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No Protests on the streets about Outsourcing

Joy Jade
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 30, 2003
Posts: 81
How come people are not having massive protests on streets (in US) due to continuous outsourcing? It's a big problem and so many are really affected. When the terminator governor repeal illegal alien's driver's licenses there were protest on the streets by some people. It's not such a big problem but they made noise on the news. How come there's not much people power on the streets? There's just some noise on TV (Lou Dobbs), message boards, etc... But I think that's not enough to make an impact to lawmakers to make some changes and give back the jobs to its citizens.
[ February 04, 2004: Message edited by: Justine Jade ]
[ February 04, 2004: Message edited by: Justine Jade ]
[ February 04, 2004: Message edited by: Justine Jade ]
Tim Holloway
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jun 25, 2001
Posts: 16065
    
  21

Because we're not really yet sure how much - if any - damage has been done by offshoring. The export process is a slow bleeding and the bad economy has taken the blame for a lot of the hurt.
However if the administration and the economists continue to trumpet how good the economy is doing but ordinary people continue to work under stress and fear of being laid off. Or have been laid off and can't get re-employed; that's when the resentment is going to seriously build.
We're still a few months off from that, by my best estimate. Though Kerry's efforts in SC and Dubya's rush there to amend things may be early indicators.


Customer surveys are for companies who didn't pay proper attention to begin with.
Steven Broadbent
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Joined: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 400
Tim I love your signature line. Where did you get it from?


"....bigmouth strikes again, and I've got no right to take my place with the human race...."<p>SCJP 1.4
Joe Ess
Bartender

Joined: Oct 29, 2001
Posts: 8908
    
    8

Who are you going to protest? You want to protest the governor, you run up to the statehouse. IBM outsources 5k jobs, where are you going to protest? Their corporate HQ (where nobody would see you except the security guard)? Nearest branch office (13th floor, E9th St and St. Clair)? The statehouse? Can the governor even use a computer? Would you know the upper management if you happened to pass them on the street? I don't think so. Smack everyone coming out of the IBM HQ wearing a suit with a pie? Gonna take a lot of pies. . .
Managing the checks and balances on the global economy is going to be very tricky. Banning outsourcing will price US companies out of the market and tick off foreign customers. Allowing unrestrained outsourcing may well cause a "race to the bottom" where US companies enter a vicious cycle of cutting costs to lower prices to stay competitive until the economy collapses into a jobless singularity. In between you have Mexican farmers unhappy with the subsidies that American farmers get and American steel workers upset because the protective tarrif on steel was just revoked (in order to make Japan happy).
[ February 04, 2004: Message edited by: Joe Ess ]

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Natalie Kopple
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 06, 2003
Posts: 325
There have been protests in several selected major cities; however, only 10-12 activists showed up each time. It seems that the unemployed are not angry enough to take the street. I have been very puzzled about why it sounds like "thunders" on the discussion boards; but, there are only a few drops of rain. Probably the majorty have other means to survive or do not care/worried.
Joe Ess
Bartender

Joined: Oct 29, 2001
Posts: 8908
    
    8

It's safe to also say that people find it easier/safer to express their outrage by typing in a discussion than to actually show up to a protest in person. That and many discussions of oursourcing aren't so much about jobs as xenophobia, prejudice and the fear that this cozy American lifestyle may come to an end.
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

The kinds of protests that *do* occur in this vein are usually focussed at things like WTO meetings, where the protest can be made visible to heads of state or other important political figures.
Where do you protest outsourcing? In front of the IBM campus?


Make visible what, without you, might perhaps never have been seen.
- Robert Bresson
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
many discussions of oursourcing aren't so much about jobs as xenophobia

Could you site a xenophobic thread that occurred on this forum?
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
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Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Joe Ess:
..

Is this Joe Esposito by any chance???


Commentary From the Sidelines of history
Sadanand Murthy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 26, 2003
Posts: 382
Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:

Could you site a xenophobic thread that occurred on this forum?

