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Outsourcing

Robin Davies
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 26, 2003
Posts: 64
I continuously here people complaining about outsourcing to india.
China is the real threat.When they come in, we are all going to be hit!!
The BCS state in one of their recent articles,that China is currently engaged in setting up a bamouth outsourcing organisation.
When this rolls into full motion.
PRAY
(UK Resident)


BSc, MSc
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Hi,
I am not in China, but I sense something wrong in your claim.
1. What is BCS? Bowling Champion Series
2. China still busy to build her infrastructure. When she ready, then we have a new ball game.
3. China does not need badmouth any outsourcing organization because she already knew how the system worked aka. HongKong.
4. Everyone keep an eye on China already no need for you to panic.
Regards,
MCao
Robin Davies
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 26, 2003
Posts: 64
For your information BCS stands for British Computer Society - World Recognised. If they say something, i will take it seriously!
I don't know what your problem is PAL!
Good luck with life!
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Hello,
My life is already good. Thanks. Now, I know BCS standed for. Everyday learn a new thing.
Regards,
MCao
ChanSan Mehbubani
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 30, 2003
Posts: 108
BCS also stands for Bachelor of Computer Science.


I am a Papad
Steven Broadbent
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 400
One thing that may slow this process down is knowledge of English. It is much more common in India than in China.
How will Indian outsourcing business react when the work begins to trickle to China because India is no longer economically viable??


"....bigmouth strikes again, and I've got no right to take my place with the human race...."<p>SCJP 1.4
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
Originally posted by Steven Broadbent:
How will Indian outsourcing business react when the work begins to trickle to China because India is no longer economically viable??

That's exactly why Indian ranchers keep reading outsourcing related threads over and again! I am actively collecting all sorts of reasons from here, so that I can use these very same arguments against who ever is benefiting from outsourcing then! Its only a matter of time, and we all know that!


[ flickr ]
himanshu patel
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 03, 2003
Posts: 205
One does not see India as cheap labour.There are many cheap labour country including china,pakistan,bangladesh,phillipines and some are even cheaper than India.But why everyone keep coming in India and not going to other country.That is becouse India's capability and reputation to complete project with highest quality and cheap cost.
And Indian labours are not cheaper.The valuation of Indian currency against USD is cheaper.We, indian software engineer are not working at very cheap rate in india.For your information, In india highest paid professional are from IT industry.We Software professional are earing higer than any other woking in other industry.
In india 30-40K/month is consider as very very good salary bcoz average salary of indian considering all sectors is lower than 10K/month.So Indian Software professional are rich in india compare to other workers.
Its a matter of currency valuation.If the value of INR is goes up to match
1INR = 1USD, than we are very very rich.BCoz average salary in US is 5K/month(Now even less) but in India it is more than 10K/month.So difference come to only in currency valuation.Not in cheap labour.Worker from other sector feels jealous of us bcoz we software professional earing much higher than them. Just to give a example, my uncle is working with one goverment firm since past 15 years and he is at high position.After 15 years in profession he earns 26K/month while I am in software profession since just 3 years but i am earning more than 40K/month.I will never consider myslef as cheap labour.
I am sure most of the Indian who goes abroad just becouse of high USD value than to INR.
[ February 03, 2004: Message edited by: himanshu patel ]

If you want to become a rich, do not work for others but make others to work for you.
Steven Broadbent
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 400
But I think you won't remain among the highest paid for long. From what I saw on India times, there's a lot of job hopping going on and salaries are rising - just like in the us and uk before the bubble burst.
You know there a few good developers in the uk/us - but their jobs leaked away - what goes around comes around they say......
Tim Holloway
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jun 25, 2001
Posts: 16145
    
  21

MNC's don't consider Indian tech workers as high-paid labor. They think in terms of dollars, not rupees, and what they see first and foremost is that an Indian worker costs roughly 1/10th in absolute dollars (which is what the execs have to pay for their Mercedeses) of what a European/American worker costs. Quality, alas, is a very distant secondary consideration.
However, even with the extreme skewing we're seeing lately, the rules of economics still apply. If IBM or Oracle employ large numbers of skilled workers in India, it will cut into the available pool for India's own internal industries and drive up their labor costs. And they are dealing in rupees, so they don't get the big benefits, and thus, while the Indian economy gets a big influx of foreign cash, it does so at the expense of its own companies (I except companies like Wipro who get significant income as offshorers themselves).
China isn't actually as cheap as India for software, because of the "cost" of less English fluency. Besides, which, in terms of sheer population, India is supposed to be pulling ahead, last I heard.
However, for a cheaper place to offshore software jobs from India, there's Africa, just jam-packed full of people many of whom are at least as fluent in English or other European languages as Indians are. Right now there's a lot of political instability and lack of infrastructure. But that could change. Some Indian companies have been trying, already.


