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India plans to fight the BAN of outsourcing

Praveen Pranum
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 20, 2003
Posts: 54
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/xml/uncomp/articleshow?art_id=43796205
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
I'm going to move this to "Jobs Discussion".
Melissa Turner
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 01, 2003
Posts: 3
A paragraph from the article posted
"Consistent messaging with politicians, unions workers is a step in the right direction. The development in New Jersey may not result into any lasting legal measures that threaten the outsourcing. "
I guess some one here at home in US should scrutinize this whole outsourcing thing. Its getting a very critical issue.
Melissa
Nicholas Turner
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 24, 2003
Posts: 126
Maybe i'm alone on this but whats the big deal. I see none. Everyone has a chance to prove thier worth. You get what you pay for. Experience proved in engineering and will also in IT.
HP is supposedly high on the outsourcing yet thier hiring a lot of consultants right now.
Obviously if it was a threat it would have already happened and it just brings more competition for americans to be the best.
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Hi,
Yes, your POV is very valid. Outsourcing causes level of competition increase, you have to be the best in able to remain in the field. If you are just graduate from college, how do you gain experience if the employment opportunity for entry level is India and you are happens to be steak lover.
I believe outsourcing works for majority of us, if it is done in steps and gradually.
The reason companies are hurry into outsourcing because of the elongate recession. The executives want to earn their income and stocks, they have to resolve the problem through outsourcing to improve companies stocks and attract investors. The ultimate goal is fatten their porfolio. Off course, who can blame them. But the way they handle outsourcing is terrible causing too side effects.
Regards,
MCao
Tony Evans
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 29, 2002
Posts: 556
There is no real competition, how can you compete with someone who earns the same as the minimum wage in this country.
There was a good article in the Daily Telegraph that covered this; Indian contractors are not being brought over to Britain because they are cheaper. No the reason they are being brought over is to gain experience in the latest technology prior to that department or project being shifted back to India.
There is no competition. The decision has been made. Yes there will still be a need for homegrown developers but only until the Indian or other nationalities have been fully trained up.
You look at any software house in London; I have been to a few the majority of workers are from the Indian sub continent over here for training and experience. In fact many are at graduate level. The same is happening with accountancies firms, financial services. In fact the Management quoted stated that India will become the global office just as China will become the global manufacturer.
What we will become I am not sure, a nation of sales man and consultants selling and consulting to each other.

Cheers Tony
Tim Holloway
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jun 25, 2001
Posts: 15641
    
  15

Originally posted by Tony Evans:
There is no real competition, how can you compete with someone who earns the same as the minimum wage in this country.Tony

Not "the same as". Less than. Even "the same as" would be competitive, in the sense that if you wanted to enjoy even fewer luxuries than someone in India does for that salary (home-grown commodities are cheaper over there, but imported items cost the same absolute amount - and therefore more relatively). And, of course, wanted to subject yourself to the insult of having aquired advanced training only to be paid burger-flipper wages.
But when the competing salary is actually illegal under local wage laws, there's no chance at all.
However, just in case you think that all is fat and happiness in India:
http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,59126,00.html
And this isn't the worst of it. Now African countries are starting to subcontract to Indian companies. Africa has a colonial legacy, just like India, and therefore English is widespread. And, while China and Romania may seem a threat, the #1 software skill to have is fluency in English, since that's the targer market's primary language.
The main thing that's kept Africa out of it so far is political instability and possibly an even worse electrical/telecom infrastructure than India (which has spent years building, even if it's still unavailable to many rural areas).
Please distiguish between "outsourcing" and "offshoring". I only use outsourcing these days to indicate the offloading of business where the business sense is in favor of not doing work internally. Outsourcing within a country keeps the financial assets (income spent, taxes, paid, etc.) within the country. Offshoring is the term I use when the work is moved to another location purely to take advantage of people whose financial value is lower.
Aside from the personal injury offshoring does me in the job market, it's exporting money and thus denying it to local businesses and tax agencies. If we could offer some product that would bring that money back, it would be fine, However, the whole basis for the offshoring thing is that the work recipients are getting less because they pay less for essentials. So there's not very much we can sell them to bring the money full circle. A typical gas-guzzling SUV from Detroit, for example, runs easily as much as twice the annual income of an advanced Indian Java programmer.


