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resume fraud article on CNN

Jessica Sant
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 17, 2001
Posts: 4313

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/ptech/03/11/resumes.fraud.reut/index.html
Saw this article on CNN -- its crazy the length some people will go to get a job they don't deserve.


- Jess
Blog:KnitClimbJava | Twitter: jsant | Ravelry: wingedsheep
Vishwa Kumba
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 27, 2003
Posts: 1066
If degrees and references can be faked, what chance do certifications stand?
I am a Sun certified ..............Liar
Stephen Pride
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 14, 2000
Posts: 121
Originally posted by Jessica Sant:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/ptech/03/11/resumes.fraud.reut/index.html
Saw this article on CNN -- its crazy the length some people will go to get a job they don't deserve.

This was all the norm during the dot-com hey-days. I recall reading an article shortly after the "bust" that said upwards of 70% of candidates applying for IT jobs during that time lied on their resume and/or job application. Of course at that time, just saying you knew what Java was pretty much landed you at least an entry-level position. Unfortunately, the climate has now gone 180 degrees - you almost need a PhD with 10 years experience now to even get an interview. (That's probably why lying has gone up so much.)


SCJP
Marc Peabody
pie sneak
Sheriff

Joined: Feb 05, 2003
Posts: 4727

I think it's more like a Bachelors plus 2-3 years solid experience to get an interview at most places - but even that is quite rough for recent graduates.
Any decent company should have a fairly thorough technical interview to prevent hiring fibbers.


A good workman is known by his tools.
Jon McDonald
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 02, 2001
Posts: 167
Originally posted by Jessica Sant:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/ptech/03/11/resumes.fraud.reut/index.html
Saw this article on CNN -- its crazy the length some people will go to get a job they don't deserve.

The only word I can think of to describe this is "disgusting". I have heard that several states have, or will, make it a felony to use a fake degree when applying for a job.
Jon


SCJP<br/>
"I study politics and war that my sons may have the liberty to study mathematics and philosophy in order to give their children a right to study painting poetry and music."<br />--John Adams
Dmitry Melnik
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 18, 2003
Posts: 328
There are related issues:
How can one tell a fake diploma/degree from a real one?
How can one tell a real school (or distance learning facility) from a "diploma mill"?
What to do with degrees earned abroad?
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
I call schools to verify degrees, as opposed to asking people to bring them in.
Here's the catch to verification: it first requires identification. For example, think of all the scams where someone calls up and says, "I'm from your credit card company, there's been some unusual activity we want to go over with you, but first we need to confirm your..." SSN, card number, etc. The flaw in the scam (which most people miss) is that we just accept them to be who they say they are. Personally, I would ask them for identification and then call them back using a number in a safe source (bill, phone book).
The same thing is true with this. I won't use any phone numbers they give me for college contact info. Instead, I look up the college on the web and use the phone number listed. So far they've always been colleges I've heard of. Plus, the .edu domain requires some hoop jumping, so that should provide some protection also.
I suppose a sufficently determined organization can acquire an edu domain and abuse it. However, the cost of doing so seems prohibitive, especially since it only takes one well-written complaint to bring it to light and have it shut down.
--Mark
D. Rose
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 25, 2003
Posts: 215
I think the degree of lying has gone up as market demands are really unrealistic, a page length of requirements about anything and everything under the sun!
Hari Vignesh Padmanaban
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 07, 2003
Posts: 578
Hello ranchers,
As one person put it in , it is TOTALLY DISGUSTING.
As a recent graduate, I have been approached by many recruiters (at least 6), who would provide training to me and then market me adding 2-5 years experience!!! Being a foreign student, they do emotionally try to exploit you offering H-1 and Green card !!
I have seen, heard many people getting to jobs like this !! and it is totally FRUSTRATING !!!
One of them even remarked " We wodunt be doing any major changes in your resume like changing your bachelors degree from "chemical Engineering" to "Computer Science" !!!
WHAT THE !@!#!#!#@! !!!
More than the candidates (who of course screw themselves up just for teh short term happiness of the jobs), I am often shocked at companies who recruit them !!! and Believe me I have heard guys like this make it to BIG Companies !!!
I really think that companie should have a vigorous TECHNICAL ROUND interviews to clear out this candidate !!!
I know one candidate who put on 3-4 experience in java (faked it of course), went to the interview weell prepared with possible questions that the company recruites might ask (courtesy of the agencies !!!) and was able to answer all questions realted to teh fake projects BUT was not able to answer teh question "What is teh difference between imlements and extends? "

I think companies should CHECK OUT THE COMPANIES LISTED IN THE RESUMES and ALSO ask Questions not related to teh project , but related to relevant TECHNOLOGIES !!!
Hari
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Originally posted by Jon McDonald:

The only word I can think of to describe this is "disgusting". I have heard that several states have, or will, make it a felony to use a fake degree when applying for a job.
Jon

Hi,
Yes, it is true. In California, you will be tried as a felony because that equates to con somebody. I think that I already mentioned sometimes last year about a grandma earn her a jail time for lying about her credential on her resume.
This year one of the decision-maker of UCLA medical, probably you all know from newspapers.
Regards,
MCao
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

I hope that Joe Pluta has read the article.