Customer surveys are for companies who didn't pay proper attention to begin with.
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Originally posted by Tanga Palti:
BCS also stands for Bachelor of Computer Science.


Hi,
I have lived in US for so long and learn to tolerate people opinions. It's a focal point why my parents left China. When he left with nothing except for the tatted notebook contained all the contact names.
I just cannot believed that guy claim China badmouth others. People may envvy when you are more successful than them, until they know you personally. I have looked into the BCS website, but I have not see the claim. I also learn the BCS POV is similar to mine.
Regards,
MCao
Robin Davies
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 26, 2003
Posts: 64
The article is named "Sun & Microsoft battle for huge Chinees Market"
An extract from it" China is seen as a dark horse in the future of contracting IT out to cheaper countries, and the Corperation said the deal would help its business not only in China, but also as it strives to become one of the top IT outsourcing companies in the world".
Reported by silicon.com
ChanSan Mehbubani
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 30, 2003
Posts: 108
Originally posted by Matt Cao:

:roll: :roll: :roll:
Hi,
I have lived in US for so long and learn to tolerate people opinions. It's a focal point why my parents left China.

What do you want to say?There is no Bachelor of computer science?
Karthik Guru
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 1209
Originally posted by Steven Broadbent:
But I think you won't remain among the highest paid for long. From what I saw on India times, there's a lot of job hopping going on and salaries are rising - just like in the us and uk before the bubble burst.
You know there a few good developers in the uk/us - but their jobs leaked away - what goes around comes around they say......

oh yes we will be wary of that and will have hopefully learnt our lessons and will deal with that problem when it surfaces.
Mark Ju
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 20, 2003
Posts: 117
Outsourcing is not the problem. Not willing to change/adapt/innovate in the face of competition is. Don't use your family/kids/situation as an excuse - just do it.
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Hi Robin,
Now that is more acceptable, I will go with it.
Hi Tanga,
I am believed you.
Regards,
MCao
Joy Jade
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 30, 2003
Posts: 81
Originally posted by himanshu patel:
... I am in software profession since just 3 years but i am earning more than 40K/month.I will never consider myslef as cheap labour.
I am sure most of the Indian who goes abroad just becouse of high USD value than to INR.
[ February 03, 2004: Message edited by: himanshu patel ]

40k/month is still low. You can earn much much higher than that if work is done in US/UK. Imagine how so much you can improve your life at a much higher pay.

Recipients of outsourced jobs is also fooled by their clients, regardless what country it is. If only they could all take a stand to only set the price much higher or equal what they pay in US/UK. Then if theres so many vacant jobs in US/UK, they then can apply and experience a very much higher pay than what they get in outsourcing.
Sadanand Murthy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 26, 2003
Posts: 382
Originally posted by Justine Jade:

40k/month is still low. You can earn much much higher than that if work is done in US/UK. Imagine how so much you can improve your life at a much higher pay.


40k/month in Rs. in India is a lot of money. It will somewhat like making 8k/month in USD in US.


Ever Existing, Ever Conscious, Ever-new Bliss
Joy Jade
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 30, 2003
Posts: 81
Originally posted by Sadanand Murthy:

40k/month in Rs. in India is a lot of money. It will somewhat like making 8k/month in USD in US.

It is indeed a lot of money in India because cost of living is not that high compared to US. It would be much much better bringing home US salary standard home to India, don't you think so? If we keep allowing outsourcing, we IT people are just making ourselves and our knowledge cheap by driving down the cost of our skills.
But come to think of it, outsourcing programmers are allowing themselves to become a victim of abuse by accepting very very low pay when they probably know they can charge at a US/UK price? If only all IT ppl all over the world could take a stand and set a standard pay for certain IT position regardless of country, then most likely every IT worker will be much satisfied with their career compared to getting very low outsourcing salaries. Also, outsourcing workers are pretty much killing their chances to travel abroad for work and getting US/UK standard pay to remit to their families back in their home country. If nobody is taking cheap outsourcing jobs abroad, there will be abundance of IT jobs in US/UK. Then there are very much greater chances of going abroad for work. Wouldn't that be much better 'coz it's a new experience?
[ February 05, 2004: Message edited by: Justine Jade ]
Tara Bhattacharjee
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 25, 2003
Posts: 36
Jade,
What you are forgetting is- a lot of people don't like to leave their comfort zone and home land and go abroad.
Joy Jade
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 30, 2003
Posts: 81
Originally posted by Tara Bhattacharjee:
Jade,
What you are forgetting is- a lot of people don't like to leave their comfort zone and home land and go abroad.

