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$$$$$$$ SCJP

C. Marls
Greenhorn

Joined: May 03, 2004
Posts: 8
OK, i'm planing to take this class and spend money on getting a java certification (SCJP), now i'm only a high school graduate, no it job experience; i've been programing cince 99, first did some z-basic and then a lot of VB. I live in the new england area and at dice.com i see a lot of jobs for java developer that don't required many skills. What pay rates do you think i will get just for having a SCJP, if i get a job at all. I'm planning to go to college, but i need a job; i love programing so if i can get a job in that area it would be great. And i already started looking at java and i love the challenge. People say that no experience, no job; but how do you actually get experience if you don't get a job when you don't have any? :roll: Some one has to pick me up as a dummy.
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
"Metax Logic",
Welcome to JavaRanch.
Please look carefully at official naming policy at javaranch & reregister yourself with proper first & last name, with a space between them. Please adhere to official naming policy & help maintain the decorum of the forum. The naming policy can be found at http://www.javaranch.com/name.jsp
--Mark
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
SCJP won't get you a job or get you a higher salary (it might have done a few years ago, but no more). What it MAY do is get your CV noticed among the hundreds of others from people your age that a recruiter or HR person sees which could land you an interview.
For experience building, write some stuff and release it yourself as freeware (just make it non-trivial serious applications) and/or join an open source project and make yourself usefull as a developer there.
I know it's hard to get a job with no experience. I was in the same situation when I started out and so were we all (though many of us had it easier as at the time there was far more demand than there is now so recruiters didn't have a choice of many experienced people wanting to work for peanuts).


42
Billy Tsai
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 23, 2003
Posts: 1304
SCJP alone is a waste of money and time even if u have a master degree in computer science or information system.


BEA 8.1 Certified Administrator, IBM Certified Solution Developer For XML 1.1 and Related Technologies, SCJP, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCDJWS, SCJD, SCEA,
Oracle Certified Master Java EE 5 Enterprise Architect
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Hi Billy,
It is depended on the location.
Please be careful of what are you saying, if I were you. This is after all, an internet forum. Think... what if your potential employer looking into this site or bring it up through your name. He/she will have very good idea what kind of potential candidate are you. Even though, you have the whole alphabet soup of certifications. If you feel like letting out steam, MD is the appropriate forum.
Regards,
MCao
C. Marls
Greenhorn

Joined: May 03, 2004
Posts: 8
I agree with matt, i think it depends in the location. I live in Maine there aren't many java programers around here and i constantly see ads online of companies looking desperately for java programers. They probably don't pay much, but i don't really need much i'm young and all i'm trying to avoid is having to work at BK or MacD's like everyone else around here does for 7bucks/h.
But now you guys are scaring me. Waste of money? I don't have much.
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Hi,
I advice stalk out the local java companies through the local college career center, it has the list of several companies in your area. Zero in the company that you think best suit to your life style, send a snail mail describe your scenario, your career goal, and ask could you have the tour of the company and specially have a chat with those developers. Check your grammar and spelling. Majority of the time, you will get the invitation. Everyone do love a young person with a head on his/her shoulders. When you meet a developer that mesh well with your chemistry, be sure to ask does he/she needed an assistant to handle mundane tasks. Stay clear of negative minds people.
BTW, how is your GPA in high school? You need to show them that you are sharp, what better to demonstrate your aptitude than your GPA. They will not require you to have any cert/advanced education. Everyone know as you grow older, your career goal also changes too. You are a virgin trying to see what is labor market is like, since you have a head, you do not have to flipping hamburger like your buddies. Trust me, I should know your position because I was in your shoes so many moons ago.
Regards,
MCao
Marc Peabody
pie sneak
Sheriff

Joined: Feb 05, 2003
Posts: 4727

I wouldn't spend much money on a class. Most classes do little more than pick a book for you to self-study anyhow. Read two chapters and we'll meet again next week. Blech!
Jeroen usually has something negative to say about certs in any ranch thread that mentions them - you'll get used to that.
Grab a few cheap books and hang out at the ranch a bit. You can learn all you need and get certified for well under 200 bucks. The ExamCram books make for an awesome reference when you first start out. When you have questions about the books, post 'em here.
Honestly, if all you want is the cert, you're wasting your time. If your motivation is to learn Java then I recommend pursuing SCJP because it will assist your commitment to learning and provide a strong path for getting to know the basics.


A good workman is known by his tools.
C. Marls
Greenhorn

Joined: May 03, 2004
Posts: 8
Thanks matt that is a great piece of advise. I do have a nice GPA at 3.6 and among other things I was a member of my school's national honor society. I don't think they would look down on me.
I think i'm going to reconsider the class, i am kind of a self-teacher. Even if i go to a class i always end up spending endless hours trying to figure out what the teacher was talking about. Thanks for the advice. I want to learn java because i love programing even though all i've done is basic and vb. I have to confess developers make good money now-a-days and that also drives me into being certified and getting a job in that field.
Also i think Jeroen has a good point, and after i get my certification I will take his advise. I don't think i'll end up releasing a project, but maybe i can come up with a nice portafolio.
Thanks everyone.
Don Stadler
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 10, 2004
Posts: 451
Originally posted by C. Marls:
I agree with matt, i think it depends in the location. I live in Maine there aren't many java programers around here and i constantly see ads online of companies looking desperately for java programers. They probably don't pay much, but i don't really need much i'm young and all i'm trying to avoid is having to work at BK or MacD's like everyone else around here does for 7bucks/h.
But now you guys are scaring me. Waste of money? I don't have much.

