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Arrogant programmers and economic climate

Mike Dahmus
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 07, 2002
Posts: 29
After reading the last ten or so discussions, I'm ashamed to admit that I've started rooting for Mark Herschberg to be laid off; not because I wish him ill; but because his absolute certainty in the cyberlibertarian ideal is so noxiously wrong-headed.
I can't count for you the number of programmers I've talked to over the last ten years who started out with that same philosophy; and at some point realized that in the real world, it's not quite as simple and clean-cut. It's just a coincidence, I suppose, that many of these Young Sure They're Smarter Than Everybody Else Turks come to this sea-change about four months after being laid off in a poor economic climate.
Mark, there are plenty of smart people. If enough jobs are offshored; you will be competing with people just as smart as you for a vanishingly small pool of jobs. Eventually, as it has with every other obnoxiously sure guy I've ever met, you'll become the loser; and what's worse; you'll be out of work for a long time.
The true definition of intelligence, for me at least, is an ability to learn from other peoples' negative experience rather than having to wait for our own negative experience. A five-year-old can learn not to touch the stove after it burns him; but it takes an adult to know not to touch the stove without ever having been burned.
[ July 24, 2003: Message edited by: Mike Dahmus ]

-----Mike Dahmus mike@dahmus.org
Carlisia Campos
sanitation engineer
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 22, 2001
Posts: 135
You somewhat touched on the same think I was thinking. Mark has a lot of self-confidence, and this already places him at an amazing advantage. Plus, he's doing this, doing that other to position himself for great success by the time most technical jobs have exited the country. However, I don't see him accounting for the fact that by then, the business environment will have completely changed. As you point out, one of the things that we will see is that many really smart people who love programming will also be moving in on the available, non-programming related, turfs. Actually, I know people who are already moving into the upper layers of science (and to an extend, technology), to the fields that are now viewed as very complex and with a lot of problems to be solved, only because what was on the fringe of mainstream science/technology yesterday is already moving to be developed offshore. And with not as many engineers working in the US, management is also going to keep srinking, leaving these positions to the top MBA players from all over the world. So the bottom line is, I think, we are all doing our best to envision where the need for labor will be in the short future while keeping utilizing our skills to feed ourselves. And we are all, believe me, at risk of being completely outdated, out-competed, in a flash. If it bothers you, write to your congress representative for a chance to slow things down so you can better make a transition. Else, go on with what you're doing and either complain or blow your horn and say that's the best thing that could happen. Either way, things are most likely going to keep changing ever faster, and if it goes your way or not it will probably have more a consequence of (un)luck and circumstance than of your (in)ability for prediction.
In any case, I think a much more productive discussion would be what fields will be important in the future and why, and how can develop the technology/skills to support that progress. This, of course, if you are a techie and really want to work with software/technology. Else, everything is up for grabs and you can always re-educate yourself and get into something else. The good thing about the US is that you can most certainly get some type of job that can put food on the table while you do that. While these jobs might suck and might be difficult to find sometimes, nowhere else in the world it's as easy as here to do that.


i blog here: carlisia.com
Carlisia Campos
sanitation engineer
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 22, 2001
Posts: 135
I have to say one more thing: I personally don't think all tech jobs are going to be offshored. I think there is much to be done technologically speaking for the problems that we currently have. If the market picks up soon, and by soon I mean maybe in a two-year time frame, the need for developers will be great and development will be fast, so having programmers locally will be crucial. If the job market doesn't pick up in two years and in the mean time we can't figure out what's coming next, most of us techies will all be hit in the head if the next thing isn't, say Java.
Svetlana Koshkina
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: 108
Anyone who successfully dogded a few blows starts thinking about how smart he/she is. It's very natural.
The same with human genome people. I knew guys who got on top of human genome project, became amazingly arrogant (sometimes it's absolutely unbelievable) and today they are kicked off with a bad ticket and a LOT friendlier . Actually now you can talk with them almost as easy as with rest of people. So, it happens naturally, main thing not to get yourself in a position where you have to work hard on a job that you hate. Even if compensation is good but job sucks, you cannot consider yourself successfull. I know one such guy, he supposed to be getting handsome paycheck, but he is so depressed all the time. I like successful people as long as they don't show how they are much smarter than the next guy (for example, me). And how they are working harder than me, and all i hear that their work is much more difficult intellectually than mine. And they are heros and i need to sympathize with them, because my life is soo-o much easier. (???) I had one girlfriend like that. Oh God, what are they thinking? This giddiness from success comes from insecurity. I feel sad then.
Sorry, my message is a bit disjointed.
Jamie Robertson
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 09, 2001
Posts: 1879

