File APIs for Java Developers
Manipulate DOC, XLS, PPT, PDF and many others from your application.
http://aspose.com/file-tools
The moose likes Jobs Discussion and the fly likes Jobs in Germany on Green Card? Big Moose Saloon
  Search | Java FAQ | Recent Topics | Flagged Topics | Hot Topics | Zero Replies
Register / Login
JavaRanch » Java Forums » Careers » Jobs Discussion
Bookmark "Jobs in Germany on Green Card?" Watch "Jobs in Germany on Green Card?" New topic
Author

Jobs in Germany on Green Card?

Vikrama Sanjeeva
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 02, 2001
Posts: 756
Hi guyz,
Does anyone has idea/information about Job offer by Germany on German Green Card to non-Europeans? How is IT job situation in Germany?
Bye,
Viki.


Count the flowers of your garden, NOT the leafs which falls away!
Prepare IBM Exam 340 by joining http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IBM340Exam/
Rory French
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 97
hi Vikrama
Yes, Germany currently has a green card scheme which is to remain in effect until at least 2004. It allows degreed IT specialists to work in Germany for an initial period of 3 years (this can be extended to 5 years after the 3 years have expired). I think initially provision was made for the issuing of 20,000 green cards when the scheme was implemented in 2000. However less than a quarter of these have been issued, and the largest proportion of these have been issued to Indian IT specialists.
I'm not sure why such a relatively small amount of visas have been issued, but I do think one of the reasons is language, despite promoters of the scheme often asserting that only a decent command of the English language is enough to get you a Visa. This may be so for some jobs, but in my experience, for the vast majority of vacancies posted by employers under this scheme, fluency in German has been a prerequisite.
Also, the German economy is in a bit of a state at the moment, with over 4 million people unemployed. I'm currently in Frankfurt am Main which only a couple of years ago was rumoured to be taking over from London as the financial/banking capital of Europe. No such luck. The large banks in this city are cutting jobs and freezing budgets in a big way. Getting a Java job here is damn near impossible and I think your chances are worse of you don't speak German.
Nevertheless, the authorities in Germany insist that there is still a shortage of certain IT skills e.g. IT Security, so while it may be more difficult to get a job here its apparently still possible.
below are some links to sites and articles you might find interesting/helpful :
read this
and this
and this
and this
and this
and if you browse the web you'll come up with plenty more info.
-Rory
[ July 31, 2003: Message edited by: Rory French ]
Tobias Becker
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 03, 2003
Posts: 4
Hi!
You can inform yourself about the job situation in Germany at e.g. www.jobpilot.co.uk
Choose "Europe" and "Germany" and language "German" and "English".
Jobpilot holds almost 80 % of all computer science jobs in Germany.
You can find out which jobs have been posted to the german work authorities at the url www.meinestadt.de Choose "Stellenmarkt" and enter your search criteria (e.g. "Java"). These are about 15% of the offered jobs.
These two are the main job forums for It-Jobs.
Hope this helps
good luck
Tobias


Dipl.-Inf. Tobias Becker
Vikrama Sanjeeva
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 02, 2001
Posts: 756
Hi,
Thanks Rory & Tobias. I have tried all the links, they are usefull. As Rory said, German language is prerequisite, what will be the situation for the one who knows English? Does he/she will not qualified for the job? Remember German Green Card scheme was initiated for non-Europeans, and therefore it is understood that a Green Card holder does not knows German language.
Tobias, I have searched as u mentioned. It returns very attractive results. By seeing result, it seems that there are still good/above average IT jobs in Germany. But is it fact?
Bye,
Viki.
[ July 31, 2003: Message edited by: Vikrama Sanjeeva ]
Vikrama Sanjeeva
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 02, 2001
Posts: 756
Hi,
More over: What is the average pay per year for Green Card candidate having Computer Engineering degree and couple of professional computer certifications? I heard that on *paper* it is different and actual pay which is in *your hand* is different in Germany?
Bye,
Viki.
Rory French
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 97
Thanks for those useful links Tobias. I wasn't aware of them before. It is encouraging to see that there are still quite a few jobs out there.
Viki, returning to the language issue. Its a simple case of the government taking note of a skills shortage, and taking action by trying to import those skills. On the other hand, many (probably most) companies will require German speakers because employees will need to operate in German speaking environments, which makes sense. For people who only speak English the best bet is to target the larger, multinational companies where English is more dominant - for example in some of the vacancies posted by SAP (on the links provided by Tobias) I noticed German is not always a prerequisite, although a willingness to learn German is sometimes necessary.
As for salaries, I think they are pretty much on a par with the rest of Europe and the UK. But remember, taxes are very high in Germany. They can be around 50% for a single person with no dependants. Employees MUST also pay contributions to health insurance and government pensions (also expensive). So you'd be fortunate if you could hang on to half of your salary.
-Rory
Tobias Becker
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 03, 2003
Posts: 4
Hi you two!
As far as I can see, there are jobs in Germany. But there are also many people who are looking for a job. You should meet exactly the requirements in the offer. Here in Germany the recruiting strategy is in general to set up a maximum profile for a virtual candidate and publish it in the job offer. Those meeting the requirements best will be invited.
Normally they want you to prove experience with CONCRETE systems and not knowledge of abstract concepts. E.g. saying I worked with Java and Websphere for 3 years in projects A and B will be broadly accepted. Additional certification helps quite a lot. Saying I can write down an
LL(k)-grammar or a turing-machine will not be worth a single cent.
Use as many keyords as possible in your resume. (e.g J2EE, Bealogic, XML, Java, OOP, OOAD, OOA, OOD, Swing, JDBC, SQL and so on and so on and on and on and on...) The more keywords you use the better it is.
You can earn 40000 Euro to 60000 Euro and sometimes even more a year. As a greencard employee you MUST earn at least 50000 Euro a year. If not, you won�t get a greencard.
Wether you must speak German, depends on the job. If you have lots of contact to (rather small) customers then good German skills is a must. If you do not have or have only rare contact to customers of your company, then you do not need to have good German skills. Your boss will speak English and most of your colleages will speak English (i.e. if they have a scientific education).
But you should learn some German to master every-day-life. Learning German is supported by the government.
Here is the official greencard website (available in English):
www.arbeitsamt.de/zav/services/greencard/index.html
Why not put a test resume there and another one on jobpilot and wait what will happen.
Hope this helps!
Good luck,
Tobias
Ellen Zhao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 17, 2002
Posts: 581
Originally posted by Rory French:
However less than a quarter of these have been issued, and the largest proportion of these have been issued to Indian IT specialists.

