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who said "Its never too late" ???

knicks fan
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 08, 2003
Posts: 2
i am new here, so let me introduce myself...i am a (or was a) java programmer, have four years of total exp(first 3 years in java, but last year i had to take up a C++ job which was all i could get after 4 months of job search at that time). Anyway here i am looking for jobs again since its been couple of months that my contract ended. I am looking for jobs in the java/J2ee area, after sending my resume to every possible e-mail address for the last few months, without any succes in getting an interview or even an e-mail reply for that matter..i was just wondering

1. i know the job market has gone really thin, but whats with all these java/J2EE jobs that gets posted on the job sites, do they really exist?
2. Even when i had all the skills and experience that they were looking for (especially for entry level positions) i never get any replies, not even one by accident?
3. am i too late to get back in the Java bandwagon?(if it even exists) because i got off it last year. Even though i have experience with servlets, jsp, Jdbc, rmi, xml, corba, oracle and all the crap that comes with it.
4. what the heck was Bush thinking when he said, the jobs are leaving 'cause we dont have the right skills?
right now i would work for food if only they give me an opportunity...
thanks for sharing your opinions.
[ August 08, 2003: Message edited by: knicks fan ]
[ August 08, 2003: Message edited by: knicks fan ]
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Hi,
1. I think not all of these jobs are real. You could tracking down the related topic in this forum and see these ranchers even figure out the posting strategies.
2. They probably looking for a recycle position, someone has the skill set exactly as the ones they let go. You could win the slot if you have the right attitude. It's a catch-22.
3. Java jobs are so saturated and so many APIs only turn off potential customers.
4. Probably he meant those do not come up with a new idea. No new innovation, just same old recycle stuffs with the new technologies. He try to piss people up so they have to come up with something quick. Even Alan Greenspan could not answer the Congress directly about economy growth with jobless. He provided a run around speculation answer instead.
If you want to work for food, you could apply for a job with your local grocery store.
Regards,
MCao
[ August 08, 2003: Message edited by: Matt Cao ]
knicks fan
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 08, 2003
Posts: 2
thx for your feed back.
Originally posted by Matt Cao:
If you want to work for food, you could apply for a job with your local grocery store.
[ August 08, 2003: Message edited by: Matt Cao ]


thats exactly what i will be doing starting next week...
Greg Neef
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 82
Heres my guess from 20 years in IT.
30% of jobs posted are not 'real', ie. they already have the person in mind if not in place and they are just going through the motions of posting it.
Of the 70% remaining, one postion gets say... 100 resumes (being conservative). Of that, say 20 (being generous) make it past the first cut being done by either a computer program or an idiot. Of those 20, they will pick 3 using some weegee board peculiar to thier shop. Those 3 people will get a call. Using this math, the chance of getting called on an application in this market (even for a job you are well qualified for) is:
0.7 * 0.2 * ( 3 / 20 ) = 0.021 = 2.1%. Therefore, you would need to submit 50 resumes to be likely to get one call.
I have been doing better than that in at least getting a call on about 1 in 15 applications. I only apply for things I am well qualified for and try to taylor my resume to each one. I have also started trying to use the T format cover letter which seems like a good way to get on the short stack given the 15 seconds of attention your application will get on the first pass. job-hunt.org cover letter


