Arjun Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1874
Originally posted by Sriraj Rajaram:
[QB]I've long been advising several of my American colleagues to consider getting their bachelors education in India as an international student. Its much much cheaper and the standard of education is somewhat similar.

The word 'somewhat' makes alot of difference.Very few universities offer liberal and advanced courses which are helpful in real world.One of the reason for heavy unemployment is inferior courses in addition with overpopulated classes.There are good universities but competition is cutthroat and silly.I would say comapared to international levels, like Germany,Japan ,Indian engg. education is average.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Sriraj Rajaram:
Would Americans accept it? I mean the benefit of this would be that the $30K would go entirely into savings. Rs.100000/- is a royal sum in India and people would be able to enjoy a high standard of living in India as they are in the US.
Any thoughts?

I think a sufficient number of people would do this. Engineers and maintenance technicians working on military equipment have flocked to Saudi Arabia for years now because of the lucrative work, so I don't see where it would be any different with India.
Charles Hickman
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 20, 2003
Posts: 33
My friend who is a journalist for nytimes is in india. He is there on a long term project for 2 years.
He mentions that Indian men are egoists and introverts. They treat women like slaves.
People are very higly segregated with caste systems. And the society does not accept
women if they are single. Also he mentioned that People piss on the roads, cities are very unhygenic,
the bus stations stink, and that In one bus there will be 100 people. He was mentioning that there
will be a wait for any thing and everything. as he had to wait for 3 hours at a railway station
to get tickets to madras from hyderabad. And in madras it seems that the weather was too humid
and Even worse than houston. For instance look at the following sites about heat in india
that I just searched on the internet.

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/news/2002/2002-05-22-indiaheat.htm
http://www.sunnt.com/news/regional/andhra/andhra.asp?id=7574
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1991215.stm
http://www.usatoday.com/weather/news/2002/2002-05-16-india-heat.htm
http://www.newsindia-times.com/2002/05/31/tow18-top.html
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/may2002/indi-m22.shtml
http://www.newsindia-times.com/2002/05/31/tow18-top.html
http://www.andhranews.net/state/2002/may/12.asp
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2002523.stm
[ May 28, 2003: Message edited by: Charles Hickman ]
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Carlisia Campos:
People like Mr. Inslee fail to see that without some type of barrier to outsourcing and companies exporting all of the jobs they can, soon the American population will have no buying power, since they have no jobs or they have to take ever less paying jobs to survive.

Yeah, I mean what's next the auto-industry? Textiles? Plastics? Electronics?
Can you imagine what would happen if those got outsourced? (Here's a hint: look out your window.)
--Mark
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Charles Hickman:

He mentions that Indian men are egoists and introverts. They treat women like slaves.

Sure.. and Indian men regard one of their finest leaders as a woman.. Indira Gandhi. Sure.. and Indian men also worship over a thousand godesses. What you mention is more along the lines of female infanticide which exists in some remote rural areas. This practise exists because the people there are highly illiterate and think that having a son would be more beneficial as he would be able to bring in a higher income.
BTW.. what wrong with being an introvert??

People are very higly segregated with caste systems. And the society does not accept women if they are single.

Caste system exists in India in rural areas.. not in the towns and cities. And for the other remark..there is another term for it. Its called conservatism. India is still a very conservative society that is transforming itself to a liberal one.

He mentioned that People piss on the roads, cities are very unhygenic, the bus stations stink, and that In one bus there will be 100 people. He was mentioning that there will be a wait for any thing and everything. as he had to wait for 3 hours at a railway station to get tickets to madras from hyderabad.

