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Any suggestions please!!

Joe J. Wang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 26, 2003
Posts: 67
Dear friends,
Please help me with what I should do next. I am kind of confused. I would appreciate any words, comments or suggestions. Thanks!
I got a master degree in computer science last year(since I am a foreigner, already got a B.S. in my home country, a US master seems to be a popular way to go before land a job), and I got a job working in a lab(manage a database, coding some web app and data analysis program, maintain their small LAN). Although it is hard I am still thinking of get a job in the industry. I go with java, passed SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCEA I( not the whole SCEA, just part I to show that I am familiar with the J2EE background). But it seems without any industry experience, I still can't get any job. So what do you guys think what I need to do next? to spend several months to get a MCSD.net? or some other Certification(bea, ibm, oracle)? Or maybe I need to go and get a business degree(finance, accounting, mis, ...) to be stronger for a system analyst position?
What do you guys think about it? I know it is really hard to say, which way will promise me a job. But some suggestions from experienced guys always are much better than thinking about it just by myself.
Thanks a lot!
Best regards,
Joe


SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCEA I.
Aparna Sharma
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 30
Dear Joe,
I would think twice before investing time and money in another degree. If you have both in loads, by all means go ahead and spend both.
It seems you are confused as what to work in. Maybe you want to decide which is better for you. As you are saying , you have an impressive array of certifications in J2EE. If it is your passion to work in Java/J2EE, you can wait for some more time.
Is it just lack of experience that is keeping you from getting the job you want?
I dont know whether .Net course will help you. I dont know how large the opportunities are for .Net. I would say give some time to your job search.
Keep your good faith. It only takes a second for your life to change.
HTH(even a wee bit),
Aparna


Aparna Sharma<br />SCJP 1.4 (yippeeee!)
shankar vembu
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 10, 2001
Posts: 309
Originally posted by Joe J. Wang:
I got a job working in a lab(manage a database, coding some web app and data analysis program, maintain their small LAN). Although it is hard I am still thinking of get a job in the industry.

You say u have a job in a lab, is it a research lab in ur uni ??? then i guess u can count this as experience if ur working on some research stuff or on a live project. better continue with this work and search for a job in the industry. u have the degrees as well as the certs. i think they are sufficient and u dont have to work towards another degree. no point in continuing to get more degrees, at some stage u gotto stop. and since you are already employed( may not be of your choice), there is no problem as u can always show this as experience to your prospective employer.
good luck.
regards.
shankar vembu
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 10, 2001
Posts: 309
forgot to mention abt the open source projects. this one is a common advice from fellow ranchers .....
regards.
[ November 19, 2003: Message edited by: shankar vembu ]
Joe J. Wang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 26, 2003
Posts: 67
Hi guys,
Thank you for the replies, I appreciate that.
For the time and money, I think no one can easily say he has a lot of them to spend. But I am really tired with my current job and eagerly to be software engineer in the industry. If I can get a assistantship in the school, I don't think I lose much since my current salary is low. And most important, if the business degree can really help me a lot on landing a job related to system/business analyst or developer, or even land a job just by the business degree, I wouldn't be more happier to go to the business school.
However, if it is more possible for me to get a offer just by getting some other certification or learning other techs (e.g. .NET, Oracle) with 1 year, I would not spend another 2 years in school. So do you guys think that get both of Java and .Net certification will give one stronger boost to get a job? Or maybe I need to stay with Java, learn more on some vender tools (weblogic, webspheer, ...)?
For the opensource project, it is also hard to find a good one to work on. And I am not sure how much it can help for landing a job.
Need your advice!
Thanks,
Joe
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Hi,
It does not matter what are you studying, if you do not have practical experience... you very much staring into very dark tunel. Certs do not open opportunities doors as discussed sometimes ago in this forum.
Since you work with school, try to be friendly with the professors in the disciplinary field. Show them your resourcefulness, in return, some may take you under their wings or introduce you to their contact circles. You may be surprise because some do have their consultant businesses on the side.
The advice is networking, networking, and networking. Women use this tactic for very long time. Men begun to utilize it. The strategy behind networking is to develop the chemistry bond. As long as people can stand you, like you, they are willing to overlook some weakness from you. As people nobody perfect. If you are a complete stranger knocking on the door opportunities, the gatekeepers will expect a perfect candidate from you.
Regards,
MCao
Joe J. Wang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 26, 2003
Posts: 67
Hi Matt,
Thank you very much for the advice. Yeah, some friends also remind me that the network is the most important thing. A chinese lady got a offer to write codes in C even before she get familiar with C. Just because she know the right person. But perhaps you know that it is kind of hard to establish network here for a foreigner (I assume that you are from china too, according to your last name). Network is very important but it can't be established within short time. And for getting close to some professors, I tried that once. But it didn't work well. I am working in a kind of biology lab full-time. And I tried to work for a computer science faculty. I worried a lot about how to not let my boss know that (even I worked in my spare time, if my boss know it, I will be fired right away). And even worse, although the cs faculty was satisfied with my speed to complete the project, but it seems he doesn't care about me.(i.e. although you are good but we don't need you.) Maybe he thought I am cheap, I worked for him free. I know this campus is famous for her arrogant. And a lot professors treat their student assistants just like slaves, especially for the international students. Maybe it is the core spirit of texas(I met many mexican workers, they said they don't like this university and this small town). My boss is the same too. Since I can finish my work quickly, he is always thinking about how to fully occupy my time. He let me to watering the plants (the work should be done by the student workers), he let me take care of all kinds of the machines (the Vacuum machine, the vacuum pump, change oil, ...), he even let me to clean his yard last thanks giving. Maybe he thought it is him who offer me a chance to make a living in us, to keep a legal status in us. And I really need to thank him a lot.
Ok, stop, that is enough. I don't want to be so Annoying. But I think that explain why I am eager to get another job, feel hard to establish network with some faculties, and wants to go to a business school in somewhere else.
Your said the certification can't help me to get a job. Perhaps that is true. But it really hurts. It kills some hope, and somehow, let me lose the strength to go further with the certification.
But anyway, forget about the job, I can still learn something from the certification, and from my experience, it is better than just read some books and do some coding by myself, although it is expensive.
Again, thanks a lot for the reply and advice.
Best regards,
Joe
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Originally posted by Joe J. Wang:
Hi Matt,
Network is very important but it can't be established within short time. And for getting close to some professors, I tried that once. But it didn't work well.

