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US tech majors defend outsourcing

Ajeet Jose
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Joined: Dec 05, 2003
Posts: 68
http://www.siliconindia.com/shownewsdata.asp?newsno=22457&newscat=Technology
Steven Broadbent
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Joined: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 400
If outsourcing is used to get better quality and/or reduce costs, can anyone tell me about a CEO or director who has taken a pay cut?
Surely it's not just us high tech drones who have to suck up the pain and tighten our belts?
[ January 09, 2004: Message edited by: Steven Broadbent ]

"....bigmouth strikes again, and I've got no right to take my place with the human race...."<p>SCJP 1.4
Stephen Pride
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Joined: Sep 14, 2000
Posts: 121
Originally posted by Steven Broadbent:
If outsourcing is used to get better quality and/or reduce costs, can anyone tell me about a CEO or director who has taken a pay cut?
Surely it's not just us high tech drones who have to suck up the pain and tighten our belts?

What blasphemy! That would be totally un-American!


SCJP
Joe Pluta
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Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
THis is why I get such a kick out of the Indian "news" source.
Here's what they said: "Chief executives from leading US high technology companies have belied concerns that outsourcing is a major problem facing the American economy."
However, the words outsourcing and offshoring are never mentioned in the paper. Yes, they say we need to improve our infrastructure and education, but not one CEO is going to talk about outsourcing anymore - they know better.
They did slip one thing in though: the concept that "Buy American" is bad. Uh, not really, guys! It's only bad to CEOs whose compensation packages depend on trade margins. It's GOOD to American manufacturers and ultimately the American economy. But anyhow, what do you expect frmo a bunch of CEOs, none of whom probably know what the price of a loaf of bread is today.
Joe
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
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Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
They did slip one thing in though: the concept that "Buy American" is bad.

huh??? I read the article and I didnt see this mentioned anywhere. They did say "Trade protectionism is not the answer.." so if you are referring to that, your translation is incorrect. You can have a free market and still buy American goods. For example in India they have American, Japanese, Korean, European and Indian car manufacturers thereby showing a true display of free market principles in the Automobile segment but majority of the people buy the Indian automobile simply because they choose to. So similarly you can have the same thing in software markets too but the "American people" have to choose to buy American.
When was the last time you bought something at Walmart?


Commentary From the Sidelines of history
Rufus BugleWeed
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Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
On this board only experience counts, education is bogus.
Joe Pluta
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Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Did you try reading the actual document?
http://www.cspp.org/reports/ChooseToCompete.pdf
Joe
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
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Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Did you try reading the actual document?
http://www.cspp.org/reports/ChooseToCompete.pdf
Joe

Maybe someone switched the link, but the original article linked to in this thread is a news article in SiliconIndia.com and I was specifically referring to that.
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Hi,
Of course, those companies have to defend outsourcing. Are the unemployed IT folks paid their executives?
You are always can elect not to buy technologies stock. But are you going to stop folks from overseas to buy those stocks too.
I think those salespeople got it right since long time ago. At mid-age society expected you in the management level because you still not have enough assets to own your own business. Some people do but at the expense of their intellectual levels.
Regards,
MCao
[ January 09, 2004: Message edited by: Matt Cao ]
Joe Pluta
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Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Maybe someone switched the link, but the original article linked to in this thread is a news article in SiliconIndia.com and I was specifically referring to that.
The "news article" in SiliconIndia was based entirely on the report "Choose to Compete: How Innovation, Investment and Productivity Can Grow US Jobs and Ensure American Competitiveness in the 21st Century" which I provided a link to.
The Indian article in a typical misrepresentation says the report "belied concerns that outsourcing is a major problem facing the American economy", although the paper didn't say anything about outsourcing, which was my point.
The paper DID however say that buying American is not a good policy, which is the type of lunacy we're getting used to hearing from American CEOs.
Joe
Joe Pluta
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Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
When was the last time you bought something at Walmart?
I almost never shop at Walmart anymore, only if they have something I can't get at Target or KMart. And while I buy things that are both American made and foreign-made, I try to give the nod to American companies if possible.
My baby will have an Evenflo stroller, built in Piqua, Ohio. He'll ride in a Buick and a Pontiac. I use Eureka vacuum cleaners and Honeywell, Kenmore, Whirlpool and Maytag small appliances, all of whom have at least some US manufacturing plants. My bicycle is even a Huffy.
Not everything is as easy - it's hard to find toy or apparel manufacturers that are solely US-based, but we'll concentrate on OshKosh B'Gosh and Fisher-Price as two companies that at least have some American manufacturing plants. Some products simply can't be bought in the US; my TV is Samsung.
But I try. I make sure that a significant portion of my money goes towards Aemrican goods and services.
Joe
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
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Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
I almost never shop at Walmart anymore,..