What kind of a payscale is your friend on?? At Rs.1,000,000/- per annum you would never have to ride the bus or wait to buy a train ticket. You would own your own SUV at that income level and enjoy the same luxuries that you enjoy here. (minus the superfast highways)
Neverthless it is true that hygiene is low in many cities but its improving. But again on a payscale of Rs.1,000,000/- you wouldnt have to worry about such things.
BTW, I just remembered .. when the US govt. asked its citizens to leave India in wake of the Indo-Pak tensions didnt reports on all news channels mention that around 60000 Americans lived and worked in India..
If you want to find faults with India there are plenty and let me know.. I'll help you out too.. but if you want a job and a paycheck you'll need to get past your prejudices and presentiments.
Carlisia Campos
sanitation engineer
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 22, 2001
Posts: 135
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

Yeah, I mean what's next the auto-industry? Textiles? Plastics? Electronics?
Can you imagine what would happen if those got outsourced? (Here's a hint: look out your window.)
--Mark


Oh, geee, really? Your "point" is so illuminating Mark. Let's see if I comprehend... It has happened before and wracked the jobs of tons of people, so why am I not happy that is happening again? How un-American of me, to think that I can express my opinion and, oh, even oppose a trend that I think is damaging to this country's economy as a whole. And if you read my entire paragraph you should notice that my comment as whole is an entirely different one to begin with. Basically I am saying that:
1)The jobs that are being outsourced now are jobs that require higher education
It's too late for me to go get my bachelor's in India. However, for upcoming college students IT is going to be less of a consideration. It's possible that in the future the government will need to subsidize education (it's done in Europe and other places) in this field to attract people, and even so the brighter are not going to choose a field with limited options. At a time where technology propels the most important innovations and gives nations a competitive advantage like never before, we need to ask how heavily we want to rely on foreign scientists to create and develop our products;
2) As a principle, I don't agree with products-only trade agreements. If jobs are going elsewhere, I should also be able to.
There are many things that governments need to consider regulating whenever there is a shift in a economy. In the case of technology outsourcing, I think the most important are: 1) how much of it should be outsourced; 2) how fast.
I think competition is fine, but excuse me for thinking that it should be fair. People are bearly out of school and they are finding the jobs they are going for moved out of the country.
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Carlisia Campos:

How un-American of me, to think that I can express my opinion and, oh, even oppose a trend that I think is damaging to this country's economy as a whole.

I don't think anyone called oyu un-American for expressing an opinion. That's what makes JavaRanch, great, we all have opinions and we share them. :-)
Originally posted by Carlisia Campos:

1)The jobs that are being outsourced now are jobs that require higher education

I don't think this makes the argument any different. Outsourcing is outsourcing, regardless of how much education is involved. I don't feel that jobs requiring more education have more of a right to protection then other types of employment.

Originally posted by Carlisia Campos:

2) As a principle, I don't agree with products-only trade agreements. If jobs are going elsewhere, I should also be able to.

I would tend to agree with that in principle. What countries are prohibiting you from finding work there? Specifically, since jobs are going to India, which laws prevent you from working there?

Originally posted by Carlisia Campos:

I think competition is fine, but excuse me for thinking that it should be fair. People are bearly out of school and they are finding the jobs they are going for moved out of the country.

So what exactly is unfair? That you invested money in an education and are now being undercut? It's unfortunate, but I don't see it as unfair. Lot's of people bought internet stocks, which then tanked and they lost money. (We'll ignore cases where people were illegally mislead, because I doubt anyone made false promises to you about your college education.) Was that unfair? America gives you many promises, but a well-paying job is not one of them.
--Mark
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Hi,
Regarding specific industry, Auto and Electronics industries already done called OEM. Only the Defense related Electronics goods are done in US.
The uniqueness about Auto industry is that the vehicle has to assemble in US territory to benefit from the NAFTA which is import tax.
Electronics is very much Dock-To-Stock.
Regards,
MCao
Carlisia Campos
sanitation engineer
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 22, 2001
Posts: 135
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

So what exactly is unfair? That you invested money in an education and are now being undercut? It's unfortunate, but I don't see it as unfair. Lot's of people bought internet stocks, which then tanked and they lost money. (We'll ignore cases where people were illegally mislead, because I doubt anyone made false promises to you about your college education.) Was that unfair? America gives you many promises, but a well-paying job is not one of them.
--Mark