SCJP 1.4
Sam Walker
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 06, 2002
Posts: 65
Hello and welcome,
Your frustration rings familiar. I�m going to answer your question from my point of view which is I�m afraid not very positive. I know some of the other members in this forum will not agree with me.
You asked if the jobs posted are real, in my opinion more than fifty percent of the jobs posted are not real. Furthermore, I think more than fifty percent of the real job postings are already promised to or filled by someone who knows the hiring manager. Why do jobs get posted if they�re not real? The answer is one real job gets posted many times probably by many different head hunters who hope to find that ultimate candidate. Now let�s talk about the real job postings. In my opinion, at least half of these are already promised or given to people who know the hiring manager. You can fill in the details -- if you care to -- as to why a job that�s been promised or filled should be advertised. As I said these are my conclusions based on my personal observations and experiences.
Finally, the reality of IT job market these days is reflected in the job postings on craigslist.org. It�s not hard to find job postings with a large list of requirements that finish with a statement like, �this job pays very low, don�t expect to pay your rent with it�.
The good news is, if you can wait a few years and keep your skills current, this job market is bound to turn around.
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
Sometimes these head-hunters expect to see activity in a skill. So they post a description of a client's needs and interview prospective candidates. They are hoping client will indeed have the opening in the near future. When a job opens, they are ready to burst through the starting gate with candidates. The accountants at the client on the other hand are not allowing money to be spent.
Wait a few years? Isn't that wait a few more years....
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
"knicks fan",
Welcome to JavaRanch.
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Al Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
Originally posted by Greg Neef:
Heres my guess from 20 years in IT.
30% of jobs posted are not 'real', ie. they already have the person in mind if not in place and they are just going through the motions of posting it.
Of the 70% remaining, one postion gets say... 100 resumes (being conservative). Of that, say 20 (being generous) make it past the first cut being done by either a computer program or an idiot. Of those 20, they will pick 3 using some weegee board peculiar to thier shop. Those 3 people will get a call. Using this math, the chance of getting called on an application in this market (even for a job you are well qualified for) is:
0.7 * 0.2 * ( 3 / 20 ) = 0.021 = 2.1%. Therefore, you would need to submit 50 resumes to be likely to get one call.
I have been doing better than that in at least getting a call on about 1 in 15 applications. I only apply for things I am well qualified for and try to taylor my resume to each one. I have also started trying to use the T format cover letter which seems like a good way to get on the short stack given the 15 seconds of attention your application will get on the first pass. job-hunt.org cover letter

Good point(s), Greg. I would add one thing. In this market the recruiter is the gatekeeper, so you have to market to the recruiter. To me this means two things:
A good (and short) cover letter, possibly a tailored CV/resume.
Second (and most important) always follow with a telephone call! The recruiter arrives in the morning and finds 200 CV's on his email queue for each opening she has advertised. Perhaps 1000 all told. How many is he actually going to read? 100 if you are lucky.
The phone call forces the recruiter to dig up your CV and look at it (or at least to read the cover letter). Assuming you are a qualified candidate, this raises your chances of getting included from (perhaps) 1% to possibly as high as 30%! This is my experience, anyway. So I get a 'call' for as many as 80% of my CV's sent out, and probably a hit (an actual submittal) for between 20% and 40% of those. Pretty good odds I think. When I am actively doing this I average a submittal a day, even in hard times!
There are other important things (such as having the right skills and preparing for the interview). But if you don't get through the filter you won't even get a chance.
Marketing to the recruiter can cut your volume of applications by a factor of 10 but raise your chances of getting through the recruiter filter by a factor of 100. Worth doing!
[ August 09, 2003: Message edited by: Alfred Neumann ]

SCJP1.4, SCWCD
Greg Neef
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 82
Originally posted by Alfred Neumann
Second (and most important) always follow with a telephone call! The recruiter arrives in the morning and finds 200 CV's on his email queue for each opening she has advertised. Perhaps 1000 all told. How many is he actually going to read? 100 if you are lucky.

Your probably right and I have not been doing this. I need to start following your advise. Thanks.
Tim Holloway
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jun 25, 2001
Posts: 16098
    
  21

What little recruiter response I've gotten indicated that actually a typical position may get 500 responses, a good number of which aren't even remotely suitable, since the Internet makes blasting r�sum�s off a "one-click" operation.
So odds are that no human eye is ever going to see the good stuff on your CV unless it first passed an automated text scanner.