Thats good to hear, I have a policy that if anything costs more than $50 then I'd rather not have it or wait until I have enough money to buy it from a mom & pop store. I'm not so sure about cars anymore though.. they say the Buick is all american but its made from the hub cap to the hood in Mexico. The "German" Mercedes Benz is however made in good ol' Alabama employing more Americans. (I could be wrong or the information I have could be dated..)
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
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Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
The paper DID however say that buying American is not a good policy, which is the type of lunacy we're getting used to hearing from American CEOs.

Perhaps I missed this line, could you point it out to me.. the only thing that came close to this was that the article said trade protectionism is not good.
Joe Pluta
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Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Automobiles in particular are difficult to source. I've yet to do a ton of research on the issue, since I traditionally buy used cars (my current beast of burden was eight years old already when I bought it five years ago).
However, when I do go to buy a new car (we'll probably need something new for the baby) I'm going to study in-depth how much of however many thousands of my hard-earned dollars actually stay in the country.
Joe
Joe Pluta
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Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Perhaps I missed this line, could you point it out to me.. the only thing that came close to this was that the article said trade protectionism is not good.
It's in the paper. The paper that the "article" was based on. The sole source of the information for the "article". The paper I provided a link to. The paper that says NOTHING about outsourcing.
Joe
Stephen Pride
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Joined: Sep 14, 2000
Posts: 121
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
However, when I do go to buy a new car (we'll probably need something new for the baby) I'm going to study in-depth how much of however many thousands of my hard-earned dollars actually stay in the country.

Toyota is also good about setting up shop in the USA. Matter of fact, they are planning to build a plant in south San Antonio, TX and another one north of Austin, TX soon. Not sure of the % of the vehicles themselves that are actually made here, though.
Bhau Mhatre
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Joined: Jun 11, 2003
Posts: 199
From Joe Pluta ---------
However, when I do go to buy a new car (we'll probably need something new for the baby) I'm going to study in-depth how much of however many thousands of my hard-earned dollars actually stay in the country.
---------------------------
There's a saying in my local language that loosely translates to something like "patching up the holes while keeping the doors wide open". Not sure if that saying makes sense in this scenario but AFAIK,
  • [list] The US market is open for everyone and anyone to buy and sell stocks, invest wherever and in whatever they like. Billions of dollars are being transacted by the minute and I am sure there are many big non-American players involed too who put their money in US stock markets. They either lose or gain and that happens in order of millions.
  • Similarly, there are probably thousands of Americans who buy and sell at other international markets, putting their millions- American Dollars - outside of America.
  • Many American companies have branches or daughter companies in other countires.
  • Many Non-American companies have branches or daughter companies in US.
    Trying to keep some thousands of your hard-earned dollars actually stay within the country by buying American products only while the markets are open reminds me of the above saying.
    Also, how can one make sure what exactly happens to that hard-earned money of an American after that money leaves his/her hands and goes to another American even though the original American buyer's in-depth studies indicated that it was an all-American product.
    Now if the above sounds sad and unfortunate, well here's some good news- all the above is nothing new. It has been happening since decades and the US has been an economic superpower all that while. May be those wide open doors actually helped US bring more in rather than let more out? And those little patches- well, I don't know how much they really count.


  • -Mumbai cha Bhau
    Joe Pluta
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    Joined: Jun 23, 2003
    Posts: 1376
    Trying to keep some thousands of your hard-earned dollars actually stay within the country by buying American products only while the markets are open reminds me of the above saying.
    I respectfully disagree. By continuing to purchase products manufactured in America I am directly supporting American workers. I will now be checking on a regular basis which companies employee visa workers, and I will direct my business away from those companies wherever feasible.