Hi Joe,
All you need is open yourself up. You might be surprise how similar everyone on earth are. On the veneer, we all seem different. But underneath, we are all try to make a living in one way or anothers. If first time fail, try again. Just because you flunk one course, you don't drop out the programme, right.
I am working in a kind of biology lab full-time.

This field lead to even greater opportunities than strictly computer science or business.
And I tried to work for a computer science faculty. I worried a lot about how to not let my boss know that (even I worked in my spare time, if my boss know it, I will be fired right away). And even worse, although the cs faculty was satisfied with my speed to complete the project, but it seems he doesn't care about me.(i.e. although you are good but we don't need you.) Maybe he thought I am cheap, I worked for him free. I know this campus is famous for her arrogant. And a lot professors treat their student assistants just like slaves, especially for the international students. Maybe it is the core spirit of texas(I met many mexican workers, they said they don't like this university and this small town). My boss is the same too. Since I can finish my work quickly, he is always thinking about how to fully occupy my time. He let me to watering the plants (the work should be done by the student workers), he let me take care of all kinds of the machines (the Vacuum machine, the vacuum pump, change oil, ...), he even let me to clean his yard last thanks giving. Maybe he thought it is him who offer me a chance to make a living in us, to keep a legal status in us. And I really need to thank him a lot.

There are two sides of any coin. Not all Texans are bad, you must have experience with Red-Neck attitude. Not all the professors are like that. Everything starts from you and ends from you. Try to figure why you have been treating like that. Why the Chinese gal made it? What is her secret?
Is Chinese any better? I work for the largest Taiwanese company and the boss rank at 179 richest people on the world. His children think he is the best daddyo, but not his employees. I worked very hard on everything both technical and soft skills to where I am today. When I joined this company, I brought with me the knowledge I have learned from Western companies. Yet, I had the difficult time at first. Even subordinates didn't want to follow my instructions. Yet, they allowed the managers bossing them around like coolies. The changed lightbulbs, cleanning toilet bowls, etc. Luckily, my hiring engineering manager understood me; otherwise, he never hired me in the first place. He had confident in me by allowing worked with variety of managers. I worked and worked and worked intelligently. Then one day, the company had serious problem and the majority of people were letting go including my hiring manager. But the VP retained me between him, the President, several executives, and me joined them to hire a new engineering manager.
I now take order directly from COO. The company is not so bad comparing to other companies in the region. Just let you know, hardship build character.

Ok, stop, that is enough. I don't want to be so Annoying. But I think that explain why I am eager to get another job, feel hard to establish network with some faculties, and wants to go to a business school in somewhere else.

It is up to you.

Your said the certification can't help me to get a job. Perhaps that is true. But it really hurts. It kills some hope, and somehow, let me lose the strength to go further with the certification.
But anyway, forget about the job, I can still learn something from the certification, and from my experience, it is better than just read some books and do some coding by myself, although it is expensive.

Even with low income, it is still income. Take your time study the labor market before venture out alone.

Again, thanks a lot for the reply and advice.
Best regards,
Joe

You welcome. I just carry it forward. When I first know about this Java Ranch Internet club from Kathy Sierra book. I was floored by John Coxley advice. I did sent him a standing ovation comments. If that man wants to write a motivation books, I bet that he will hit it big time. I am stuck here ever since. Probably I will easing out when the US labor market improving.
Joe J. Wang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 26, 2003
Posts: 67
Hi Matt,
Thanks again for the reply.
All you need is open yourself up.