You are dissecting my comments too much, and as result the meaning of what I'm saying is getting lost. I'm not going to re-write what I just said. But to make it more clear, I think there is a higher penalty for people who work in jobs that require higher education and find their jobs outsourced, since in America we have to pay for our education and it's pretty expensive. Then, since technology workers need time and money to specialize in this field, we are going to have less and less qualified Americans Other than that, I think all types of outsourced should be phased out, to give a fair chance for people to adapt. Further, I think outsourcing too much technology is going to leave us at a disadvantage. I've already said all of this.
You don't have to agree with this, just as some people don't agree with the government regulating tobacco and alcohool consumption, speed limit, etc. Fortunately, we live in a democracy. I hope you understand this and stop trying to make me sound like a whiner.
[ May 28, 2003: Message edited by: Carlisia Campos ]
Charles Hickman
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 20, 2003
Posts: 33
I agree with miss Camposs on this.
After all soo much education spending. we are not asking to pay back the tution loans. All we lookforward to as just a work oportunity that will help in our lifes.
Do not turn me into a whiner either..I am usually quiet.
Charles
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Carlisia Campos:

I think there is a higher penalty for people who work in jobs that require higher education and find their jobs outsourced, since in America we have to pay for our education and it's pretty expensive.

Very true, but the rewards are also higher, because if your jobs aren't outsourced, you'll make more money then someone who didn't invest in education. It's basic market economics, you're earning a risk premium.
I've noticed that some people complain (and I'm ont necessarily refering to anyone on JavaRanch) because they never noticed the risks. The investor cries, "bubbles can burst?" as he curses his mutual fund for not yielding his expected 80% return. Seasoned investors simply accept the risk and say, "the market is a harsh mistress." Many engineers never saw the risk. Whereas 100 years of US markets show bulls and bears, and so is downturn is expected (even if disbelieved for a while by some), we've only seen inflows into US engineering labor markets. We've never seen our jobs shipped overseas. But just as they saavy investors said, "tech stocks are overpriced; dot coms are not special, the laws of economics apply to them and they will eventually pay," so too did some say, "engineers are nothing special, the laws of the labor market will not give them any safe harbor."
A CS major made more out of college then any other student. No one complained back then; no one asked if we were really treating employers fairly. "Free market demand is driving up salaries," they said. Well, when prices overinflate, consumers (in this case employers) will react. One option is to find a cheaper substitute (e.g. buy chicken instead of steak). In thise case, they found foreign markets instead of local ones. Perhaps if demand wasn't so great, and salaries weren't so high, then businesses wouldn't have looked for alternatives (if steak only goes up $.05 a pound, you'll probably still buy it), and foreign interests wouldn't have so aggressively assulted the US software labor market.
I honestly believe this is simple economics. It's too bad so many engineers, who often were just ants in the giant dot com boom, lived like grasshoppers and now can't weather the economic winter.
Originally posted by Carlisia Campos:
I hope you understand this and stop trying to make me sound like a whiner.

Don't take my replies personally, I'm just sarcastic. ;-)
--Mark
Carlisia Campos
sanitation engineer
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 22, 2001
Posts: 135
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

A CS major made more out of college then any other student. No one complained back then; no one asked if we were really treating employers fairly. "Free market demand is driving up salaries," they said. Well, when prices overinflate, consumers (in this case employers) will react. One option is to find a cheaper substitute (e.g. buy chicken instead of steak). In thise case, they found foreign markets instead of local ones. Perhaps if demand wasn't so great, and salaries weren't so high, then businesses wouldn't have looked for alternatives (if steak only goes up $.05 a pound, you'll probably still buy it), and foreign interests wouldn't have so aggressively assulted the US software labor market.
--Mark