Interesting. Yes the German language could be a problem, but not so dominant. Let's think what kind of people would most probably apply the green card. For the IT specialists from the countries around Germany, say, France, Spain, Holland, etc, or even the States, I see no generic reasonable motiviation for them to move to work in Germany. No "besonderes" high salary(compared to their current income), high tax, expensive daily living(other countries I don't know, but definitely more expensive than France and Spain)...For the rest part of the world, the two biggest IT people exporting sources are India and China, this scheme looks born for them.
Then generally speaking, IT specialists in China prefer immigration, 3 or 5 years is definitely meaningless for them. Countries which have friendlier immigration policies like New Zealand, Australia, Canada, etc are more attractive to them. Then there remains Indian specialists. I know nothing about how Indian people think.
IT jobs are not really so difficult to find here, besides what the others have said, it also depends on how much do you expect to get from your employer. If you don't want too much, really easy to find a work. I have a girl friend got a part time job in Bamberg last year summer, she did some simple task for a DB system, 8 euro per hour. Such jobs are pretty many. But
do you want it?

Regards,
Ellen
Axel Janssen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 08, 2001
Posts: 2164
I have recently seen a TV program, where they interviewed some green card holders in Munich. They said that 1/7 of green card holders in Munich are currently unemployed. Think that Munich is hited hardest by end of dot.com high-fly. Don't know about other cities. They where preferably hired by dot.com companies which often broke, so they often had to switch jobs.
There were indians, russians and uruguayos. All of them spoke an excelent german. Some of them learnt it here. Even the unemployed said that they did not want to leave the country.
If you really have good working experience with huge J2EE/EAI projects you might get a chance. Deutsche Bank started outsourcing huge sectors of their internal IT to a german consulting. Other banks might follow. Don't know if this creates IT jobs in Germany or in Eastern Europe/South Asia. I see quite a lot of offerings in embedded systems (for cars etc.) too. On the other hand many people who started studying IT-related during dot.com boom are leaving university right now, many of them have not much real world experience.
Generally the economy is in a very bad state. Nearly everybody I know inside and outside of IT is complaining about bad working environment (lots of pressure).
I was out of job and now got in again. This is with a distributor for really small companies (we have a lot of them). Its lot of consulting in german and small projects, though interesting. Have had and still going to have some invitations (mostly around Websphere). I would call the market very nervous. With one company 350 kilometers away from my home I spoke 3 times, first with project managers, then with managers , then with manager-managers and in the end no job.
Axel
Vikrama Sanjeeva
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 02, 2001
Posts: 756
Hi,
By studying the links posted by Rory, it seems that currently Green Card holders are not satisfy, and they are also worried about there future. Because there 3 years has finished. Secondly if some GC holder is *fired* from company, then he/she is asked to leave a country if can't find job. This is a disadvantage of German Green Card.
Two articles regarding German Green Card is published in German news paper on 2nd. August, 2003. Article#01 & Article#02. But problem is that, it is in German language. Could any one of you translate it or just conclude it in English?
It seems that GC holders are not satisfy at all. And the first German GC holder is also leaving Germany because he is unemplyed from last 8 months.
Bye,
Viki.
[ August 02, 2003: Message edited by: Vikrama Sanjeeva ]
Axel Janssen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 08, 2001
Posts: 2164
Short resume of articles.
They are very much from company-perspective.
- a lot of green card holders are desilusionized about Germany (lots of germans, too, at the moment). Its estimated that 2000 of 14.600 have left the country.
- because of crisis, there is no much demand from german companies for green card holders now.
- industry says that program was a success (well they get well educated people, whose studies are subventionized by your fellow countrymen).
- oposition says, it was no success.
- biggest problems for green card holders is 5 years period and that the unemployed have to leave the country rather quickly (they have expanded that period a little, don't say how much).
- this 5 years period problem should be solved with new immigration law (Germany has very weak demographic records : too few kids a born, so we should need some sort of immigration law in the future).
- oposition blocks immigration law (Germany is very federalistic country. Oposition have mayority in lots of states/l�nder. This empowers them to block laws). Blocking might stop after Bavarian election.
- Denmark plans own Green Card.
Personal advice:
1. I wouldn't take the offer, until some of the economic problems are solved here. Might change in 2 years or so.
5 years and then leave the country? Well, if you really plan to network here and use your contacts for your own company or in some sort of management/sales job in your own country, this might work, but very dificult and questionable if you have the energy for that, if you are doing sophisticated software architecture/design/programming.
2. If you really want to come to Europe, look for offers of smaller countries like for example Denmark. They have much better economic conditions at the moment.
3. There is and will be more pressure on demand side of IT job market from eastern europe.
4. Viewing the current job market, I don't think there will be a new immigration law this year, even after Bavarian election in September or October. The traditionally more company-friendly conservative party is blocking.
5. Boss of company is telling you educated, skilled person to come here, to help him in his business. You come from other half of the globe to a country with strange language. Company breakes. You have to leave country. This has happened to quite a few green card holders and I have strong doubts if this has helped them in their personal career.
[ August 02, 2003: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
Al Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
Axel Janssen wrote:
1. I wouldn't take the offer, until some of the economic problems are solved here. Might change in 2 years or so.
5 years and then leave the country? Well, if you really plan to network here and use your contacts for your own company or in some sort of management/sales job in your own country, this might work, but very dificult and questionable if you have the energy for that, if you are doing sophisticated software architecture/design/programming.