Groovy
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
I've never given a damn about certifications, Pradeep, so while this is definitely nauseating, it's also not surprising. Once certifications take the place of actual knowledge, people start obtaining certifications simply to have them, not in order to actually gain knowledge. And from there it's but a small step to faking the whole process.
When I was in charge of hiring, I did all my interviews face to face; people made the cut based on whether they convinced me they knew their stuff or not. Of course, back then we still believed that a manager should be able to do the job of his employees. The concept of a professional manager who manages people to do things he can't do himself was not yet the corporate norm.
Joe
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
When I was in charge of hiring, I did all my interviews face to face; people made the cut based on whether they convinced me they knew their stuff or not. Of course, back then we still believed that a manager should be able to do the job of his employees. The concept of a professional manager who manages people to do things he can't do himself was not yet the corporate norm.
Joe

Good idea. And of course the idea that HR staff can decide what qualifications other departments need (and then decide which person meets those qualifications) without ever talking to the people who will have to work with that person.
Case in point, at one time (when I worked still for a consultancy firm) we went to an intake interview with a (potentially) major customer.
The published profile matched my skillsets exactly but during the interview we discovered some disparaties between the published skillset and the required skillset.
When we asked for the project technical lead to be brought in (who had originally asked for the job to be recruited on) he couldn't recognise a single requirement on the published job description from the one he'd sent to HR...
Instead of a Java/C++ programmer he was looking for an functional analyst/designer with VB/C++ background and in-depth knowledge of Crystal Reports.
Another time we went to an intake with another potential customer who'd asked for a C++ developer.
During the interview (with an HR manager and project manager without any technical background apart from some buzzwords) I quickly discovered that they wanted someone who had extensive experience interfacing Crystal reports with MFC (my C++ experience includes a lot but certainly not MFC).
I told them I didn't think I was the person they wanted, and was quite surprised that when on the way out the building I was called on my GSM telling me they wanted me for the job. I told them it would not be in their nor my best interest (nor that of my employer at the time) if I take that project and almost certainly fail in it. We found them someone else who was a better match.
This are the most extreme cases I've encountered myself, but certainly not the only one.


42
Jason Cox
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 21, 2004
Posts: 287
I think someone mentioned that this is probably a reaction to the ridiculous job requirements many companies are posting these days.
Not that I'm excusing this practice. It's awful to think that someone who is looking for work and qualified for the position may not have gotten the job due to someone lying.
However, I don't think the current popular practice is a good way to match candidates. I'm much more interested in a person's foundation than their laundry list anyway. A lot of concepts can be taught rather quickly, especially if the individual is sharp. It's amazing what you can learn about someone by simply sitting down and having a conversation with them, and it doesn't have to be a grilling technical interview.
I think the real problem is that HR departments are overly involved in the process. They don't really understand what a particular problem domain needs, so they're usually the ones publishing a laundry list of skills that may or may not even by relevant to the job at hand. I think it's hilarious that a former employer looking for my replacement listed skills from my job that I barely used.
I don't think the "perfect candidate" is a person who just happens to have all the skills your looking for, but rather someone who is adding value to the organization. Just give me someone who can hit the ground running and can learn along the way. If they have the customer facing skills, teamwork, and good communication that we need, that's more important than 5 years experience with some obscure technology used in one tiny piece of some artifact application.
Hari Vignesh Padmanaban
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 07, 2003
Posts: 578
I hope, that all employers think like you ROB !!
and HR people stop comming up with those BIG Laundry list
[ March 16, 2004: Message edited by: Hari Vignesh Padmanaban ]
Dmitry Melnik
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 18, 2003
Posts: 328
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,62689,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_2
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
For those interested, you can find a information about the federally recognized accreditation bodies here.
--Mark
Jon McDonald
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 02, 2001
Posts: 167
For general university degrees in the US, the acreditation to look for is Regional Acreditation from one of the regional acreditors listed on the link Mark posted, although sometimes people accept DETC acreditation as well. Most universities will not let you teach without a regionally acredited Master's degree or PhD (except if your degree is from a legitimate foreign school). Look up the name "Laura Callahan" and "Homeland Security" on google to see what happens when people use fake degrees.
Jon
Jon McDonald
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 02, 2001
Posts: 167
As a side note, many times, especially in academia, when people like this are busted for having fake degrees, their employer will, to save face, say that a degree was not required for the position. However, that degree, while not required, gave them the edge the person needed to get selected over someone without a degree.. For example, Person A and Person B apply for a job or promotion. Both have legitimate bachleors degrees, but person B also has a fake/unacredited masters degree. Person B is hired because he is "more qualified", in large part due to his fake masters degree. It is revealed that person B's masters degree is fake. The employer then reverts to saying that a Masters degree was not required for the job.
Jon
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Originally posted by Jon McDonald:
As a side note, many times, especially in academia, when people like this are busted for having fake degrees, their employer will, to save face, say that a degree was not required for the position. However, that degree, while not required, gave them the edge the person needed to get selected over someone without a degree.. For example, Person A and Person B apply for a job or promotion. Both have legitimate bachleors degrees, but person B also has a fake/unacredited masters degree. Person B is hired because he is "more qualified", in large part due to his fake masters degree. It is revealed that person B's masters degree is fake. The employer then reverts to saying that a Masters degree was not required for the job.
Jon

