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Can Indians and Americans live in peace?

Karthik Guru
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Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 1209
Given the fact that any outsourcing related post ultimately results in some kind of a fight, i wonder if Indians and Americans can live in peace?
Like it or not , the interaction between people will increase with some jobs coming over to India. I wonder if that w'd also be as acrimonious?
The political leaders from either side seem to be getting along very well though. But can the same be said about people?
frank davis
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Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 1479
Originally posted by karthik Guru:
Given the fact that any outsourcing related post ultimately results in some kind of a fight, i wonder if Indians and Americans can live in peace?
Like it or not , the interaction between people will increase with some jobs coming over to India. I wonder if that w'd also be as acrimonious?
The political leaders from either side seem to be getting along very well though. But can the same be said about people?

I don't think most people have any personal feelings of animosity to Indians. Even if I complain about outsourcing, I realize the Indians are just looking for opportunities just as I would or anyone else. I have no hard feelings. However, at this time I have a govt job and feel I have some degree of job security also, but I don't think that has changed my viewpoint.
HS Thomas
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Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Americans will be applying for jobs in India , China and Russia and by default everyone else will everywhere else.
The infrastructure is in place to make them feel at home.Home to me is a Starbucks outlet.
[ January 14, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Mark Fletcher
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Joined: Dec 08, 2001
Posts: 897
Outsourcing is a thorny issue that keeps cropping up on this Forum and Jobs Discussion.
I think everyone needs to realise that
1) Outsourcing is not going to go away. If you feel your job is in danger, well fore-warned is fore-armed.
2) Not everything is going to be outsourced. Companies are still in the phase where the mindset is "Ooh we can save money if we outsource! Lets outsource everything!". There are documented incidents on the internet where companies such as Dell and HP have outsourced parts of their organisation to other countries, and then have had to move them back home because it hasnt worked out as expected. Also, Software development is a risky process. Outsourcing does not reduce that risk.
3) Based on 2), an equilibrium will be reached. There will still be software jobs in your home country.
4) The pre-millenium boom days are gone until the "next-big-thing" comes along. Deal with it. Accept it and move on.
5) There will be another "next-big-thing". Whether its in Bio-technology or nano-technology, or whether its ripping out all those legacy systems and replacing them with shiny new .NET, J2EE or (insert your preferred technology here), surely a good proportion jobs created in these ventures will replace the jobs lost to outsourcing?
Personally I dont have anything against Indians. My last place of employment employed an Indian, and he was a great lad. I still keep in touch with him. I also love Indian cuisine, and its true, the way to a mans heart is through his stomach .
Peace,
Mark
[ January 14, 2004: Message edited by: Mark Fletcher ]

Mark Fletcher - http://www.markfletcher.org/blog
I had some Java certs, but they're too old now...
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
A friend of mine is having his job outsourced to India. He was told to go to India and train his replacement and be fired in 3 months or don't go and be fired today. What effect do you think that this will have on his opinion of India?
HS Thomas
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Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Whose idea was it in the first place ? Whoever , it has a boomerang effect.
Your friend will hopefully have the insight to realise the Indians didn't start this off-shoring business. Off-shoring is going to be the way of ife. Jobs will go and return in some other form.In fact I'd say that jobs are a commodity.
The Doplar Effect :
===================
If the galaxy has a red shift, then it is moving away from you and if it has a blue shift, it is moving towards you. Of course, you would have to chart the shift over long periods of time before you know if it is moving away or towards you.
[ January 14, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by HS Thomas:
Whose idea was it in the first place ?
The CIO of his company who is from, you guessed it, India.
Terimaki Tojay
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Joined: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 165
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
The CIO of his company who is from, you guessed it, India.

It's funny you call it that way. In the past, when somebody touted achievements of Indians, I guess it was you or Jason who pointed out that no, they are "Americans" of Indian origin.
And so now, is this manager not an American of Indian origin?
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:
And so now, is this manager not an American of Indian origin?
No, he was born in India. I don't believe that he is an American citizen.
Terimaki Tojay
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Joined: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 165
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
No, he was born in India. I don't believe that he is an American citizen.

I don't know but I'll bet that he is a naturalized american citizen. It is not possible for an H1B to run his own company and it is very difficult for a green card holder to do that. So if he is the CIO, I think he is an American citizen. You may want to confirm this with your friend.
So if he were a naturalized american citizen, you would call him American. Right?
Also, outsourcing decision has nothing to do with nationality of the CEO. It is a decision that the CEO has to make taking in consideration his profits. So I don't understand what you meant when you wrote, "....,you guessed it, ...". How could somebody guess that? Do you believe that every company that outsources to India has an Indian CIO and every company that outsources to China has Chinese CIO???
Please don't make absurd statements that stereotype people and spread misinformation and hatred.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:
Please don't make absurd statements that stereotype people and spread misinformation and hatred.