Originally posted by Mike Dahmus:
After reading the last ten or so discussions, I'm ashamed to admit that I've started rooting for Mark Herschberg to be laid off; not because I wish him ill-will; but because his absolute certainty in the cyberlibertarian ideal is so noxiously wrong-headed.
I can't count for you the number of programmers I've talked to over the last ten years who started out with that same philosophy; and at some point realized that in the real world, it's not quite as simple and clean-cut. It's just a coincidence, I suppose, that many of these Young Sure They're Smarter Than Everybody Else Turks come to this sea-change about four months after being laid off in a poor economic climate.
Mark, there are plenty of smart people. If enough jobs are offshored; you will be competing with people just as smart as you for a vanishingly small pool of jobs. Eventually, as it has with every other obnoxiously sure guy I've ever met, you'll become the loser; and what's worse; you'll be out of work for a long time.
The true definition of intelligence, for me at least, is an ability to learn from other peoples' negative experience rather than having to wait for our own negative experience. A five-year-old can learn not to touch the stove after it burns him; but it takes an adult to know not to touch the stove without ever having been burned.

Mark is a consultant, he's out of work all the time. That's probably why he is confident in the whole finding a job process.
Tony Yan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 10, 2002
Posts: 170
I think ALMOST anyone can be laid off for whatever reason nowadays, just different on the likelihood. Saying people that ARE SMART AND YOUNG are less likely to be laid off is not true. Employment stability is a complicated thing. Smart people and/or successful ones tend to be on the top and earn more money, but there are less spots for them.
In US, I think (correct me if wrong) the only 99.99% secured jobs now and probably for the next 20-30 years are - Tenured Professors. (How many ranchers here are one of them? <1%?)
So if you are not one of them, regardless you are smart, dumb, arrogant or modest, you CAN BE unemployed, maybe for some stupid reasons you will never have tought of in your happy days. And the length of your unemployment, again, not in direct correlation to your own qualifications.


Tony Yan<br /> <br />IBM Certified Developer XML and Related Technology<br />Sun Certified Web Component Developer For J2EE Platform<br />Sun Certified Programmer For Java 2 Platform
Derek Grey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 09, 2002
Posts: 204
After reading the last ten or so discussions, I'm ashamed to admit that I've started rooting for Mark Herschberg to be laid off; not because I wish him ill-will; but because his absolute certainty in the cyberlibertarian ideal is so noxiously wrong-headed.

Hey,
Give him a break !!!....in these times of "Whiners" and "Sobbing people" it's nice to see someone who is confident of his abilities.
He has always said "Anyone can code" and in the process has made sure that he has updated himself (like design, planning etc.) from programming to what companies would demand in the future.
Michael Bronshteyn
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 26, 2002
Posts: 85
Hey San,
From your previous posts I can understand that you are in India.
Thus, enjoy your good job market and keep in mind that there are certain topics here, which are none of your business.
Cheers.
[ July 24, 2003: Message edited by: Michael Bronshteyn ]

Michael
SCJP2
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

Mike Dahmus: funny, funny stuff. I like the way you come out of the chute.
Having read Mark's patter for a while and met him, I can tell you he's the type to be fazed by what Mike D. has to say. Mark's got opinions, strong ones, and its that kind of conviction in your own vision that makes you useful as a consultant. What you don't see is the enormous capability for work that Mark puts behind his assertions. Say what you will; Mark walks the walk.
The lamentable thing is mistaking one person's conviction for absolutism, a sense that what is good in Mark's eyes is the way it is for everybody. I doubt Mark believes he has all the answers, but he has answers for the way he intends to do business.
It's just the form of the message. You're free to criticize it, agree with it, ignore it. If the suggestion comes along that Mark thinks he knows what's good for everybody, though, I'm thinking that suggestion says more about the speaker than it does about Mark's style.


Make visible what, without you, might perhaps never have been seen.
- Robert Bresson
Carlisia Campos
sanitation engineer
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 22, 2001
Posts: 135
I think it has been something other than the form of the message. The content I think gives out the impression that the rational goes like this:
If person A is smart, person is will adapt and be employed satisfactorily
thus, if person B does not have a job, much less a satisfactorily one, then person B must not be smart.
We don't know each other so we can only go by the impression that our words leave out. It seems that more than one person have gotten that impression from his words, even though he might or might not have spelled it out.
Other than that, his advices and confidence rubs off in a positive way. Power and good luck to him, and to all of us.
Mike Dahmus
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 07, 2002
Posts: 29
Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
What you don't see is the enormous capability for work that Mark puts behind his assertions. Say what you will; Mark walks the walk.