Customer surveys are for companies who didn't pay proper attention to begin with.
Al Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
Originally posted by Tim Holloway:
What little recruiter response I've gotten indicated that actually a typical position may get 500 responses, a good number of which aren't even remotely suitable, since the Internet makes blasting r�sum�s off a "one-click" operation.
So odds are that no human eye is ever going to see the good stuff on your CV unless it first passed an automated text scanner.

Could be, Tim. I've had some experiences like that, where the recruiter cannot find the CV I've referred to. What happens then is that I'm usually asked to resend the CV to a different email address, one which bypasses the automated system.
Or so I believe.
It's the same problem as when I was starting out in 1982. How to get your resume to the top of the pile. I used to send them in a nice little blue transparency folder which cost a few pennies each.....
It's still the same problem. Only the details have changed. My experience is that while personal phone calls are difficult to do, nothing works nearly as well.
For one thing, some recruiters are active and after a time they recognize you. You can expect to begin getting calls once they are convinced of your bona-fides and put you in the 'active' files.
Muthu Nata
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 13, 2003
Posts: 2
Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:

Second (and most important) always follow with a telephone call! The recruiter arrives in the morning and finds 200 CV's on his email queue for each opening she has advertised. Perhaps 1000 all told. How many is he actually going to read? 100 if you are lucky.
[ August 09, 2003: Message edited by: Alfred Neumann ]


i beleive that atleast 10-20% of those who sent the resume follow up with a call, which makes it impossible for the recruiter to talk to everyone. Most of the times i can't even get past their front desk, even if i do, i get either the recruiter's voice mail or a standard reply "Have you sent your resume for this position? if so, we will contact you if we beleive you are a perfect match"...they dont have the time to find out who you are and what your crdentials are, doesn't matter how persuasive you are.
[ August 13, 2003: Message edited by: Muthu Nata ]
Al Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
Originally posted by Muthu Nata:


i beleive that atleast 10-20% of those who sent the resume follow up with a call, which makes it impossible for the recruiter to talk to everyone. Most of the times i can't even get past their front desk, even if i do, i get either the recruiter's voice mail or a standard reply "Have you sent your resume for this position? if so, we will contact you if we beleive you are a perfect match"...they dont have the time to find out who you are and what your crdentials are, doesn't matter how persuasive you are.

Hmmm, Interesting reply here. I have never experienced this. Except maybe when I had no experience, just starting out. Recruiters don't want to spend time talking to entry-level in times like these.
Not to say that is what you are, Muthu. Where do you come from?
Sometimes it takes persistence, Muthu. I don't give up until the fifth call or so. I also always write a custom cover letter. It's easier to reject a CV sent through the mail than a letter, I think.
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Hi,
I heard some HR do agree with you about sending a resume with cover letter through snail mail will get read and email usually your career being held hostage at the delete button. But need not dwelve too much into it because the company usually have system backup. HR rep do get into trouble by delete people resumes. I think the one likely to screw you up is at the recruiter end. As matter of fact, I raise this concern to the HR Manager at my company. She said when you send your resume through email, usually it hotlink to the HR Manager, then he/she redistributes the emails to his/her staffs evenly. I mentioned about cases that advertise the contact email address for candidate to send resume. Her respond was not every company have effective management system. She said take advance of the company website, you could gain a lot useful information from it.
Just my two cents,
MCao
Greg Neef
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 82
I have tried to follow up apps twice now. First time had only the first name of the contact and did not know which office she worked out of. Called the local office and they gave me her number. Got her on the phone first call. She was polite and somewhat informative but hurried. The position was already filled I found. On second one had name and phone number of contact but only got voice mail and no call back on my message. Guess I should have kept calling the guy to try to speak to him in person.
Al Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
The calling technique is a lot more applicable to third-party recruiters than to direct company contacts.
For the latter I recommend going direct to line managers through networking techniques too long to describe here. Have a read of Gurilla Tac5tics in the Job Market for a full explanation.
But recruiters (AKA pimps, headhunters) it's different. They are normally pretty accessible, and sometimes even return calls!
 
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