I don't think that this was an absurd statement that sterotypes people. And it certainly doesn't spread misinformation. I stated a fact, the CIO is from India and he is outsourcing my friend's job to India. I never stated that the CIO was "Indian" or "American" or anything else. Explain to me how what I said is "misinformation".
By thw way, the CIO is a naturalized American citizen but that does not change the truth of what I wrote which is that the CIO is "from India".
Terimaki Tojay
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Joined: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 165
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

I don't think that this was an absurd statement that sterotypes people. And it certainly doesn't spread misinformation. I stated a fact, the CIO is from India and he is outsourcing my friend's job to India. I never stated that the CIO was "Indian" or "American" or anything else. Explain to me how what I said is "misinformation".
By thw way, the CIO is a naturalized American citizen but that does not change the truth of what I wrote which is that the CIO is "from India".

You missed the point or you are faking that you missed the point. What do you mean by "..., you guessed it,...". Please read the full post above.
Can I say something like this: "I was mugged last night. You know who the mugger was? You guessed it, a black guy". Would that be appripriate?
Sadanand Murthy
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Joined: Nov 26, 2003
Posts: 382
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
The CIO of his company who is from, you guessed it, India.

No, I did not guess it. My 1st guess actually was that he was an American. There are a lot of companies that have outsourced to India, China & Russia. And I can assure you that the CIO/CTO/CEO of all these companies are not Indians or Americans of Indian origin.
This statement of yours sounds like : "My job got outsourced to India. So the who made this decision or had a significant impact on the decision must have been India." Sounds like : "What do you expect; he is an Indian." This mentality is very dangerous.
For anyone to become the CIO of a company one must have a lot of credentials (unless you are talking about a body shop or a dot com). One must have worked years to get that kind of credentials. H1 visas have a 6-year max limit on them. I doubt anyone can get the kind of credentials required to become a CIO in that time frame. And even if one did, what happens after the 6-year max is over? One will have to leave. So, one cannot then continue as a CIO. Ergo, the CIO must have either been a permanent resident or a naturalized citizen. Now, if you are imputing his decision to his Indian origin, then that, to my mind, is racist. I could be wrong; may be I'm a wee bit sensitive.


Ever Existing, Ever Conscious, Ever-new Bliss
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Sadanand Murthy:
This statement of yours sounds like : "My job got outsourced to India. So the who made this decision or had a significant impact on the decision must have been India." Sounds like : "What do you expect; he is an Indian." This mentality is very dangerous.
You guys are way too sensitive. Read the topic of this forum. That is why I said "you guessed it". It had nothing to do with whether an Indian was more likely to outsource to India and everything to do with the topic, "Can Indians and Americans live in peace".
Now if you are finished whining, can we get back to the real topic?
:roll:
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:
Can I say something like this: "I was mugged last night. You know who the mugger was? You guessed it, a black guy". Would that be appripriate?
It might be if we were talking about relations between blacks and whites. Because otherwise why even bring it to the discussion?
Suppose we were talking about problems between blacks and whites. And I said that a friend of mine has a bad opinion of black people because he was mugged and the mugger was, you guessed it, a black man. Would that be racist of me? (Ignoring the fact that it might be racist of my friend)
[ January 14, 2004: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]
Tim Holloway
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jun 25, 2001
Posts: 15639
    
  15

Personally, I don't care WHAT country the CEO's from, and for that matter, WHERE the job goes. I'm all for growth of IT wherever it can grow.
All I complain about is that I'd like to be left with some sort of livable income myself, and preferably doing something I like doing.
I can't help it that what I like doing most is IT.


Customer surveys are for companies who didn't pay proper attention to begin with.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Before this gets moved to Job Discussion, can we get back on to the topic at hand. What effect will outsourcing have on relations between Amercians and Indians?
[ January 14, 2004: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]
John Smith
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Joined: Oct 08, 2001
Posts: 2937
TP: A friend of mine is having his job outsourced to India. He was told to go to India and train his replacement and be fired in 3 months or don't go and be fired today. What effect do you think that this will have on his opinion of India?
Your friend has a low opinion of India because his job was outsourced to India? Wow. I have very low expectations for your friend.
Bela Bardak
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Joined: Jan 02, 2004
Posts: 179
Originally posted by Sadanand Murthy:

No, I did not guess it. My 1st guess actually was that he was an American. There are a lot of companies that have outsourced to India, China & Russia. And I can assure you that the CIO/CTO/CEO of all these companies are not Indians or Americans of Indian origin.
This statement of yours sounds like : "My job got outsourced to India. So the who made this decision or had a significant impact on the decision must have been India." Sounds like : "What do you expect; he is an Indian." This mentality is very dangerous.