You seem to think an individual has the same power as a company, and if so this is so flawed. Besides, so what if college grads were saying this or that. During the dot com period there were plenty of employers asking (and getting) higher quotes of HB1 visas and already exporting tech jobs, so forgive me for not thinking that companies are so powerless that I need to take sides with them.
You are right to observe that whatever situation we are in is a result of supply and demand, and it's a risky proposition to try to forecast where you are going to be better off. But just like the government increased the HB1 visas so as to make tech salaries not absurdely higher than they already were, they could do something on a Federal level to immitate what NJ and other states are doing so that there won't be a sudden massive unemployment and also lack of trained people in IT.
It is not because some people have the expectation that they should have jobs that we should advocate that they sut up and deal with it. The problem goes beyond the difference in the way we think people should handle the situation. You might say that they should live with the results of the risk they took, and that's fine, but I fail to see how you think a trend that moves a bunch of jobs out of a country can be good for that country and people should accept it, specially that is going to result in a lack of "in-house" technology knowledge.
As you said: "Perhaps if demand wasn't so great, and salaries weren't so high, then businesses wouldn't have looked for alternatives", perhaps if the government had invested in subsidizing the education of more American IT workers, we wouldn't be dealing with such a loss of employment and companies could have their labor expense at a reasonable level. You might be convinced that these are the law of the market and it's a done deal, but I believe that there is a lot that can be done to achieve a more balanced economical situation, and I can keep repeating this forever. Please don't take it personal.
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Carlisia Campos:

You seem to think an individual has the same power as a company

What can I say, I believe in the power of collective bargaining.

Originally posted by Carlisia Campos:

During the dot com period there were plenty of employers asking (and getting) higher quotes of HB1 visas and already exporting tech jobs, so forgive me for not thinking that companies are so powerless that I need to take sides with them.

Let's be clear. I am not siding with business over employees (not directly, anyway), but rather with consumers over business. Labor costs threatened economics growth. Importing H1Bs kept labor costs low. Now labor costs are low, outsourcing protection rules will raise software production costs. Don't get me wrong. I'm no fan of corporate America. But I think, as a whole, Americans will be better off with cheaper labor for software.
Originally posted by Carlisia Campos:

but I fail to see how you think a trend that moves a bunch of jobs out of a country can be good for that country and people should accept it, specially that is going to result in a lack of "in-house" technology knowledge.

If was great for the auto-industry... from a consumer perspective anyway. I get cheaper cars. How about electronics? Those are chaper, too. Cheaper labor produces chaper goods. Now its true that most software is not sold directly to consumers, aside from games, and operating systems, we don't buy too much. Most software is for business use. By lowering the cost of producing such software, we lower the cost of production. Will consumers get a one-to-one dollar for dollar savings? Of course it's not linear, but we will get savings as companies get cheaper software and/or can buy more software and be more productive.

Originally posted by Carlisia Campos:

perhaps if the government had invested in subsidizing the education of more American IT workers, we wouldn't be dealing with such a loss of employment and companies could have their labor expense at a reasonable level.

Thank God the government didn't try to do that! I don't think the government should be in the business of preparing for labor demand forecasts by subsidizing education. Let the free market decide. Its far more efficient.
--Mark
Michael Bronshteyn
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 26, 2002
Posts: 85
But I think, as a whole, Americans will be better off with cheaper labor for software.

So what do you ask your employer to pay you for your services? $15/hr or so? :-)


Michael
SCJP2
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Michael Bronshteyn:

So what do you ask your employer to pay you for your services? $15/hr or so? :-)

I ask them to pay me a lot, because I offer a lot. It works. I think I can offer things developers overseas cannot. Merely typing on a keyboard is not my competitive advantage.
--Mark
John Lee
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 05, 2001
Posts: 2545
Originally posted by Praveen Prav:
Thats just my opinion. Post your opinion.
I really appreciate it thanks.