    Also, how can one make sure what exactly happens to that hard-earned money of an American after that money leaves his/her hands and goes to another American even though the original American buyer's in-depth studies indicated that it was an all-American product.
    I can neither predict nor control what someone else does, Mumbai, but neither can I use that as an excuse for not doing my part. You know what this reminds me of? "In Germany, they first came for the communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Catholic. Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up."
    I am speaking up NOW, hopefully before it's too late.
    Joe
    Bhau Mhatre
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    Joined: Jun 11, 2003
    Posts: 199
    Joe Pluta ---------
    I respectfully disagree. By continuing to purchase products manufactured in America I am directly supporting American workers.
    ---------------------------
    And in return, you would expect other Americans to do the same, I suppose. Good enough.
    In that case, if you were elected in one of the government offices where you have the power to sign your decision, will you force other Americans to buy American products only? Yes? No? Why?
    Will you force other Americans not to send their hard-earned dollars out of US by not investing in other countries' stock markets? Yes? No? Why?
    Axel Janssen
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Jan 08, 2001
    Posts: 2164
    Outsourcing to lower wage countries is a fact.
    Improved communication technology, better skills to be more or less able to coummunicate in other languages, ajustment of laws, political systems, business practices, education and other institutions lowers the costs of outsourcing.
    We can't stop such things with laws.
    Last year was record year for Germanys' export statistic. But this statistic does simply not tell the truth. If we sell an Audi car to an American, it counts as 100% german export in the statistic. In reality its only assembled in Germany. In the last years more and more parts are made in eastern europe or elsewhere.
    Every economic change results in winners and loosers. The loosers are those who have to compete with the people from lower wages.
    Does adjustment between the developing world and the G-7 lead to a wider gap between the social groups inside a G-7 country? This is a legitimate fear, if you look at the last 3 years or so inside the G-7 countries. Maybe there will be new developments.
    Paul McKenna
    Ugly Redneck
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    Joined: Jul 08, 2000
    Posts: 1006
    Originally posted by Bhau Mhatre:
    In that case, if you were elected in one of the government offices where you have the power to sign your decision, will you force other Americans to buy American products only? Yes? No? Why?
    Will you force other Americans not to send their hard-earned dollars out of US by not investing in other countries' stock markets? Yes? No? Why?[/QB]

    I know the question is meant for Joe, but here is my take on this. If any country anywhere in the world imposes restrictions on whom the people can buy from.. I know for sure that that country is going to lose out big time in the long run. If people of a country conscientiously decide to buy their products from a source then that is different but artificially forcing them to do so is harmful for the economy. Lets take a simple example to illustrate this..
    A refrigerator manufacturer is in country A, the manufacturer sells 1000 units a month to the local population due to govt. restrictions on free trade. Soon the population that has the power to purchase buys these refrigerators and the manufacturer is doing well. But after a point say 10 years the sales have saturated and the manufacturer is not able to sell anymore because how many refrigerators are people going to buy? 1 or 2? The sales will then drop to 100 units per month.. therefore the people who were being employed at 1000 units per month sales figures will have to be laid off unless the company finds international markets. Since the company has not been in an internationally competetive arena before it will almost surely collapse. Simply because other companies will make use of capitalist principles to lower cost of production. The only bail out for this company then can be another government intervention to step in and take charge of the company. Subsidizing raw materials etc. This will cause a ripple effect else where in the economy because money that should be going for funding program A is now going to artificially prop up an ailing company.
    Hope this illustrates the flaws in an economy that is not free-market. You can have a free-market but the people have to decide to take sides if they want local companies to prosper. Can you really do that? I dont think so.. no matter how much you may want to buy a Buick, sooner or later you are going to give in to a Toyota because you will feel that you will save more money on the Toyota in the long run when compared to the Buick and that saved money would be better spent on the child's college education. That is reality.. as sad as it may sound.
    Joe Pluta
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    Joined: Jun 23, 2003
    Posts: 1376
    In that case, if you were elected in one of the government offices where you have the power to sign your decision, will you force other Americans to buy American products only? Yes? No? Why?
    You realize of course that this sort of hypothetical question is much larger than the simpler one each American citizen can act on themselves, and that the limitations of this sort of forum won't allow me to do the question justice, correct? If you're willing to work within those guidelines, I'd say that, in a very simplistic sense, the first thing I would do would be to analyze the American economy and identify four major groupings:
    1. Industries which are currenlty facing no great outside pressure from foreign markets - truck drivers, nurses and physicists all fall into this category, for differing reasons.
    2. Industries which are currently strong, but are beginning to see competition, such as IT and accounting.
    3. Industries for which developing countries have built an infrastructure with decent standards of living for the workers, which allow them to fairly beat us in the open market.
    4. Industries where foreign goods are produced under inhumane conditions.
    The next step would be training programs, in which workers in industries of type three would be trained for jobs in positions of type one. This would allow us to remove artifical trade barriers in those fields, thus reducing our debt and allowing us to compete more fairly in the other fields.
    Type two industries would have to be analyzed to see which portions can remain type one and which are destined to be type three. For those which we believe we can keep viable, I would flood the publicly funded colleges with courses on those technologies and get kids in there. For those which we will begin losing, I'd begin retraining programs. In either case, I would protect them with short-term tariffs until retraining programs are in place and showing results.
    Type four industries I would tariff the hell out of them to make them non-viable products for American customers.
    I might also offer incentives to people who buy American, such as rebating the sales tax for any American product purchased. Certain big ticket items such as cars and major appliances (durable goods) bought from American manufacturers would also have extra incentives, such as tuition credits.
    Now, the "buy American" issue is fraught with peril and lots of opportunity for fraud, so I'd have to think about it carefully, but the idea is there - buy American, build America.
    I'd also have programs to help education - a service bill where you get free tuition if you agree to a three- or four-year stint in teaching at public schools. I'd close some tax loopholes (don't ask me which ones, since I haven't looked at the tax bills) and replace them with tax incentives for grants to public education.
    I'd require that any company doing business for state, local or federal government (and thus being funded by American tax dollars) be headquartered in the United States and subject to American laws, and a minimum percentage of its expenses be spent in the United States. Fraud would be punished by stiff penalties and fines, and mandatory imprisonment for company officers.
    Little stuff like that.