Yup. US or European-born CIO's are perfectly able to do things like this, even when they don't wish to for various good reasons. I suspect much of this is being driven from other departments such as line management or accounting. I suspect the CIO's (of whatever nationality) often have a firmer grasp of what the risks are from a software perspective than the cost-cutters do.
Their choice may be between outsourcing other's jobs or losing their own job to someone who will outsource. I sometime suspect I'm seeing signs of subtle sabotage, of people deliberately doing 'dumb' outsourcing. Moving things which probably aren't wise to move (after suitable warnings and other CYA).
Think about it from the CIO's perspective. Some of his 'empire' is being moved to India. If it works they may move the whole thing and 'downsize' (or at least downgrade) his position. Not good, even is he doesn't give a curse about what happens to the mangy curs who cut his code! Soooo....
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
Your friend has a low opinion of India because his job was outsourced to India? Wow. I have very low expectations for your friend.

And where in my post did I say anything about my friend's opinion of India? I asked a question that apparently is not going to get answered. Since this is reverting to another boring thread about outsourcing I'm moving to Mark's domain and I won't be participating any further.
Stephen Pride
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Joined: Sep 14, 2000
Posts: 121
Originally posted by HS Thomas:
Americans will be applying for jobs in India , China and Russia and by default everyone else will everywhere else.

This is something I would like to get confirmation on. I read two different articles that mentioned that the Indian government does not allow American (or other?) IT workers in their country to work (permanently?).


SCJP
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Oh boy, more fun in my forum. Many of you actively follow other threads here, but for any who don't this is a gentle reminder that this forum is not Meaningless Drivel (which is where I'm assuming this was first posted). So please remember to post politely. The temperature's been rising in the Job Discussion forum of late.
--Mark
Sadanand Murthy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 26, 2003
Posts: 382
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

I asked a question that apparently is not going to get answered.

I went back to your 1st post & saw this question:
What effect do you think that this will have on his opinion of India?

I thought this was a purely rhetorical question. If not, then this question cannot be answered by anyone other than your friend. And if your friend has formed an opinion about India based on this specific event then I do agree with Eugene Kononov's post where he said :
I have very low expectations for your friend.

I cursorily scanned through the rest of your posts on this topic & didn't find another question.
Or the question that is not getting answered in this various posts is the one that Karthik originally asked? If so, the relations between Indians & Americans should not be impacted by outsourcing; but they will. Some will outright hate the Indians because of the emotional factor & some will be more objective and realize that the outsourcing decisions are made by corporate executives.
Bhau Mhatre
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Joined: Jun 11, 2003
Posts: 199
Originally posted by Stephen Pride:
This is something I would like to get confirmation on. I read two different articles that mentioned that the Indian government does not allow American (or other?) IT workers in their country to work (permanently?).

I don't know exaclty who is allowed to work and who's not in India. Since we never had American kind of economy anytime after we got independence till date, this hasen't been a big issue (atleast as far as I know) and hence isn't much talked about or written about. So I don't know.
But I tell you, I would be the happiest person here if Americans really wished to come to my sweet home country to work and settle there. That would simply mean that our economy is soaring at such a high altitude. I would welcome them with open arms. But I know, they will not want to come to my country Some will only point out the problems in our laws about immigration which were put in place long time back for different reasons. But even if we changed those laws now, I think, most of them, the Americans, will not want to come. So...
... back to reality. Even after all these rosy pictures painted by the media about offshoring benefits to the developing countries, you'll observe in other threads people are still passionate about keeping alive the H1B concept Which means something, right?


-Mumbai cha Bhau
Rufus BugleWeed
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Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
I hate all the Indians, except the ones I know personally. They seem like pretty regular people. Maybe, I could have more than liked Himabindu, I think that's how she spelled her name. She was so sweet.
Varun Khanna
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Joined: May 30, 2002
Posts: 1400
Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
I hate all the Indians, except the ones I know personally.


Advise: Don't tell this to Himabindu


- Varun
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
I hate all the Indians, except the ones I know personally. They seem like pretty regular people. Maybe, I could have more than liked Himabindu, I think that's how she spelled her name. She was so sweet.

