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exporting America

Mark Ju
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Joined: May 20, 2003
Posts: 117
There's a lot of talk in these forums about outsourcing and the pros and cons. I'd like to see what everyone thinks about all the American companies sprouting up overseas, especially Asia. For example, my last trip to China a couple of years ago, I saw lines comnig out the door at KFC; several packed McDonald's, where one manager tried to swipe my camera away as I was taking a picture (i've never seen a McDonald's with a Chinese menu); ate at Outback Steakhouse in the Mariott I was staying at; got dissed at Pizza Hut because I did not meet the dress code; and bought a nice Spalding basketball along with a pair of Nikes for my cousin (I spent $120 US...and the sporting goods store was absolutely full of customers).
Now, it seems to me that Asia, while taking the high tech jobs, are also spending a good deal of their money on American goods (which support the local economy, but ultimately roll up to improve the workers in the US). It seems that the flow of capital goes both ways, and if US companies play its cards right, the outsourcing trend doesn't necessarily have to be a pure loss.
Please share your experiences or thoughts...
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Those Nikes weren't made in the US so other than putting some money in the hands of a few American billionaires how do you think buying Nike helps the American worker?


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Mark Ju
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Joined: May 20, 2003
Posts: 117
What about the marketing/HR/finance/etc/etc and all the non-manufacturing employees in the US? When Philip Knight gets his paycheck, he shops at the local malls, donates to local charities and buys from local companies.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Chris G Lee:
What about the marketing/HR/finance/etc/etc and all the non-manufacturing employees in the US? When Philip Knight gets his paycheck, he shops at the local malls, donates to local charities and buys from local companies.

So you are a believer in the trickle down theory? You don't suppose that after the first billion or so that maybe Knight puts his money in offshore banks?
Mark Ju
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 20, 2003
Posts: 117
Yes, I tend to believe trickle down. I believe the drivers of the US Economy are its top hitters - the big boys who have the cash, who create jobs, who buy and donate, who start companies and spend millions on Super Bowl ads.
They make a lot, but they create and support a lot of jobs as well. In essence, they are the innovators (or at least they fund the innovators) that the US needs to thrive in the future.
If they choose to invest or deposit their money internationally, that is more the fault of the US Government not providing enough incentive rather than the fault of other countries.
I believe the job loss problem can be solved creatively and domestically, without legislation to stop globalization (outsourcing).
Joe Pluta
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Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
I believe the job loss problem can be solved creatively and domestically, without legislation to stop globalization (outsourcing).
You do understand the difference between outsourcing, where a foreign company provides services remotely using its own infrastructure and employees, and the H- and L- visa programs, where foreign workers work in American companies on American infrastructure, right?
Outsourcing is not as big a threat. It's a problem, but it tends to be self-correcting as in the Dell customer support fiasco. Issues of project management, time zones, language and so on all combine to make outsourcing far less attractive than the pure monetary incentives might make it seem at first.
Visas, on the other hand, are atrocious. They effectively bring in foreign workers working in many cases well under the prevailing wage to displace American workers. These are the jobs we are particularly upset about, and we are not asking for legislation to stop them. We are asking to REMOVE the legislation that CREATES the visa programs, or at least to enforce the governing laws. No American shoul ever lose their job to an H- or L- visa holder, period.
Joe
Mark Ju
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 20, 2003
Posts: 117
Joe,
Yup, I sure do understand the difference between outsourcing and H1B visas. As an American programmer, I can definitely see the need for curbing working visas for foreign workers.
However, I will readily admit that foreign workers bring a different perspective to work. I'm not just talking about interesting conversation between co-workers; I'm talking about seeing problems and opportunities in different ways. But is this extra "insight" worth the pains of unemployed American workers? I'm not sure...
I'm for curbing, but I believe there is indeed value in having a diverse workforce and totally removing the insight of foreign workers would limit innovation.
Mark Ju
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 20, 2003
Posts: 117
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
[b]No American shoul ever lose their job to an H- or L- visa holder, period.
Joe