IMO: Please note that I've already prefixed my post with 'IMO' as it is indeed my opinion.
Robin Davies post here.
Also the thread that started one of the most vehement discussion on this; the one that refered to India's economy as a parasitic one. Others may argue that it was not xenophobic, but to me it is especially since the word 'parasite' was used (that brought to my mind a vision of Jews being called rats in Nazi Germany).


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Robin Davies
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 26, 2003
Posts: 64
I think we should protest on the streets of London if things get that bad!
Actually, I wouldn't even mind helping to set that event up! lol
Great Idea
(We will NOT stand for it) They shout...................


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Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
what is to be blamed is the whole architecture based on winning while some others losing; on the contrary to everybody winning! The human beings are still not so developed, to exceed this dilemma?
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
Somewhere I read there were 480,000 H1-Bs in the US working in information technology. The US is a target rich environment for protest.
This thread might well have been named Silence of the Lambs.
If I lived in Texas, I'd go down to the Houston suburbs and give that prick Tom Delay a piece of my mind.
[ February 04, 2004: Message edited by: Rufus BugleWeed ]
Joy Jade
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 30, 2003
Posts: 81
Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
Somewhere I read there were 480,000 H1-Bs in the US working in information technology. The US is a target rich environment for protest.
This thread might well have been named Silence of the Lambs.
If I lived in Texas, I'd go down to the Houston suburbs and give that prick Tom Delay a piece of my mind.
[ February 04, 2004: Message edited by: Rufus BugleWeed ]

There may be 480,000 H1-Bs in US but most likely some of them are laid off already. I personnally know one who is H1-B and just got laid off last year.
[ February 05, 2004: Message edited by: Justine Jade ]
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
Those who still have jobs don't want to risk them by protesting openly (and are often seriously overworked because of having to do the work of the people that were budgeted away as well as their own).
Those who don't have jobs are too busy jobhunting and wouldn't want to be recognised as a potential troublemaker (protests are often aired on TV, which HR people watch too).
Ergo, noone shows up because they are too busy and/or too afraid to do so.


42
Joy Jade
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 30, 2003
Posts: 81
Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:
Those who still have jobs don't want to risk them by protesting openly (and are often seriously overworked because of having to do the work of the people that were budgeted away as well as their own).
Those who don't have jobs are too busy jobhunting and wouldn't want to be recognised as a potential troublemaker (protests are often aired on TV, which HR people watch too).
Ergo, noone shows up because they are too busy and/or too afraid to do so.


hmmm... so that means we should stop complaining because it's a hopeless case?
Just wondering, what if programmers in US match the price for work of Outsourcing recipients? I think that is better than no job at all or rather than do volunteer work. And they do the job they like but unfortunately with less pay. Maybe that would make the jobs stay.
Joy Jade
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 30, 2003
Posts: 81
Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:
Those who still have jobs don't want to risk them by protesting openly (and are often seriously overworked because of having to do the work of the people that were budgeted away as well as their own).
Those who don't have jobs are too busy jobhunting and wouldn't want to be recognised as a potential troublemaker (protests are often aired on TV, which HR people watch too).
Ergo, noone shows up because they are too busy and/or too afraid to do so.

But they could wear sunglasses, hats, etc. so that they couldn't be recognized ... This topic just has to be on the news almost everyday to be really taken seriously by the gov't. Just like at Lou Dobbs ... But what's taken the news all the time is just mostly celebrity court cases, that doesn't really help a lot of people.
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
Originally posted by Justine Jade:

Just wondering, what if programmers in US match the price for work of Outsourcing recipients?

IMHO, thats where its heading to, based on the general demand vs supply equation, however, another much discussed option is to move up the food chain. I totally agree it�s not for everyone, and there can�t be just as many architects, business analysts and domain experts, as there were programmers. But if you imagine for a second, the IT giants who outsource outside the USA, if their model proven right, would make many times more profit that they usually do, and some of it should trickle down thru the order and create new upper level positions in the USA � like more business analysts to attend to same number of clients or issues, more in the �between client and outsource team� spectrum. Just my thoughts!