Oh, believe me, I've seen plenty of people like Mark. Great workers and smart guys who think that they're invulnerable. In fact, if you had talked to me when I started my career in the early 90s, I'd have sounded the same way; but I learned before my first (and only) layoff from observing others whose work I respected who got laid off before me. In other words, instead of immediately assuming that my coworkers and friends just weren't as smart as I had previously thought; I adjusted my expectations of our marketplace to more closely match reality.
Try spouting this rhetoric in Silicon Valley or Austin, and you'll be confronted by a lot of angry people who used to talk Mark's talk and walk Mark's walk; but now are walking to the unemployment office and talking a lot more sense.
[ July 24, 2003: Message edited by: Mike Dahmus ]
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

Originally posted by Mike Dahmus:

Try spouting this rhetoric in Silicon Valley or Austin, and you'll find a lot of people who used to talk Mark's talk and walk Mark's walk; but now are walking to the unemployment office and talking a lot more sense.

As a person who makes his living in the Silicon Valley, I take your point. Very intriguing to watch a whole mess of hotshots come and go on the winds of the high-dollar contracts, especially during the boom. I don't see those people around so much.
I do think the best way to bulletproof yourself is to stay out of sight from the gun, but the Valley wants to be Hollywood North. People want to drive rockets and take expensive vacations and generally look like they own la dolce vita.
Slow and steady is a bit more reliable, but I doubt it's nearly as much fun.
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

Originally posted by Carlisia Campos:

If person A is smart, person is will adapt and be employed satisfactorily
thus, if person B does not have a job, much less a satisfactorily one, then person B must not be smart.

That sounds like a variant of the MIT mantra to me. If that comes through in Mark's writing, he comes by it honestly.
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
I can't count for you the number of programmers I've talked to over the last ten years who started out with that same philosophy; and at some point realized that in the real world, it's not quite as simple and clean-cut.

Hear! Hear!
If only the world behaved a Mark thinks it does, it would be a better place. But good looks are the gold coin of human worth in the job market.
Personality and appearance beat performance, that's statement has been made and not been challenged in this forum.
Decide not to get old. What percentage of IT hiring directors what to hire somebody with 20 years experience?
Al Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
I suggest we ask a sheriff to rename this The Mark Herschberg bashing thread!
I like Mark, and he contributes a lot of valuable commentary. Mark also has a positive POV, which is rare enough with all of the long faces around here. The fact is that a can-do attitude usually works much better than the opposite. Problen is that it can tear you apart when things seriously go to shit, as they have recently.
Finally, may I observe that many of the people who habitually complain about the attitude of programmers come from the ranks who think themself above programming, that actually implementing systems well is mere donkey-work to be given to lowly-paid lackeys, not skilled (and highly-paid) craftsmen. In my opinion the people holding these opinions are more often the problem than the craftsmen!