Hi,
In California, Person B will earn time behind bars for fraud. No matter, how you cut it, the Person B has one thing in mind when trying to apply for the position is how to con the system. When the school trying to save face, the school chancellor also get the heat as well. The chancellor could lose the job for mismanagement. Now, that is in the high level. At the low level, school grants the Person B a degree just to be on the safe side. It operates on case by case.
Some posters mention that you could interview that individual to find out the validity of the candidate. It is like to say the rest of the folks are idiots. When someone try to con the system that individual is darn good in fooling people.
Regards,
MCao
Steven Broadbent
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 400
Apparently posting fake jobs to garner CVs is illegal - it is classed as gaining confidential data by deception I believe.


"....bigmouth strikes again, and I've got no right to take my place with the human race...."<p>SCJP 1.4
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
I just learned of a relatively new accredation commission focused on distance learning. This may have some beneficial effect on online degree programs and may have some impact on online diploma mills.
--Mark
Padma Raman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 31, 2001
Posts: 32
Hi all,
All of you are talking about fake degrees.I am looking out for jobs and i have a break of five years as i chose to raise my kids and noone is calling me for an interview(have 7 years of IT experience). All my friends and relatives all say that i have to filup the gap(how??? one of the recruiter is even ready to fill up the gap and give me fake references and phone numbers!!!). When i say to everyone that i do not want to lie, they look at me like a ..... person.
Everyone is faking in their resume, so people like us have to keep doing more and more certifications and still we may not get an interview call.
It is really frustrating for a honest person like me. I want to be a good role model for my kids.
regards,
Raman
SCJP 1.4
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Hi,
I think you hang around with wrong people, then assume everyone else are like that.
It is depended where you are. In US, there are many companies head by women or liberal toward nonbusiness related issues do accept your kind of break. But one thing you must be clear that you made a personal decision, a personal sacrifice for your kids. It has nothing to do with the company. The people I know making that kind of decision usually are high connections and big clout.
Regards,
MCao
Hari Vignesh Padmanaban
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 07, 2003
Posts: 578
Originally posted by Padma Raman:
one of the recruiter is even ready to fill up the gap and give me fake references and phone numbers!!!).


ONE !!! 11 out of 12 recruiters who have contacted me wanted me to put on fake experience

When i say to everyone that i do not want to lie, they look at me like a ..... person.

To hell with them..


Everyone is faking in their resume, so people like us have to keep doing more and more certifications and still we may not get an interview call.

Not everyone .. I dont and hey i do have a lot of loans pending and other personal commitments !!!
Investment in Knowledge is never a waste and hey padma ..we will reap the benefits ..quite high
what we need is patience and some inspiration !!!


It is really frustrating for a honest person like me.

Dont ever get frustrated . people who get into jobs like this generally are people who think in short-term. They dont really think abt teh games that they have to play inside the company, be entirely dependent on the recruiter, continute to act, be dihonest ..and much more ..eventually they screw their own lives
I want to be a good role model for my kids.

Your kids should be proud to have a mom like you
Good luck on your exams !!! How is your SCJD preparation going on ?
take care
hari
[ March 28, 2004: Message edited by: Hari Vignesh Padmanaban ]
Padma Raman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 31, 2001
Posts: 32
Hi Hari,
Thank you so much for your reply. I haven't even started preparing for SCJD.
However, I bought Head First EJB book because i just wanted to know littlebit more that what i do know now and also I thought the book will be useful for SCBCD preparation. I will start SCJD preparation soon.
Thanks a lot once again for your positive thinking and encouragement.
Regards,
Raman
Jon McDonald
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 02, 2001
Posts: 167
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
I just learned of a relatively new accredation commission focused on distance learning. This may have some beneficial effect on online degree programs and may have some impact on online diploma mills.
--Mark

Not really that new . DETC was founded in 1955, and before that it was called something like the National Home Schooling Something (don't remember the exact name) which was founded in the 1920's. The thing is, so many regionally acredited schools are offering online degrees (especially in IT) that, in many cases, it doesn't make sense to accept less. These schools range from standard state schools like Colorado State University, to engineering powerhouses like the University of Illinois, to Ivy League like Columbia University. I've seen prices range from reasonable (<$1,000 per course) to extremely expensive(>$4,000 per course). The only problem with a DETC acredited degree is that some universities won't acknowledge that degree if you are trying to get into graduate school.
Jon
 
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