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Stephen Pride
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Joined: Sep 14, 2000
Posts: 121
Originally posted by Justine Jade:
Just wondering, what if programmers in US match the price for work of Outsourcing recipients? I think that is better than no job at all or rather than do volunteer work. And they do the job they like but unfortunately with less pay. Maybe that would make the jobs stay.

You should read the following article. It talks about a company in the US who decided to offer IT positions to US recepients at India prices. Note: This isn't exactly the same thing you are mentioning (i.e., H1-B costs vs. US, instead of India labor costs vs. US), but hits along the same vein.


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R K Singh
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Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
India is still a 'toddler' with only 2 per cent of global market share, according to N R Narayana Murthy.
I have not read full thread but still I am not able to understand why outsourcing is so much of issue when its only 2% of global market


"Thanks to Indian media who has over the period of time swiped out intellectual taste from mass Indian population." - Chetan Parekh
Tim Holloway
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jun 25, 2001
Posts: 16065
    
  21

Originally posted by R K Singh:
India is still a 'toddler' with only 2 per cent of global market share, according to N R Narayana Murthy.
I have not read full thread but still I am not able to understand why outsourcing is so much of issue when its only 2% of global market

Because some indications are that it's 10% of the US IT job market.
I think the reason why there aren't yet riots in the streets is because 10% is still within reason for normal job market fluctuations. Of course if it stays depressed by 10% people start getting uneasy. When it gets to 20% people with start making noise.
Tim Holloway
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jun 25, 2001
Posts: 16065
    
  21

Originally posted by Steven Broadbent:
Tim I love your signature line. Where did you get it from?

It's my own humble invention. Just a reminder it's false economy to reduce expenses if you're also reducing your income.
Steven Broadbent
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 400
It's great, seems like a clever comedians spoof on management bs!!!
Steven Broadbent
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 400
What about Law and accountancy being outsourced. I have heard rumours of it in London. Also read something recently about US law firms outsourcing legal work - the writer joked "don't mess with lawyers".

This will be the next big outsourcing thing - when the briefcase brigade are hit - these guys have "real" career paths, not like us poor ITers.
[ February 06, 2004: Message edited by: Steven Broadbent ]
Joy Jade
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 30, 2003
Posts: 81
Originally posted by Steven Broadbent:
What about Law and accountancy being outsourced. I have heard rumours of it in London. Also read something recently about US law firms outsourcing legal work - the writer joked "don't mess with lawyers".

This will be the next big outsourcing thing - when the briefcase brigade are hit - these guys have "real" career paths, not like us poor ITers.
[ February 06, 2004: Message edited by: Steven Broadbent ]

Maybe it's a good thing that Law and accountancy will be the next. It would invite more people from those sectors on the streets for massive demonstrations. More people power when that time comes and not just from IT and manufacturing. The more sectors that are affected, the more people on the streets to possibly join to voice their sentiments and to get more noticed.
[ February 06, 2004: Message edited by: Justine Jade ]
[ February 06, 2004: Message edited by: Justine Jade ]
Steven Broadbent
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 400
I saw a Wipro guy talking about the outsourcing of MMR and CAT scan intepretation to India - what are the legal implications of this??
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
no need to come on street. :-
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
Originally posted by Justine Jade:


hmmm... so that means we should stop complaining because it's a hopeless case?
Just wondering, what if programmers in US match the price for work of Outsourcing recipients? I think that is better than no job at all or rather than do volunteer work. And they do the job they like but unfortunately with less pay. Maybe that would make the jobs stay.