    Will you force other Americans not to send their hard-earned dollars out of US by not investing in other countries' stock markets? Yes? No? Why?
    This is a tiny percentage of normal Americans, and only an issue for the rich. To be honest, I don't see it as anm issue, but I'd probably want to tax the hell out of any foreign capital gains. But that's just me getting all liberal.
    <grin>
    Joe
    Mapraputa Is
    Leverager of our synergies
    Sheriff

    Joined: Aug 26, 2000
    Posts: 10065
    Joe: I'd also have programs to help education - a service bill where you get free tuition if you agree to a three- or four-year stint in teaching at public schools.
    Interesting. Actually, it's how things worked in the Soviet Union -- college education was free, but most graduates had to work for three years where the country would send them. Often in schools.
    (This is not to criticize your idea; in fact it wasn't such a bad system).
    --------------------
    "Russians are a very logical people: but their logic is often based on mad premises."
    My A-level hell, by Lord Skidelsky
    [ January 09, 2004: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

    Uncontrolled vocabularies
    "I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
    Paul McKenna
    Ugly Redneck
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Jul 08, 2000
    Posts: 1006
    Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
    ....
    Joe[/QB]

    Umm, after reading your post I have two points to make.
    1. You are giving tax "incentives". Taxation by definition is illegal unless it is meant for defense / security purposes. Taxation was a system otherwise meant for oppression of people by the ruling class. A better approach would be to have a bare-minimum tax for the nation and tax the foreign products more to even out the competition to a certain extent. This way you give people who otherwise buy local products a channel to fund other programs that they wish
    2. Education subsidy idea is a good one and that is the major lacking point in America today. The education costs in US are so prohibitively high that they are the main reason much of the American youth are turning away from college degrees etc. If the government should ever subsidize anything it should be education and nothing else.
    Joe Pluta
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    Joined: Jun 23, 2003
    Posts: 1376
    Taxation by definition is illegal unless it is meant for defense / security purposes.
    This is an interesting notion. How exactly do you back it up?
    Joe
    Joe Pluta
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    Joined: Jun 23, 2003
    Posts: 1376
    Interesting. Actually, it's how things worked in the Soviet Union -- college education was free, but most graduates had to work for three years where the country would send them. Often in schools.
    (This is not to criticize your idea; in fact it wasn't such a bad system).

    Just because the Soviets did something didn't automatically make it bad .
    Joe
    Ajeet Jose
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    Joined: Dec 05, 2003
    Posts: 68
    Hey Joe,
    So if every non-US say like this..

    "Eclipse Step by Step" is written by an American don't buy it.
    Better just read the online docs which are written by Canadian at Toronto lab. That is more than enough to know about eclipse.