you mean new jobs? what about the vacancy by retirement? whatever you mean, i am sure it should not be the case.
heath carlough
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 01, 2003
Posts: 34
But I thought the whole idea of Economic Growth was based on productivity gain (More output with the same or less input). If outsourcing to India or any other country for that matter helps save resources for companies in the US, then that means growth for them and the Economy on the whole. And when there is growth, there will also be jobe creation even though those new jobs might be in slightly different area.
And what are people in India going to spend that money on anyway, buying more buger for McDees and shoes from Nike...so it all comes back to the same source.
Its hard for someone who has lost a job or knows someone who has (isn't that most of us?) but in the longer run what is good for US enterprise is good for us.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by heath carlough:
And when there is growth, there will also be jobe creation even though those new jobs might be in slightly different area.
By "different area" do you mean India? In other words, what is good for "American" companies is not always what is good for American workers or for America. Companies are international, in case you haven't noticed, so putting American workers out of work to save some money is a good thing for the CEO who owns a house in Switzerland and pays his taxes to the Cayman Islands.


Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
By "different area" do you mean India?

I believe he means different industry. 70 years ago, the automotive industry employed lots of people on the assembly line. Some of these people lost their jobs to automation. Some lost their jobs to cheap labor. There are (proportionally) far fewer unskilled autoworkers then there used to be. What is there instead? Cheaper cars*, and/or more workers in different parts of the company; e.g. there are many more software engineers in GM then there was 40 years ago.
*Cheaper means vlue for real, inflation-adjusted dollars. Remember that if car A is higher quality and/or has more features then car B, at the same price, car A is cheaper.
--Mark
[ May 29, 2003: Message edited by: Mark Herschberg ]
Carlisia Campos
sanitation engineer
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 22, 2001
Posts: 135
Originally posted by heath carlough:
But I thought the whole idea of Economic Growth was based on productivity gain (More output with the same or less input). If outsourcing to India or any other country for that matter helps save resources for companies in the US, then that means growth for them and the Economy on the whole. And when there is growth, there will also be jobe creation even though those new jobs might be in slightly different area.
...
Its hard for someone who has lost a job or knows someone who has (isn't that most of us?) but in the longer run what is good for US enterprise is good for us.

I don't know about you but I usually speak out about some issues regardless if they directly afect me or not.
The idea of economic growth generating more jobs is correct. However, the most important measure of economic growth is GDP, and the growth of companies outside US does not count toward our GDP. Therefore, their growth does not translate into growth in the US economy.

I think I'll open pizza delivery shops when I become unemployed...
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Here is a simple explanation of what I see:
Today I have an account in Citibank of India. 5 years ago I couldnt even think of having an account in Citibank because I could not afford the high monthly fees that they charge. What enabled me to afford that fee all of a sudden? It was the employment caused by outsourcing. And where does that monthly fee of mine go?? To the US where it is kept in dollars to be spent either locally on some initiative of Citibank or otherwise. The key concept here is that by giving jobs overseas US businesses have been able to generate new customers. After all how many bank accounts are Americans (who already have a couple of bank accounts) going to open..
This shift has caused some instability here.. but this means that a period of stabilization is in the wings. That stabilization will come with some new initiative in technology or business which in turn will generate new employment here. With the standard of living rising in India people will immigrate less. This doesnt mean that US standard of living will drop because Indians in turn will be customers of US businesses.
5 years ago Indian companies didnt provide health insurance or medical insurance but today almost every major corporation does. And whom do they go to? New York Life or AIG or GE Insurance
5 years ago, Nike was affordable only by the ultra rich in India today it is available within the reach of the middle class.. because the salaries have grown.
Carlisia, you claim that growth is related to GDP.. fair enough. Then explain to me how the US GDP rose by 2.7% in recent months. Jobs are coming but they are in different sectors. Medical is the next big wave.. Biotech and gene research. These are yet to catch fire like IT did a few years ago.. but it will.
Anyway.. enough said.. I may be wrong because I am not an economist but this is a laymans perspective.
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Carlisia Campos:

However, the most important measure of economic growth is GDP, and the growth of companies outside US does not count toward our GDP.