I worked for three months in Germany, and the experience has left me with very mixed feelings. I am an American of mostly German extraction (my people came from Franconia), and I entered Germany with positive feelings. I had worked in Italy, Belgium, and Belgium for a long time, and I had visited Germany several times as a tourist and enjoyed the country.
I spent 3 months in Stuttgart working with Alcatel, and made the following observations in my time there:
Germany is in many ways the most tolerant and open society I have seen. Open to ideas, open to refugees (at least at that time), open to many things. I worked with people of many nations all living in Germany. Particularly Eastern Europeans and Irish, all working in tolerable harmony. The German laws try to be irreproachably fair and largely succeed. There is much to admire.
And yet Alcatel was a profoundly unequal company. I saw no 'auslanders' in the management ranks and few German women were in management. The responsible positions were purely in the hands of German males. Eastern Europeans and Irish were used for coding and did not seem to go any higher (such as onto the design team). I saw no German coders and only one German 'hands-on' employee of any kind, an Oracle DBA who was second-rate and appeared to be aware of the fact. The design staff was exclusively German/Austrian/French. Implementation seemed to be regarded as a non-professional activity and coders were of low rank in the company order.
The suggestions made by implementors and subject matter experts were often completely ignored, and the 6 week summer vacation break caused the most amazing schedule disruption, with one set of designers and managers going on their six-week holiday to be replaced by another team returning from their holiday. There was no hand-over and no warning to the other members of the team (such as myself and my colleagues).
The Germans were polite most of the time, but our low status within the Alcatel heirarchy was made clear on a number of occasions.
One story I have concerned an analog telephone line. We required dial-up access to the internet to recieve email and to peruse our company intranet, but Alcatel's PBX system would not support this. We began by doing it from our hotel rooms, but this was like burning money by the sheaf, which was blowing a hole in the expense budget. Therefore Alcatel ordered analog lines put in (a 4 week wait) and in the meantime we were told to use a line which the fax line used (in another building). That line would simply not work. Remember that this worked fine at the hotel, so the problem isn't with our equipment. I reported this fact to the project manager, and his reply was extraordinary. He said that Deutsch Telecom had installed the fax line, and DT simply did not make mistakes like that. Therefore I was mistaken. And no, he would not walk over with me to the other building for a demonstration. The line worked, I was mistaken, and the case was closed. !!!
We continued to burn money until DT got around to installing the analog lines....
It is possible that this may not have been a 'German' thing but possibly a 'Swabian' thing (Stuttgart is in the state of Baden-Wurtembuurg aka 'Swabia'). I have heard other Germans muitter about Swabians! Or it may be an Alcatel thing, or some combination of the above.
If I were offered a position in Germany I would make the most careful investigations about what kind of organization I was joining and what status I would have. I would certainly wish to meet the manager I would be reporting to before agreeing to terms!
[ August 02, 2003: Message edited by: Alfred Neumann ]

SCJP1.4, SCWCD
mohamed abdou
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 03, 2009
Posts: 7
Hello,
I am just wondering if this green card program is still effective?
 
 
subject: Jobs in Germany on Green Card?