    Make sure you don't see Lord of the rings, etc.. much of your hard earned money is going to non-US people, man !!
    Careful when buying books, articles etc..read carefully the authors' origin, what is his nationality, etc. Better get a copy of his passport from the publisher ... then comes the content quality. Other wise a good portion of your hard earned money will go out of US, man !!
    I am surprised about your, being an author, such a closed thought in this global village.
    [ January 10, 2004: Message edited by: Ajeet Jose ]
    Joe Pluta
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Jun 23, 2003
    Posts: 1376
    "Eclipse Step by Step" is written by an American don't buy it.
    What a typical response. Did you even bother to read my message, Ajeet?
    All I said was that America should provide short-term tariff relief to those industries where other countries are catching up or have passed us, while we retrain and retool in those industries where we have a clear lead.
    This is about as free trade as you can get.
    Read the post again, Ajeet. I said nothing about boycotting any products, except those produced by inhumane practices. I DID say to give incentives to Americans to buy American goods. If there's an Eclipse book written by an Indian and you gave 10% off of the Indian book in Indian stores and no discount on my book, I'd have no problem with that. It just means my book has to be 10% better to be sold in your country.
    If you're going to use an analogy, please at least take the time to make it make sense. This unidimensional knee-jerk stuff is not very helpful to the discussion.
    The real analogy to the H-1B, for instance, would be to bring my book in to your country and put it on sale in Indian bookstores at 1/3 the cost of any competing Indian book. Would that be fair?
    Joe
    Ajeet Jose
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    Joined: Dec 05, 2003
    Posts: 68
    The real analogy to the H-1B, for instance, would be to bring my book in to your country and put it on sale in Indian bookstores at 1/3 the cost of any competing Indian book. Would that be fair?

    It did happen. US books are sold at 1/10th of the original price. Often less than Indian author books. Thereby killed Indian authors publishing in Indian publishers. No publisher is ready to publish. Because they have the low cast US editions.
    While other fields like Science and medicine, Indian authors are writting and that gets published.
    ......Just don't escape by saying 'quality' on CS. It is not the case.
    We can not write because of the flood of US 'special price' editions.
    We do not scream. Thats the market that commands. We just buy with no cry.
    We gave up writting for a while. We took another target..off-shore development.
    [ January 10, 2004: Message edited by: Ajeet Jose ]
    Joe Pluta
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Jun 23, 2003
    Posts: 1376
    US books are sold at 1/10th of the original price. Often less than Indian author books.
    Documented examples please?
    First one I found:
    Competitive Advantage: Creating and Sustaining Superior Performance
    On Amazon.com: $26.25
    On FirstAndSecond.com: 1082.25 rupees
    Definitely not 1/10th the price.

    I thought I'd try fiction:
    Four Blind Mice (by the very popular James Patterson)
    On Amazon.com: $19.57
    On FirstAndSecond.com: 1445 rupees (or about $30)
    It's 50% MORE expensive, not one tenth the price. Perhaps you might want to reconsider your comment, or at least come up with some facts.

    Joe
    [ January 10, 2004: Message edited by: Joe Pluta ]
    Ajeet Jose
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    Joined: Dec 05, 2003
    Posts: 68
    By the way, I am talking about core IT/CS books not fictions, business strategy, Medicine, Science..
    as said before in other field Indian authors get published.
    Letus take..
    A Programmer's guide to Java Certification
    Mughal Khalid A.
    on Amazon: $44.99
    on FirstAndSecond.com: Rs. 470 (or about $9.6) - Special edition
    on prakash books: Rs.499
    http://www.prakashbooks.com/
    on the street less than Rs 400
    There are several local republishing companies much cheaper than this online store.
    see facts yourself..
    Tell me.. If I want to write Java certification book for Indian publisher
    I have to compete with this 'low priced' US book. The publisher prefer the low priced 'off-shore' thing than the 'on-shore' product.
    Isn't the 'off-shoring' analogy same?
    So, if an Indian guy says (in your voice)
    - The IT publishing in India is dead because of cheap priced off-shore books.
    - It is inhumane practice, I will buy only Indian author books and thereby save IT this dying industry..blah..blah
    - continuing to purchase products manufactured only in India
    - buy Indian, build India
    Who is the looser?
    - He is not going to have a good book
    - He will have insufficent knowledge, ultimately he will fail in exam or career.
    This is a global village.
    Market drives everything, we have to adapt to it
    Big boys decide where should be what and change whenever they want..
    Got the point...
    [ January 10, 2004: Message edited by: Ajeet Jose ]
    Mapraputa Is
    Leverager of our synergies
    Sheriff

    Joined: Aug 26, 2000
    Posts: 10065
    Ajeet: US books are sold at 1/10th of the original price. Often less than Indian author books.
    Joe: Documented examples please?