Tara,
Hmmm. I don't think so... If you say a lot of people really don't like to leave their comfort zone and homeland, how come there were sooo many H1-B applicants before very much willing to work abroad to improve their lives? Can you still remember those days? Can you please explain this?
[ February 05, 2004: Message edited by: Justine Jade ]
[ February 05, 2004: Message edited by: Justine Jade ]
[ February 05, 2004: Message edited by: Justine Jade ]
Arjun Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1874
{
Hmmm. I don't think so... If you say a lot of people really don't like to leave their comfort zone and homeland, how come there were sooo many H1-B applicants before very much willing to work abroad to improve their lives? Can you still remember those days? Can you please explain this
}
What was the age group of majority of H1-Bers at that time? 25 to 30,right?People in this group are ready to move anywhere where they can get MORE money.Moving out of India does not necessarily mean you are striving here for bread ad butter.Infact you see people moving to UK/US/Canada from India,they are previleged class here in in 70s,higher medium class in 80s and independent and 'leave me alone ' culture type in 90s.[People from state of Punjab migrate heavily to Canada although it is one of the richest state in India and people there are one of the wealthiest].It is for MORE luxury and Status and ofcourse money ,people tend to move .
Now about IT,as you grow and become old(above 35) people are considered to be inflexible.If 'older' workers here demand more salary(for example 80000 rs instead of 40000),it won't take time to replace him/her by 3 people of 15000 each!.People above 30/35 are generally expected to be 'stable'in their career.Moving to another country with your kids and other responsibilities (car loan/home loan) is not as easy as 'younger' ones moving.


MH
Joy Jade
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 30, 2003
Posts: 81
Originally posted by Capablanca Kepler:
[QB...Moving to another country with your kids and other responsibilities (car loan/home loan) is not as easy as 'younger' ones moving.[/QB]

I have a friend who is older, married with kids but still applied as H1-B. Having a family wasn't an excuse for him.
John Summers
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 06, 2003
Posts: 125
I have no doubt whatsoever that with my current qualifications and experience I would have a better job and quality of life in India than I have here in the Uk. Funny how capatilism and free trade is starting to work the other way round, isn't it?
YES, China is the dark horse. I firmly believe that in 5> years companies will no longer outsource to India but to China. China has increasing numbers of qualified people, and most Chinese students are greatly concerned with learning English (often with limited success). As soon as China improves its infrastructure, language skills and quantities of graduates they will start taking jobs from India.
I'm actually learning Chinese now as a hobby. WO DE ZHONG WEN BU HAO. NI KE YI JIANG MAN YI DIAN MA? For once i have managed to get ahead of the game and realise what an advantage knowing Mandarin will be in 5 - 10 years.
john
Jason Cox
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 21, 2004
Posts: 287
I expect the outsourcing fad to decline in 5 to 10 years.
Realistic outsourcing will always be with us. The race to the bottom will end after the UK and US sufficiently damage their economies and realize they have to strike a balance. This won't happen until stockholders lose some money, and they will, and some execs pull the ripcord on their golden parachutes.
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Originally posted by Justine Jade:

I have a friend who is older, married with kids but still applied as H1-B. Having a family wasn't an excuse for him.

Hi,
Your friend wants to have higher income with low living standard a typical third world mentality. It will change with the globalization economy fully activated. Or may be it a first step for him to immigrate to US.
Regards,
MCao
Sadanand Murthy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 26, 2003
Posts: 382
Originally posted by Justine Jade:

It is indeed a lot of money in India because cost of living is not that high compared to US. It would be much much better bringing home US salary standard home to India, don't you think so?

Yes. Who doesn't want to earn more than what one is earning now?
Originally posted by Justine Jade:

If we keep allowing outsourcing, we IT people are just making ourselves and our knowledge cheap by driving down the cost of our skills.