It all depends on your accounting. Subsidiaries may or may not count depending on how the company is held. However, let's assume direct revenue is not counted. Consider a car that costs $20,000. If foreign parts and labor reduce the cost so that it can be sold for $15,000, the demand curve may be such that sales go up by more then 25%. In that case the GDP did increase, thanks to foreign productivity enhancements. And don't forget about exports. My guess is companies like Dell, IBM and Microsoft have seen their sales in India gain significantly in the last few years.
--Mark
heath carlough
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ANother thing to think about is who owns these companies that are the harbinger of all evil? American people do...so if these companies see cost saving and in turn higher profit margins, Americans as share holder see their valuation grow (wouldn't you like to see that happen after what's happened with these stocks recently).
OK so these are multinationals you say, a lot of people outside of the US also own part of these companies. Fair enough, but remember that America runs a high trade deficit, the only way to keep fueling our economy inspite of this deficit is by Foreign direct investment. The better our companies perform, the more willing invetors all over the world are to invest in our economy.
Mark Herschberg
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Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Sriraj Rajaram:

This shift has caused some instability here.. but this means that a period of stabilization is in the wings. That stabilization will come with some new initiative in technology or business which in turn will generate new employment here.

DO you realy think it'll be that stable. Granted, I know next to nothing about India's economic policy and policy makers. Nonetheless, I think India will face a very tricky situation. It has 750M people, and the tech boom can't be reaching more then 40-50M. Maybe it could get to 100M. (This is taking into account every company with direct significant benefits from IT.) Given how quickly the boom happened here, and how quickly it seem to be happening in India, it looks like the divide between rich and poor (or middle class and poor, depending on wealth distribution) may grow very wide very fast. That's a tricky situation for any country.
--Mark
Praveen Pranum
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New: Ban of H-1 B
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/xml/uncomp/articleshow?msid=47790165
Praveen Pranum
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http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/30/technology/30VISA.html
Jane Somerfield
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I could not access the links. Can you
post the articles?
Praveen Pranum
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Posts: 54
Richard L. Harbus for The New York Times
John Bauman, president of The Organization for the Rights of American Workers, which opposes a visa loophole for foreign technology workers.


Unfortunately posting that much of the article seems to violate the NYT's license agreement; so we needed to remove the text. I am told that it is free to register to their online service. Feel free to post a link to the article.
--Your Friendly Moderator

[ May 30, 2003: Message edited by: Mark Herschberg ]
Matt Cao
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Posts: 715
Hi Praveen,
I don't feel like register with NY Times in able to read the article. Since you already registered with them could you be a good ladd and post the article.
Regarding the H1B visa isssue quota, I think it just reflex the reality of employment available in US at the current time. The number will increase whenever there is a need.
Regarding India has been single out, I think because the approach taken by Indian are not that popular "pirate" is too harsh word.
In my current OEM company, I have to deal with clients American, Dutch, and Japanese, suppliers Chinese and Taiwanese. The supplier side do not have a big fuss with the rest of clients population because the suppliers have their own infrastructure already built. They already have been sold their products directly to American, Europe, and Japanese consumers, but not so well. They lack name recognition. Name recognition usually associates with marketing strategy and quality. The clients then propose to the suppliers, "Hey do our stuffs with our specs under our names and we will sell those stuffs and split the profit with you." As the trend go, the supplier handle quality and will handle R&D.
I have not hear any software from India except for Gupta aged ago.
I personally do not have any against Indian.
Thanks,
MCao
Praveen Pranum
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Posts: 54
US cuts down issuance of H-1B visas to foreign pros

Unfortunately posting that much of the article seems to violate the NYT's license agreement; so we needed to remove the text. I am told that it is free to register to their online service. Feel free to post a link to the article.
--Your Friendly Moderator

[ May 30, 2003: Message edited by: Mark Herschberg ]
Praveen Pranum
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Posts: 54
http://www.tcpalm.com/tcp/pj_edt_columnists/article/0,1651,TCP_1127_1985593,00.html
Praveen Pranum
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Joined: May 20, 2003
Posts: 54
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/xml/uncomp/articleshow?msid=47903695
 
Don't get me started about those stupid light bulbs.
 
subject: There will be no jobs in america for another 2 Years