if programmers match the price of outsourcing they'd still not get hired.
They'd have to seriously undercut the price of an Indian programmer to get anywhere, which means working for $10 a day before taxes with no job security whatsoever (meaning effectively being a daylabourer) and no benefits (no pension, health insurance, lunchbreaks or pizza when you're doing (unpaid) overtime).
After taxes that would leave about $6 a day for food, rent, transportation, etc. etc. etc.
I doubt anyone could live off that kind of money in the US or Europe.
And no, accepting such offers would be worse than doing volunteer work or having no job at all.
Not only would it destroy you personally (you'd soon be out on the street because you can't pay the rent) but you'd also ruin the jobmarket (which will rebounce once the outsourcing fad has gone too far and companies start seeing that it's not the end-it-all of IT).
Bela Bardak
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 02, 2004
Posts: 179
I saw a Wipro guy talking about the outsourcing of MMR and CAT scan intepretation to India - what are the legal implications of this??

Well that is MD work, so I suppose that if Wipro can hire doctors with US medical licenses to work for cheap in India they're in business.
I think it's proof that the Indian outsourcers may be taking their attention off of their core business to chase butterflys. Good news for unemployed westerners, bad news for their customers....
Sadanand Murthy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 26, 2003
Posts: 382
Originally posted by Bela Bardak:

I think it's proof that the Indian outsourcers may be taking their attention off of their core business to chase butterflys.

Either that or they are diversifying into other areas as well.
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Hi,
The more I see about India insourcing strategy the more it resemble HongKong in the different time. HongKong did because it was the borrow time in borrow land. Of course, the magnitude was much smaller because of land scarcity.
Regards,
MCao
Alan Google
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 16, 2003
Posts: 9
Who are you going to protest?

I think that Sun Microsystems should be protested. They clearly have a strong pro-Indian bias.
Check out Sun's career path page. The top featured article is "What Every Indian Developer Should Know About Java Technology".
the community-driven, platform-agnostic approach of Java technology has the most to offer Indian developers.
...
And the language is striving to make development in Java technology easier for Indian developers. Specifically, the recently added support of left-to-right Hindi/Devanagari is an important example of support within the Java technology community for developers in India.

I have spent the last five years coming up to speed in Java. I have taken Sun's courses, bought their books, and got their certifications. I don't appreciate them posting a roadmap for Indians to take my job.
Don't get me wrong; I have no hostility toward Indian people. Most of the Indians I have met have been decent and hard-working people. But what is going on with offshoring is wrong. If Sun thinks that they are going to send our jobs out of the country with no backlash they are crazy.
Alex Ayzin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 10, 2001
Posts: 107
Originally posted by Alan Google:

Don't get me wrong; I have no hostility toward Indian people. Most of the Indians I have met have been decent and hard-working people. But what is going on with offshoring is wrong. If Sun thinks that they are going to send our jobs out of the country with no backlash they are crazy.

Alan, though I totally agree with you about outsourcing, career-threatening developments that have something to do with India or China, I couldn't help but notice one thing: that very much resembles my beloved Seinfeld and he's take on gay people: he can't stand that way of life, not that anything's wrong with that. Sorry, just sounded very much alike . But on other hand I'm totally on board with your position.
--Alex Ayzin
Jason Cox
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 21, 2004
Posts: 287
From a business perspective, it just makes good sense. Ultimately, it's not Sun's responsibility to somehow withhold help from people just because they happen to be the favorite source of outsourcing.
If the shoe were on the other foot, I doubt you'd be complaining.
Don't blame Sun for this debacle, but rather the businesses who insist on using outsourcing despite the dubious claims of reduced costs and high quality, not to mention the harm that is being dealt to the US economy.
Alan Google
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 16, 2003
Posts: 9
Rob,
Nobody is asking Sun to "withhold help", but they are actively "striving to make development in Java technology easier for Indian developers". Those are their words - not mine; they make no pretense about it. That doesn't sound like a level playing field to me.
Jason Cox
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 21, 2004
Posts: 287
Making it easier in the sense that it is just as accessible to them as native English speakers. If anything, it sounds like they ARE leveling the playing field.
 
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subject: No Protests on the streets about Outsourcing