    Out of curiosity, I checked prices for IT books printed in Russia (translated):
    M.Fowler's "Refactoring" - $10
    Brooks "The Mythical Man-month" - $6
    In the "Certification" section prices vary from $2 to $13.
    There are a few books written by Russians, all in the middle of the price diapason (~$6).
    Ajeet Jose
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Dec 05, 2003
    Posts: 68
    Joe,
    See how the cheap priced off-shore books killing local IT publishing industry all over the world. Then why not the rest-of-the-world do off-shore coding?
    [ January 10, 2004: Message edited by: Ajeet Jose ]
    Matt Cao
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Apr 03, 2003
    Posts: 715
    Originally posted by Ajeet Jose:
    By the way, I am talking about core IT/CS books not fictions, business strategy, Medicine, Science..
    as said before in other field Indian authors get published.
    Letus take..
    A Programmer's guide to Java Certification
    Mughal Khalid A.
    on Amazon: $44.99
    on FirstAndSecond.com: Rs. 470 (or about $9.6) - Special edition
    on prakash books: Rs.499
    http://www.prakashbooks.com/
    on the street less than Rs 400
    There are several local republishing companies much cheaper than this online store.
    see facts yourself..
    Tell me.. If I want to write Java certification book for Indian publisher
    I have to compete with this 'low priced' US book. The publisher prefer the low priced 'off-shore' thing than the 'on-shore' product.
    Isn't the 'off-shoring' analogy same?
    So, if an Indian guy says (in your voice)
    - The IT publishing in India is dead because of cheap priced off-shore books.
    - It is inhumane practice, I will buy only Indian author books and thereby save IT this dying industry..blah..blah
    - continuing to purchase products manufactured only in India
    - buy Indian, build India
    Who is the looser?
    - He is not going to have a good book
    - He will have insufficent knowledge, ultimately he will fail in exam or career.
    This is a global village.
    Market drives everything, we have to adapt to it
    Big boys decide where should be what and change whenever they want..
    Got the point...
    [ January 10, 2004: Message edited by: Ajeet Jose ]

    Hi Ajeet,
    Your point is sound but your examples is not so...
    1. How's big and reputation of the publisher? The reason western publisher able to sell cheap because they are wiser in marketing.
    2. Is the author and the topic origin compliment to each others? Reader could care less the author has so many advance degrees with years of experiences but writing a foreign topic, he/she may well building a table from those books.
    3. Is Indian author creative as well as so many of you? Is any Indian author have done shortcut technique, cheat code, or something similar like Kathy Sierra with Head First Java and so?
    Regards,
    MCao
    Joe Pluta
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    Joined: Jun 23, 2003
    Posts: 1376
    Books published in America are not sold for lower, Ajeet. Books from America publishers will have long delays sometimes as much as 14-19 days, and will generally cost 2000 rupees or more.
    On the other hand, "republished" books - the "special Indian edition" books published locally in India, by Indian firms such as Tata McGraw Hill or Galgotia Publications, or what I guess are Indian subsidiaries of the major publishing houses, and cost as low as 200 rupees. This is the price your companies charge your people for books published on your soil.
    Going through the Java books, less than a third - somewhere around 20 or 30 percent - have Special Indian Editions. And even those aren't 1/10th - Head First Java is 350 rupees - that's $7 or one fourth of the $28 it costs here (I wonder if Bert and Kathy know their book is selling for $7 a pop!). Not all are this cheap, either - many special edition books are as high as $15 or $20; cheaper than the Amazon version, but not by a lot.
    But back to the issue: books published in India cost less. This makes sense - labor and raw materials prices are lower. The publishers don't charge less for books published in America - in fact, they cost more. It's only these books that are published in India using what I suspect are Indian employees and Indian infrastructure.
    It's not like American publishers are flooding your market with products priced cheaper than those at home. Instead, Indian companies or Indian subsidiares of American companies bought the rights to sell locally published copies of the book and are selling them cheaply.
    Joe
    Joe Pluta
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Jun 23, 2003
    Posts: 1376
    See how the cheap priced off-shore books killing local IT publishing industry all over the world.
    These are not "cheap priced off-shore books", Ajeet. In your case and I suspect in Map's case as well, the low-priced books are printed on your soil by local employees. I suspect that the books thus priced are in line with other books priced locally.
    What you want is for your book published in India to sell for 2500 rupees, and that's just silly. I have no idea what the quality of paper is, what the quality of type or printsetting, binding, or anything else. I know that the German version of my book is not even perfect-bound, it's in a three-ring binder.
    I have no control over the quality and price of books published in India, Ajeet. I suspect it has to do with the cost of living, though. You want your book to go for 2500 rupees, which is roughly one tenth the monthly salary of a beginning Java programmer. The same person in the US would make about $3000/mo at the very least, and so if the prices were based on cost of living, the book would cost $300.
    When you talk about global economies, you have to compare the local costs, Ajeet, and the fact that your country has four times as many people as mine living in one third the space at 1/10th the cost of living.
    Everything is not equal, even in the global village.
    Joe
    [ January 10, 2004: Message edited by: Joe Pluta ]
    Ajeet Jose
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Dec 05, 2003
    Posts: 68
    Is any Indian author have done shortcut technique, cheat code, or something similar like Kathy Sierra with Head First Java and so?