Cheers mate! I hate you too! Are we even?
Between, my feeling about this issue is strong, and I honestly believe Indians and Americans can and will co-exists, and I wish I could say its for the better of both, but being a non-American, and having never been to America, I dare say �both�. So, let me put it this way � IMHO, Any association between Americans and Indians is extremely useful for us Indians.
Lets face it � May be except in the area of �Software Development�, Indians has a long way to go to reach the first world standards of almost everything that Americans have been enjoying for last many decades. The modern nation of America, its ambitious people, its rise as a super power, near elimination of racism, advancements in all fields of science and technology, living standards, honesty and integrity of people, professionalism of doing business, and exporting their ideas and talent all over the world making theirs and others lives better (eg: oil explorations of the middle east), there�s way too much for Indians to learn from America, and with a society as old and matured as that of India, the way to go forward is not to experiment and live through everything America did in last 100 years but simply borrow ideas and from them and to integrate it into their own. For Indians who have experienced corruption and other social evils first hand, a transition from the India as we know today to a first world country might seem impossible, but with closer ties to first world countries, and educated younger generation starting off at better today, will one day make India another place to be, country to migrate to, land of opportunities.
This forum, by its definition is for folks who make their livelihoods solely by programming and in other areas of IT spectrum. America or India is a lot more than IT. For us, IT people, our world is just this, and issues such as outsourcing or new technologies would look extremely important, but when we consider this as part of the GDP of both nations, I hope you will agree that its quite not big enough to initiate such an issues between the largest democracy and the largest economy in the world.
My �0.02


[ flickr ]
sunitha reghu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 937
Good for you...
I bet you learned this nursery rhym
"I hate you
you hate me
we all hate each other"
Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
I hate all the Indians, except the ones I know personally. They seem like pretty regular people. Maybe, I could have more than liked Himabindu, I think that's how she spelled her name. She was so sweet.
D Kumar
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Joined: Jun 10, 2003
Posts: 93
Himabindu
Who is this?
Varun Khanna
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 30, 2002
Posts: 1400
No surprises if this thread is transferred back to Meaningless Drivel
Originally posted by D Kumar:
Himabindu
Who is this?

She was so sweet
Ajeet Jose
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 05, 2003
Posts: 68
let me add some fuel to the fire...
RedHat CEO to visit India...
Q: For what?...
A: for what else..
Ajeet Jose
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 05, 2003
Posts: 68
love to see Joe in this topic...
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Which brings us back to the question "can Indians and Americans live in peace ?"
Q in 2050: What was India's greatest contribution to IT ?
A: It's demise.. (Just joking)
[ January 15, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Ajeet Jose
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 05, 2003
Posts: 68
that is funny.. IT in itself is demised
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
I've seen enough of Rufus' postings to believe that he's joking, but let's be extra careful in a topic that has such potential to explode. I was about the close the thread but it seems no one hasyet taken his post seriously.
--Mark
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
I have worked with many Indians over the years, as well as natives of Russia, Pakistan and China. I managed a project that was translated into eight languages, and worked with a number of foreign nationals there as well. Most were naturalized citizens, but that doesn't alter the fact that I actually enjoy interacting with people of different cultures. One of my favorite pasttimes was making one of the more dour Russian immigrants I worked with laugh because of my butchery of the Russian language .
I have nothing against any person because of their race, creed, or most any other issue of birth or belief. I have consistently said that in general the people I have the problems with are the abusers of the visa programs, and this means the companies that skirt the laws and the visa brokers who help them. The visa holders themselves can hardly be blamed for jumping on a salary that might be many times what they could make locally.
So, can Americans and Indians work together? Certainly! But as long as the current abuses are in place, we will probably have a tougher time of it than we did back in the Roaring 90s.
Joe
Tara Bhattacharjee
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 25, 2003
Posts: 36
This is a stupid thread-
I have been working with Americans for 12 years, dating one for the last 3 years- no one ever made me feel like I was lesser human being because of my Indian origin. It takes self-confidence, creativity and initiative to do well in the US, no one mistreats you purely because you are Indian.
ChanSan Mehbubani
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 30, 2003
Posts: 108
Originally posted by D Kumar:
Himabindu
Who is this?

Himabindu is into .Sweet Himabindu.I don't know what Rufus likes in that!! .


I am a Papad
D Kumar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 10, 2003
Posts: 93
who am I

who are u?
I dunno many people here..

hiambindu and tangla.
Joe , do you outsource
D Kumar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 10, 2003
Posts: 93
Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
I hate all the Indians, except the ones I know personally. They seem like pretty regular people. Maybe, I could have more than liked Himabindu, I think that's how she spelled her name. She was so sweet.


i also wanna to meet her. Rufus,please arrange for a meeting.
:roll:
 
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