I believe that this is the fad-du-jour; a band wagon that more and more companies are jumping on. Since these companies are jumping on to this band wagon without proper analysis of whether outsourcing is right for them for that specific task, a majority of these companies will learn a lesson the hard way that outsourcing is not a silver bullet. That happens, coupled with pressure from constituencies here in US, the outsourcing will balance out thereby improving the job market for us here in US.
Originally posted by Justine Jade:

But come to think of it, outsourcing programmers are allowing themselves to become a victim of abuse by accepting very very low pay when they probably know they can charge at a US/UK price? If only all IT ppl all over the world could take a stand and set a standard pay for certain IT position regardless of country, then most likely every IT worker will be much satisfied with their career compared to getting very low outsourcing salaries.

Ah. IT Workers of the World, Unite.
Seriously, though, what do you think this will do to the economies of the 3rd world that are involved in outsourcing (India, China, etc.)? The majority of the population of these countries are not IT professionals. Hence they will not be earning these humoungous salaries that are pegged to the USD. Only a very small percentage of the population will be making out like bandits. This will make the schism between the haves & have-nots even wider. The more serious outcome of this will be the price of every-day goods, housing, etc. These items will more likely than not get priced out of reach for the majority of the population. The inflation that this will likely cause will probably collapse the economy of these countries. That will be even worse at the global level since the developed countries will have to bail them out (thus adding to the already extended pockets of the developed countries).
Jason Cox
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 21, 2004
Posts: 287
I believe that this is the fad-du-jour; a band wagon that more and more companies are jumping on. Since these companies are jumping on to this band wagon without proper analysis of whether outsourcing is right for them for that specific task, a majority of these companies will learn a lesson the hard way that outsourcing is not a silver bullet. That happens, coupled with pressure from constituencies here in US, the outsourcing will balance out thereby improving the job market for us here in US.

I'm glad I'm not the only person who thinks this way.
The only real problem is surviving the fad until it goes away.
I do worry a little that we're going to create a bunch of jobs in India and then yank them away though. Does India really have to pay the price for US greed? Part of me hopes that we can learn to leverage offshore talent and retain the jobs we've created abroad. Offshoring can work, but I think 100% offshoring is just plain nuts.
Sadanand Murthy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 26, 2003
Posts: 382
Originally posted by Rob Aught:

I do worry a little that we're going to create a bunch of jobs in India and then yank them away though. Does India really have to pay the price for US greed? Part of me hopes that we can learn to leverage offshore talent and retain the jobs we've created abroad. Offshoring can work, but I think 100% offshoring is just plain nuts.

As the saying goes - you can't clap with one hand. Or - it takes 2 to tango.
India may have to pay the price for the outsourcing rug gets pulled from under her (even if not all the way). If Indian govt & companies who are benefiting from outsourcing are smart and can see the writing on the wall, they will have survival plans in place. I don't know what these plans are or what they should be. If not, the weaker companies will go under & the stronger will survive. Darwinism in IT. But it will have a hard impact on the burgeoning upper-middle class in India; pretty much like it has here in the US. Over a period of time the 2 economies will survive because both are elastic. Any subsequent trade between the 2 countries will, IMO, be symbiotic with each leveraging the others strength to complement one's own.
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Hi,
Why can't you clap with one hand? One hand stay and the other hand clap to it. When you are tired changing to the other hand. The noise from the applause may not be loud as two hands, but people still prefer you clap than sit still even how lousy the performance.
Regards,
MCao
Tara Bhattacharjee
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 25, 2003
Posts: 36
Justin,
I said that most people would rather not move abroad because-
Like Casablanca explained, it is much harder to learn the language and assimulate if you are an older person. There are always exceptions like your friend. In general, it is harder to take risks as you grow older. Especially, if you can live comfortably back home.
I personally haven't faced racism but I know a cousin of mine in Chicago that is dark-skinned has. This is something I would speculate some Indians are probably apprehensive about. Being a lighter skinned person makes your life much more easier even in the US, take it from someone that knows.
I think about my parents a lot, bringing them over here will make it real hard for me- since they can not get around by themselves (physically they are fine but they can't drive in this country.) Leaving them back in India makes me sad too because when they get sick or I get sick I can't see them that easily. Anyway, this is constant thing in my life. Not that my parents are ready to live in the US, they won't be happy living here.
 
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subject: Outsourcing