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. If a visa holder who innovates, produces quality work, and creates opportunities for more jobs and plans to live his/her life in the US, I don't see why this person replacing the lousiest American programmer is bad for America.
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. If a visa holder who innovates, produces quality work, and creates opportunities for more jobs and plans to live his/her life in the US, I don't see why this person replacing the lousiest American programmer is bad for America.
Can you guarantee that only "the lousiest" American programmer is being displaced? Of course not. Then you are countering a general statement with a specific exception, which is pretty close to a straw man argument.
But even so, to address it I perhaps should have said "no QUALIFIED American worker". And this position is unassailable, because the programs were specifically put in place to allow foreign workers ONLY if no qualified American was available.
If you want to compete for American jobs, do it the old fashioned way: get your citizenship first.
Joe
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
I'm for curbing, but I believe there is indeed value in having a diverse workforce and totally removing the insight of foreign workers would limit innovation.
And that's what the Internet is for, and forums like this. You don't need to take my job in order to give me insight. We can share thoughts and concepts on these wonderful global networks.
As to the insight of foreign workers, I have no problem in them competing as long as they're citizens. They're still foreign born with all the inherent insights of the foreign worker, while at the same time they've shown the commitment to this country that gives them the right (in my opinion) to compete.
Joe
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:

If you want to compete for American jobs, do it the old fashioned way: get your citizenship first.
Joe

Hi,
France did this way long time ago started from 19th to mid 20th Century. Are they the top dog on global market?
By reading that I assume you have not working with defense/government related industry. In anything related to secret clearance, the applicant better have American Citizenship. Is the product pricetag related to the limitation pool of talents? It is no doubt because of the sensitive nature of the business causing American taxpayers arms and legs. Are you willing to share Uncle Sam your last piece of bread? Luckily, there are laws prohibit Uncle Sam to take your last piece of bread. But law could change.
Currently Congress prohibit US companies outsource the works to foreign companies. But if the number of players keep on increasing, we will see Congress will change their stands too.
Regards,
MCao
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
[b]If you want to compete for American jobs, do it the old fashioned way: get your citizenship first.
Joe

Small problem there: you cannot get citizenship without a job (and rightly so) unless you're a political refugee (and those tend not to be the type of people arriving on H1B visas or married to an American citizen (like that woman who was arrested last week for arranging paper marriages for money in order to get people from south America their US paperwork).
So if I want my American citizenship I'd first have to get a job in the US which requires an H1B or similar and a company to sponsor me, or I have to marry an American bride (and even then I may not be allowed into the country unless I can prove to immigration that I didn't just marry her to get my residence permit, which is getting ever tougher and rightly so).


42
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Actually, the only requirement for becoming a citizen is to have a valid green card for five years. The trick is to get a green card, but there are many ways, which include asylum as you suggested, or corporate sponsored visas. They also include family visas, religious visas, and ecven lottery visas.
In any event, the idea is that American jobs are not available to the lowest bidder globally. You need to earn the privilege to compete for American jobs, and this takes time.
Joe
Tim Holloway
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jun 25, 2001
Posts: 16022
    
  20

Originally posted by Chris G Lee:
... they are the innovators (or at least they fund the innovators) that the US needs to thrive in the future.

Yup. And at the moment the innovators being funded are in Bangalore.
Do you really think people like this do their shopping at Wal-Mart, as opposed to building mansions full of imported Italian marble laid down by illegal immigrant workers?
Or buy 7500 rolls of Charmin the way the 7500 laid-off IBM workers do?


Customer surveys are for companies who didn't pay proper attention to begin with.
Mark Ju
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 20, 2003
Posts: 117
I can't say how individuals would choose to spend their wealth, but I do know that business around rich areas (where rich people live) tend to do well. School districts, roads, and small businesses all tend to be better in areas where the rich people live.
Therefore, I am goign to assume that the rich people reinvest where they live.
 
 
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