Yeah, that is what I am trying to do. And won't stop because of any difficulty.
There are two sides of any coin. Not all Texans are bad, you must have experience with Red-Neck attitude. Not all the professors are like that. Everything starts from you and ends from you. Try to figure why you have been treating like that. Why the Chinese gal made it? What is her secret?
Is Chinese any better?

I am sorry for I didn't say it clearly and I am very sorry for the offending to all texans by my words (I keep a good relationship with my former colleague and boss, I enjoy the time when I was student assistant in their lab. And they are texans too).
My current boss is chinese. But I did meet a lot of persons and unhappy things in this university which I never met before. Well, I am not trying to say that it is all the others' fault. But somehow, what my boss did can be called humiliated. And although the salary is low, he promised me to sponsor me GC application before I take this offer. That is why I didn't spend all the rest of my opt to seek some other jobs. But now he never wants me to talk about it and even worse, he will let me go after the current porject finished although I did a good job. So things are kind of different here from yours. You know, if I can see any hopes I won't let it go, since I am a realistic person, and I know how hard it is in the current job market. But I can't endure the humiliated behavior without seeing any hopes.
What I need is just another job, another environment. Maybe I need to go back china. Although it is hard to go back for our chinese, but at least I can get a real software engineer job there. And I never need to worry about the visa status.
Well let's see, I will keep struggling and struggling. The US industry working experience is still a dream of mine. And it is very valuable.
Thanks,
Joe
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Hi Joe,
I was worry that might not understand my cryptic comments. I was doing teleconference overseas while written the comments last night.
Your boss pulled the oldest trick in the book. Exploit the new and inexperience people fresh off the boat. Some did not fully understood the process of applying for GC, but in your boss case seems like he delibrately fooling you.
If you don't mind I ask. What is your social life? Do you have any? I think the easy option to obtain the GC is marrying the native or someone already established the legal status.
If you business experience is the way to go. I think applying for the retail sale job. It will be your booting camp training you to communicate interface more effectively and think on your feet. You do not need MBA to succeed in business. Your MS is fine. Business people are shrewd thinkers. Their thinking are not outthere in space. Their thinking are very practical. Their competitive edges is outthink others in practicality and in the right time.
Ask around those established retail companies specially private ones. I think best is walk-in. No matter what, you have an edge over other competitors because you know Chinese language. Currently, labor market favor multilingo candidates with knowledge in Russian, Chinese, Japanese, or German.
I am not sure what is the labor market condition in China. Everyone give me different stories. But I think if you have top US school education, you could go back China and applying for job based on your educational background alone. Since you have neck-of-the-wood school, I think you have to compete just like here in US. It is true you do not have worry about visa.
Regards,
MCao
Joe J. Wang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 26, 2003
Posts: 67
Hi Matt,
Thanks a lot! It is very nice to see the suggestions you give to me!
If you business experience is the way to go. I think applying for the retail sale job. It will be your booting camp training you to communicate interface more effectively and think on your feet. You do not need MBA to succeed in business. Your MS is fine. Business people are shrewd thinkers. Their thinking are not outthere in space. Their thinking are very practical. Their competitive edges is outthink others in practicality and in the right time.
Ask around those established retail companies specially private ones. I think best is walk-in. No matter what, you have an edge over other competitors because you know Chinese language. Currently, labor market favor multilingo candidates with knowledge in Russian, Chinese, Japanese, or German.

You ring the bell to me. Yeah, that is definately another way to go. But originally, my though is combine my programming and business degree/knowledge togerther, to get a position of system analyst or something like that in a software/consulting company. (doing analysis, part of design and then implementation).
However, your suggestion is another possible way to go. I heard one of my former roomate's firend is a very successful sales man. He sells the machines/products that purify the water (for both living/drinking and industry) to china. And he earned a lot.
Anyway, I need to think about it and make a plan. Thanks a lot for listening my problem and giving me the valuable suggestions!
Best regards,
Joe
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Originally posted by Joe J. Wang:
But originally, my though is combine my programming and business degree/knowledge togerther, to get a position of system analyst or something like that in a software/consulting company. (doing analysis, part of design and then implementation).
Joe[/QB]

Hi Joe,
I think you still do not get it. The whole thing about career is strategy not what job is important and what is not. Life is full of up and down so does labor market. You cannot do any analysis when you have no idea how's the business run/operate. I point out sale because it is very easy to get in with the least credential requirements but the reward is outweight any other approaches. Once you master the sale technique, you will be free to roam other opportunities within an organization. You will have strong allies from the top because those executives know you have the capability to generate company revenue. Your words, ideas, or products will mean something.
Good Lucks,
MCao
 
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