SCJP1.4, SCWCD
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Hello,
In the line of defend Mark's job, I think Mark very intelligent. If he plays his cue cards well, he probably ends up as CTO or CIO. Mark's profile fitting with larger corporation executive profiles.
Mark has a habbit of dissect your comments out and turns around make you eat your words. I have seen so many lawyers in TV and in real life practicing it. How's much a lawyer making an hour? Executives do the same thing as I observed from company meetings.
Mark seems to gather information very quick for backing up his arguement. Mark views on the corporations is sound. Does he experienced every single one that I am not sure? But that make a great consultant, persuave the executives or management to see his POV instead the full time guys.
Mark has the tendency to downplay top tier school background for one advancement in life. I think he tries to be humble or just a characteristic flaw. A lot of parents generation to generation empty out their savings to send their best offsprings to top tier school for better chance of competition in life. I do not think all of those parents are naive. Of course, some of those offsprings cannot handle the pressures opt for alternative careers and wonder why after graduation he/she has to struggle with those lower tier school grad. I am not mentioned about those graduating from those top tier schools not necessary clever because those probably have parents working there. Also there are oddity ones, but school has to accept them because of PR and politic.
Mark has to compete with the best, if the offshoring keep continue at this rate, but he may elevate to safer rank, if he keep on publish a meaningful book(s). Overall, I think Mark preparing for his career in very young age or at least understanding the concept of work smart.
Regards,
MCao
[ July 24, 2003: Message edited by: Matt Cao ]
Bhushan Jawle
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2001
Posts: 249
I agree with Matt's opinion.
Hey Michael Bronshteyn, don't say that this is none of my business just because my name suggests I am an Indian. I am in Japan for most of the experience I have in IT and I was out of job for quite some time.
Mark's way of extracting intention from anybodys comments in really impressive and he can very well put his idea in different perspective to make himself clear.
Natalie Kopple
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 06, 2003
Posts: 325
===============================================
Mark seems to gather information very quick for backing up his arguement.
===============================================
Mark Herschberg gathers information fast to back up his arguments? I think that he gathers information fast to back up his nonsense!
Mark Herschberg does not know enough in the field of Economics but he likes to show off his knowledge in Economics. Do you talk back when a 5-year old child says something funny in front of you? Note that "no reply" does not mean I agree with you on what you say. And "no reply" does not mean that you make me eat my words or speechless either.
The following sentence is "not" aiming at Mark: Be aware that sometimes people stop talking to you is because they do not want to be down to your level.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Don't you all have anything better to do than to fixate on one person? If anyone feels they need a focus for any personal failures they may have experienced, I'm fairly certain Mark is not an appropriate target.
Even though it might not jive with your personal experience and you may find it distasteful, has anyone considered for a moment that Mark may be perfectly correct in his views? Just something to think about.
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Natalie Kopple:
.....[/QB]

This is ridiculous!! :roll: Kindly refrain from personal attacks on other members of the forum irrespective of how much you may disagree with them.


Commentary From the Sidelines of history
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

What Mike Dahmus does to open this topic is state his position and challenge Mark directly for the position he has taken. I think if all contributing posters stuck to this approach, stating a position candidly but with respect, we can avoid crossing the line from challenge to merely derisive criticism.
SJ Adnams
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 28, 2001
Posts: 925
this thread is funny
Mark Herschberg does not know enough in the field of Economics

Yea, thats true.
Arjun Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1874
So when this thread will be garbage collected?


MH
shay Aluko
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 01, 2002
Posts: 167
Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Don't you all have anything better to do than to fixate on one person? If anyone feels they need a focus for any personal failures they may have experienced, I'm fairly certain Mark is not an appropriate target.
Even though it might not jive with your personal experience and you may find it distasteful, has anyone considered for a moment that Mark may be perfectly correct in his views? Just something to think about.

Perhaps you do not understand the focus of this discussion. I doubt you even bothered to reflect on it appropriately.The Topic is not anything about Mark, the discussion centers on arrogant programmers and their like. Mark just happens to be a prime example.Whatever the "fixation" is , he brought it upon himself. This discussion is really about the larger issue arrogance and the feeling of entitlement that comes with never experiencing a job loss.
Derek Grey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 09, 2002
Posts: 204
Originally posted by Michael Bronshteyn:
Hey San,
From your previous posts I can understand that you are in India.
Thus, enjoy your good job market and keep in mind that there are certain topics here, which are none of your business.
Cheers.
[ July 24, 2003: Message edited by: Michael Bronshteyn ]

Hey Smart A$$,
Where did u get that from??
Yes, I am an Indian. Anyone could have guessed that, so no points awarded for that. But I have been in the USA for more than 4 years now. So u get negative points for that.
U seem to be stuck with your granpa's times. We live in a world economy and if u are on planet earth every topic here becomes your business. It's called "Global Economics".
Cheers to you too...
Tim Holloway
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jun 25, 2001
Posts: 16308
    
  22

Originally posted by San Tiruvan:

Hey,
Give him a break !!!....in these times of "Whiners" and "Sobbing people" it's nice to see someone who is confident of his abilities.

I'm a whining and sobbing person who's confident of my abilities. I'm also confident that I'm a techno-geek and not someone who can sell refrigerators to Eskimoes.
Though the REAL trick there is to sell them an extension cord to go with the refrigerator.


Customer surveys are for companies who didn't pay proper attention to begin with.
Al Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
Originally posted by Tim Holloway:

I'm a whining and sobbing person who's confident of my abilities. I'm also confident that I'm a techno-geek and not someone who can sell refrigerators to Eskimoes.
Though the REAL trick there is to sell them an extension cord to go with the refrigerator.