    As I said earlier..we gaveup writting books. Because the local publishers prefer the cheaper off-shore stuff. Our target is not book authoring but software authoring.
    I guess, i do not have to show proof of creativity of Indians. Everyone of you knew it.
    Well, I do not want this thread turn to be racial attacks..
    Just talk about IT market dynamics and how everyone us have to adjust for our mutual benefit.
    [ January 11, 2004: Message edited by: Ajeet Jose ]
    Ajeet Jose
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Dec 05, 2003
    Posts: 68
    Just to keep everyone back to original track of the thread..
    We are talking about 'off-shoring' with an analogy of book publishing..
    Instead, Indian companies or Indian subsidiares of American companies bought the rights to sell locally published copies of the book and are selling them cheaply.

    Thereby prefering cheaper off-shore stuff than the local stuff, killing the local authors who are not intented to sell on par with US print. But intented to sell on par with local economy.
    Global village doesn't mean everything is equal. It means everything is reachable, accessible anywhere anytime but may not be at the same price.
    To me, the market takes advantage of this in 'off-shoring'. It is not wrong.
    BTW, I am not a book author nor intented to be, i am just picking up Joe's analogy.
    [ January 11, 2004: Message edited by: Ajeet Jose ]
    Joe Pluta
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Jun 23, 2003
    Posts: 1376
    Thereby prefering cheaper off-shore stuff than the local stuff,
    You're deliberately ignoring my point. They print books on Indian soil using Indian materials and labor for 250 rupees, roughly the hourly wage of an Indian programmer. The same book printed in America using American materials and labor costs about US$25, again just about the hourly wage of an American programmer.
    Why is this wrong?
    How much does a typical book written by an Indian author and printed by an Indian publisher cost? I'm guessing it's closer to 200 rupees than 2000,
    Joe
    Matt Cao
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Apr 03, 2003
    Posts: 715
    Originally posted by Ajeet Jose:

    As I said earlier..we gaveup writting books. Because the local publishers prefer the cheaper off-shore stuff. Our target is not book authoring but software authoring.
    I guess, i do not have to show proof of creativity of Indians. Everyone of you knew it.
    Well, I do not want this thread turn to be racial attacks..
    Just talk about IT market dynamics and how everyone us have to adjust for our mutual benefit.
    [ January 11, 2004: Message edited by: Ajeet Jose ]

    Hi,
    Again. Your point is SOUND just your example is not so.
    Understood that you use book publishing as an analogy. What is the use if your analogy is defective.
    Indian authors gave up writing books because of the publishers not clever in marketing strategy as comparing to westerner publishers. The materials they chose are foreign, they need to write something that local fostered. Their competitive edges are understand the depth of the material, then tweak in Indian point of view.
    Of course, the example using Indian author anyone with common sense should know how to substitute with whatever nationality they preferred.
    Regards,
    MCao
    [ January 11, 2004: Message edited by: Matt Cao ]
     
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    subject: US tech majors defend outsourcing
     
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