Customer surveys are for companies who didn't pay proper attention to begin with.
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Hi,
I think we very much aware the different between outsource and offshore. Outsource is nothing more than subcontract the internal works out. The word "outsourcing" is such a pain to mention nowaday because it engulfs the word "offshoring." Outsourcing is a small pieces of globalization.
I think it would take 50 years for the so-called globalization truely worked.
The f*** thing is the lacklustering of media covering. The general American public do not know and have third degrees treatment to their spouses or someone properly educated but could not land an offer comparative to the previous one in term of monetary reward and perks. The usual responding is: "it's OK, we are still in recession." The truth is isn't. It is deeper.
Regards,
MCao
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Tony Evans:
There is no real competition, how can you compete with someone who earns the same as the minimum wage in this country.

Yep, we're doomed! Doomed! It's a sheer miracle that any of us have jobs at all! (Sorry, I haven't realsed any sarcasm for a while. :-p )
Back to reality. Suppose you wanted to write a simple program like the Tower's of Hanoi. Line for line, the programmers in third world nations can do it cheaper. But economics teaches us that whe two different countries have differeing competitive advantages, they both benefit by trading with each other.
I suppose if you just wanted to sit in an office, get handed problems and write code, you are in trouble. Personally, the programming I like to do involves group interaction and is very customer focused. I do not believe that this is cost effective for most projects, as the communication pipe will be too narrow. (And those poor software developers in the third world nationals will feel at a disadvantage compared to those like yourself who have immediate access.)
In short, we all have own comparatives strengths and weakness. Some is inherent with in us; we tend to be better an analytical thinking then most people. Others are external, based on our geography, finances, situation, etc. I can be a damn good engineer, and a pretty poor artist. I choose to be an engineer. We must each find what our advantage is and leverage that.
--Mark
Menaka gangamavari
Greenhorn

Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 13
"Can 2 people accomplish more work than 1 person does. "
If the above statement is true in in relation to software development then there are more no: of of Engineers in India than america does. And so more work can be accomplished by india than american does. In fact India has more high tech Engineers than america does. But because of lots of offshoring from Europe, Australia and USA, India is becoming a power house thats a super power in Software Technology.
Its is disturbing trend for american, Europian and Australian IT workers who are loosing jobs because of offshore developments in india.
We have to see how america will compete to keep its No:1 technology position, despite hefty competition from devloping countries like india, in the software Technology.
JiaPei Jen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 19, 2000
Posts: 1309
The term is "comparative advantage" (not "competitive advantage") when economists talk about international trade.
Tony Evans
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 29, 2002
Posts: 556
Hi Mark Herschberg, thank you for replying to me. Don’t mind the sarcasm bit after 12 years in the Military I have seen the masters at work.
Ok lets start with this
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Yep, we're doomed! Doomed! It's a sheer miracle that any of us have jobs at all! (Sorry, I haven't realised any sarcasm for a while. :-p )
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
We are at the beginning of the outsourcing trend it is still in its infancy. The first attempts were not what we would call a qualified success. But if at first you don’t succeed try again.
We are at the second stage, where sub contractors are bought over here to develop there skills and gain experience in the industry.
Look at any job spec know and you will see that only senior developers and those with management experience are needed. They are needed to help guide the projects through the transition stage from semi to complete outsourcing. So yes there is still work for now.
Yes there will still be a need for those with developed business analyst skills , just as due to the current terrorist threat there will be a need for people with my skills.(I have left IT and gone back to work for the government).
But lets widen this argument I am not only talking about the IT industry, there are other industries other jobs that are leaving my country.
Call Centres.
Financial Services both front office and Back office applications. (in fact with these operations being moved to India the face to face business requirements gathering will be carried out in India).
Accountancies, a lot of accounting companies have moved there operations over to India. In fact If you lose your luggage on British Airways, the techies who track it down are in India. If your Dell computer has a problem, the techie who walks you through it is in Bangalore, India's Silicon Valley. Ernst & Young may be doing your company's tax returns here with Indian accountants. Indian software giants in Bangalore, like Wipro, Infosys and MindTree, now manage back-room operations --- accounting, inventory management, billing, accounts receivable, payrolls, credit card approvals --- for global firms like Nortel Networks, Reebok, Sony, American Express, HSBC and GE Capital.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
As for Some is inherent with in us; we tend to be better an analytical thinking then most people
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Yes in India and a lot cheaper
GE's biggest research center outside the US is in Bangalore, with 1,700 Indian engineers and scientists. The brain chip for every Nokia cellphone is designed in Bangalore..
Summery
I am not talking about a lot of, as I heard a IT recruitment agent call developers once a load of code monkeys. India and China with there huge advantage in labour costs are outstripping us in everything. Development, research, manufacturing and providing services.
All we have left that they need is the money which we are happily supplying them.
You have an advantage but a lot of your fellow country men don’t, and as for being a graduate with most graduate entry in India and China where will are future scientists and engineers gain there skills and experience.
I guess we can stay with reality tv Big Brother and Jerry Springer and be the worlds joke.
Cheers Tony
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Tony Evans:

Look at any job spec know and you will see that only senior developers and those with management experience are needed. They are needed to help guide the projects through the transition stage from semi to complete outsourcing. So yes there is still work for now.

Please tell me you're realize you're exxagerating. I've seen plenty of job specs for entry level jobs. I know plenty of kids hired right out of college. Heck, we just placed well over 100 sophmores in summer jobs. By percentage, far less of these jobs are posted to web sites, but they do exist, because people are being hired, even without extensive development or PM experience.
Originally posted by Tony Evans:

But lets widen this argument I am not only talking about the IT industry, there are other industries other jobs that are leaving my country.

And thank God for that! By outsourcing we get cheaper goods like cars, toys, electronics, etc. This is good for us. Heck, if we didn't outsource things, then we couldn't produce cheap mircochips in Asia, computers would be far more expensive, and people would be far less reluctant to make IT investments, decreasing the demand for software engineers!

Originally posted by Tony Evans:

India and China with there huge advantage in labour costs are outstripping us in everything. Development, research, manufacturing and providing services.
All we have left that they need is the money which we are happily supplying them.
You have an advantage but a lot of your fellow country men don’t, and as for being a graduate with most graduate entry in India and China where will are future scientists and engineers gain there skills and experience.

Personally I'll get concerned when I see their projected GDP and personal buying power outstrip mine. To date, the numbers don't suggest this happening.
Originally posted by JiaPei Jen:
The term is "comparative advantage" (not "competitive advantage") when economists talk about international trade.

You're right. I've been posting quickly lately while on the road at JavaOne.
--Mark
Mick Hanson
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 14, 2003
Posts: 1
This recent development is not encouraging..
US gives India assurance on outsourcing
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?artid=22887
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Hi Mick,
I see carrot and stick strategy.
Regards,
MCao
Stephen Pride
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 14, 2000
Posts: 121
I read an article a couple weeks back that says India is now getting overlooked by some companies in liue of countries that can hire for even smaller wages (I can't remember the examples the author gave right off hand, but most were from Asia - Uzbekistan? Thailand?).


SCJP
Derek Grey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 09, 2002
Posts: 204
I've been posting quickly lately while on the road at JavaOne.
Good Luck Mark...hope you have a great time.
Tony Evans
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 29, 2002
Posts: 556
And thank God for that! By outsourcing we get cheaper goods like cars, toys, electronics, etc. This is good for us.
Well those of us working.
Tony Evans
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 29, 2002
Posts: 556
No I am not exaggerating, I am not sure what the situation is like in America but in Britain nearly all the jobs are for senior developers or team leaders. You may be lucky to get maybe one or two jobs asking for juniors developers, I have seen the odd one or two during the eight months I was unemployed.
It is a recognised problem; in fact there was a good article in computer weekly where it was acknowledged that nearly all those being trained by companies are from India.
One senior manager said that they were bringing them over so that they get the chance of foreign travel and get to gain experience.
In fact many of these new workers are not going through the same interview process.
The fact is that many British firms are not hiring home grown developers unless you have full experience listed in the job spec. At the same time they are bringing Indians over who do not have the experience so that they can be trained up.
This is moving the skill base over to India.
If we are losing are service base the way we are lost our manufacturing base what will the ordinary British worker do for work and where do they get the money to buy all these cheap goods.
It seems to me that those who welcome these new developments do so because there is an advantage in it for them or there company. And the rest of the country can go hang.
Maybe after serving in the forces for too long I suffer from patriotism where I do care about my countries future.
Cheers Tony
 
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