Hey, how did the interview go, Tim? I hope you did well.
After a week's worth of delays I ended up with an offer from the place I interviewed on Monday. Gonna have to tightem my belt, though. Better than nothing though. A LOT better than nothing!
Hope you do the same or better....
Al Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
Originally posted by Tim Holloway:

I'm a whining and sobbing person who's confident of my abilities. I'm also confident that I'm a techno-geek and not someone who can sell refrigerators to Eskimoes.
Though the REAL trick there is to sell them an extension cord to go with the refrigerator.

Hey, how did the interview go, Tim? I hope you did well.
After a week's worth of delays I ended up with an offer from the place I interviewed on Monday. Gonna have to tighten my belt, though. Better than nothing though. A LOT better than nothing!
Hope you do the same or better....
[ July 25, 2003: Message edited by: Alfred Neumann ]
Coco Lee
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 27, 2003
Posts: 8
There is a saying in Chinese and goes something like "you can chop the tallest weed, but you still got the weeds" or some crap like that. I think in English it's something like "hammer the longest nail".
Anyway, the point is, it's really sad when we take on a mob mentality and have to bash the one person who offers a different POV.
I disagree with Mark on a lot of things, but his words usually speak more about himself than someone else. If you take on more meaning behind the words, then I challenge you to look at yourself first because that's where the problem is.
I don't think Mark has ever directly attacked anyone and I think he deserves that respect in return.
The existence of this thread is a personal attack against Mark, which I feel is inappropriate.
Mike Dahmus
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 07, 2002
Posts: 29
Originally posted by Coco Lee:

I don't think Mark has ever directly attacked anyone and I think he deserves that respect in return.
The existence of this thread is a personal attack against Mark, which I feel is inappropriate.

In fact, responding to nearly every thread about employment with some variation of "I am smart and have never had trouble getting a job" and then following it up with "smart people never have trouble finding jobs" is, in case you didn't get it, effectively telling a vast percentage of the audience here that they are not smart.


Now, there's two possibilities.


1. Everybody here except for Mark is dumb.


2. Mark just hasn't learned the lesson yet; that smart people do indeed get laid off; that employers are quite often more like Dilbert's boss than we would like; that macroeconomics does actually matter; etc.


I had to learn this lesson myself; but I learned it before I pissed off too many of my coworkers and friends through that kind of arrogance. I honestly hope Mark takes this to heart and learns it too; and learns it before he's the victim of the job axe; because learning it at the unemployment line is a lot harder on the soul.
Svetlana Koshkina
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: 108
Originally posted by Coco Lee:


The existence of this thread is a personal attack against Mark, which I feel is inappropriate.

I don't see how he needs your help and our respect. It is obvious that he can take care of himself. I suggest you next time to support weaker person,who was forced "to eat his words".
Also, we are making group, opposition so to say. No matter how strong Mark is we'll beat him and it is what all darwinian economics is about which he advocates by the way. We'll show him...
On another hand,
Lets start thread how we love Mark and ourselves and everybody, especially human resources people and successful IT managers. I am, for example, ready to go to nursing school to be able to attend to all their needs. I revere Mark and anybody like him. I had my lesson. I never go out to compete because I am too stupid.
Al Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
Originally posted by Mike Dahmus:

In fact, responding to nearly every thread about employment with some variation of "I am smart and have never had trouble getting a job" and then following it up with "smart people never have trouble finding jobs" is, in case you didn't get it, effectively telling a vast percentage of the audience here that they are not smart.
Now, there's two possibilities.
1. Everybody here except for Mark is dumb.
2. Mark just hasn't learned the lesson yet; that smart people do indeed get laid off; that employers are quite often more like Dilbert's boss than we would like; that macroeconomics does actually matter; etc.
I had to learn this lesson myself; but I learned it before I pissed off too many of my coworkers and friends through that kind of arrogance. I honestly hope Mark takes this to heart and learns it too; and learns it before he's the victim of the job axe; because learning it at the unemployment line is a lot harder on the soul.

Mike, finding a job can amount to as little as being reasonably good and unreasonably flexible. I don't own a house which means that I can pick up stakes and move to a job, something which many people cannot do. If you lived in the Boston area during the DEC meltdown or in Silicon Valley today this may not be an option.
Being smart, good, and hard working does help one keep working. But the greatest thing is flexibility. Flexibility in where you work, what you can do and in what you will do!
I finally landed a job offer after 8 months out of work. There are people like Tim who haven't had an interview in that time. I live in London, which is unreasonably expensive but has the advantage of being a major IT center, so I've had a series of interviews. In February I landed a contract in Dubai which fell through because of the war. Lately I've been getting into the finals repeatedly so I knew it was just a matter of time. But I know a lot of good people who haven't been able to be as flexible.
Even so there are things most people can do. Try to look at your deficiencies and work out a plan to strengthen them. Last winter I was flubbing interviews and there seemed to be some doubt about my Java experience. I ended up taking my two certifications to address that problem. Which seems to have been successful. I've had to be flexible on salary, but there are two large strengths to my new employer. They are in the financial sector, and financial experience is a key to landing well-paying work in the longer term. They are also a very good Java shop and support their developers in developing their skill base.
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Although I've been quiet, I've been following this thread with great interest. :-) I planned on not responding for a few days, just to see where it goes. (Also, I was in Chicago on Friday at a job interview with Peak 6.)
I'm stepping in now just in my duties as a bartender to ask people to avoid personal attacks. Feel free to tear apart each other's arguments, and even use me as an example if you wish, but in general let the posters (meaning the peopler themselves) be. (And if a line was crossed wrt to me--although I'm not necessarily saying it was--well, I'm pretty thick skinned. :-)
OK, have at it... :-p

--Mark
Billy Tsai
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 23, 2003
Posts: 1304
I just want a job for god sake,I have been declined for many junior positions already and its making me becoming miserable,whats the point in going to primary school, intermediate school,high school then university and getting a tertiary degree and certs if can't even get some low level job.
whats the point of reading a book?
whats the point of having a book to exist? , even very experienced ppl need to read books to remeber or understand, even ppl with phD need to refer to books or Java API.
And right now I am seriously thinking about selling my monitor,table and computer to pay off my debt.
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Yeah, give the guy a break.

A single sentence can contain good advice, or it can distill a reality -- 'no man is an island", for example. But the reader of one-sentence truths does not escape his own limitations. Such a sentence might add no detail to his understanding of reality. The sentence delights him because it brings together in one economical expression what he already knows....
We make mistakes by overlooking details. We become wiser when we bind details and information together.

I am sure Mark is a really nice bloke.
Alfred, congratulations on your job. Which guerrilla tactic landed you that one?
Billy, I am so glad you are still with us. Though if you acquire many more certifications I may not be responsible for my actions.That is, I'd personally m***** you.(Just joking!). There was this guy on Brainbench who acquired something like 150 certifications. You are not trying to beat his record , are you ?
Selling the computer,monitor and table would free up some space and save on electricity bills. You might even acquire a social life.
Seriously I think if you REALLY want to go to University you'll find a way and not let something like a little bureaucracy stop you. Good luck with the job hunt in the meantime.
Life is not do A, then B, then C, then D, fortunately.It's more like do C, do E, do A, do C# . In fact if you set a tempo, a beat, life can be like music. There are dull moments, there are reflective moments , moments of anticipation and then the high moments before it all starts all over again. Finally , the grande finale ( thats when you die ).
PS . Your books would fetch you a neat sum.
regards
[ July 26, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Al Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
Alfred, congratulations on your job. Which guerrilla tactic landed you that one?

I'm not sure, HS. I ascribe it to three things. Networking through my JUG, good research, and preparing for the interview and the test.
The certifications definately helped a great deal in this case, because this company prefers certified people.
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Networking through my JUG

Was that how you found out about the job or through an agency ?
regards
Al Newman
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Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
Through an agency, HS. But I'd heard of them long before that. So I was interested, and tried to show it in the interview. I reviewed my SCJP notes before the second interview and (I think) aced the Java test. The interview itself was a little difficult.
What the hey, I'll take it. It's still a difficult market out there.
Billy Tsai
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Joined: May 23, 2003
Posts: 1304
I am sick of those job agencies they dont really know anything.
I already have a university degree, I already have the certs , I went to high and intermediate schools in this country for god sake. I got all the qualifications and skills why do they decline me wtf!
what the hell is the point of all doing all above then.
I am so sick of everything.
Natalie Kopple
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Joined: May 06, 2003
Posts: 325
Billy, I can feel your pain and desperation. Sometimes, life indeed does not treat us fairly. Nonetheless, lot of people have persevered through hardship. Keep yourself busy, read another IT book, go to a church and lay out your problems in front of God, ..... Remember, the darkest time of the day is the moment right before dawn. A good chance may be right at the corner.
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: Arrogant programmers and economic climate