I don't think it's a waste of money exactly. The class is a bad idea, going the book and Javaranch route is much better. Think about buying Head First Java buy the Cowgirl and her Cowspouse.
I spent a lot of time doing the Dan Chisolm SCJP exams, especially the topic ones. Very deflating to the ego, they are! Much harder than the actual test, but you learn a lot from them!
Your marketing streategy. Basically you're going to look for a rock bottom of the market job. You may not get paid much more than a McJob because at the beginning you're sole advantage is that you'll work for much less than any experienced person or even most college grads without experience. Getting the SCJP will help you stand out in this area.
Looking in college placement centers (as Matt Cao advised) is a great way to find this kind of thing. Apart from that you might want to knock on doors of smll businesses and see what you can scare up. I'm not sure.
I used the strategy Matt outlined when starting out in a tech depression as bad as this one. It works. It's hard to live on $7 an hour but it can be done. And after a year or two nobody will care where the experience comes from. Experience is experience, if you can do the job!
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
and i constantly see ads online of companies looking desperately for java programers.

IMO, they are not desperately looking, they are extremely picky about who
they will hire.
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Hi,
The principle behind my strategy was why paying ahead when you have no idea what is the future will bring. Get inside the organization hearts and learn more than just one things at the expend of the people who charmed by you. You may earn more than the minimum wages depending on your GPA and your soft skills. Once you like the coder career, then follow Don S adviced by get the fun and educated text book, hang around this site to learn combine with what those co-workers teach you. People at work, will encourage you to enroll in college too. Study what is what you will discover once the company take you on board.
Remember the introduction letter to the company and the visit trip is not about trying to get the job! You try to create contacts, build relationships, job will come when a day, you are not even expected.
My was on Friday evening, one of the engineer got promoted. He called and ask me to join his party. I was not even qualified to drink beer at the time yet. They had paperworks ready for me to fill in and I was Engineer Assistant Intern (the word Intern in handwritten). As the engineer explained to me by him inserting the intern tittle so I could have flexible schedule for my education and yet still covered with benefits.
Regards,
MCao
Steven Broadbent
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 400
a lot of those job ads will be fake as well. Beware of this.


"....bigmouth strikes again, and I've got no right to take my place with the human race...."<p>SCJP 1.4
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
Originally posted by Steven Broadbent:
a lot of those job ads will be fake as well. Beware of this.

Indeed. And it's not always the recruitment company that fakes the ad.
There's companies out there posting jobs that don't exist to make it seem to potential investors and competitors that they are growing faster than they are.
C. Marls
Greenhorn

Joined: May 03, 2004
Posts: 8
Hi matt, are you advising me to go now without experince? Or should i wait a little until i get some more java experience. I graduated last year, and i've been working with my familly in a family own business; but the time has come for me to get into the real job market and as i said i'm willing to work hard so i don't have to flip any burgers.
About the fake jobs
Wasnt' aware of that.
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Originally posted by C. Marls:
Hi matt, are you advising me to go now without experince? Or should i wait a little until i get some more java experience. I graduated last year, and i've been working with my familly in a family own business; but the time has come for me to get into the real job market and as i said i'm willing to work hard so i don't have to flip any burgers.
About the fake jobs
Wasnt' aware of that.

Hi,
Yes, there are fake jobs existed since the dotcom boom.

You are just graduated from high school. Companies do not expected that you have any practical experience. You are lucky than a whole people that you born into a family own business. May I know what kind of business your family running in such way that how could you parlay it as your experience.
You mention that you are an aspiring Java Programmer/Developer. Are you sure this will be your future? OK. Let's assume it is. The technologies, syntax, etc. you could learn from here on this ranch, learn from your potential co-workers, your supervisor, and from college. But the experience, the how-know to run the business of any company in any industry must come from working with that particular company. You will collect the knowledge from the operations side/user side. It is far more important than the knowledge you gain from studying Java Technologies.
Companies will not trust you to crank out code for them immediately anyway. You are considered bless, if any of the engineers/developers/programmers will take you under their wings. Once they comfortable with your verbal & flowchart logics. They will walk with you when you do a first few actual coding. After they test you on your syntax.
The hardest thing is get into the company and get into the professional hearts. Once you establish them, the rest are considered try and learn by errors.
Be prepare to answer them why are delayed your continue education. The longer you delay to join the company, the harder the interview process and questions will be. You will not be a fresh young thing forever...
I joined the labor force since junior year in high shool because I wanted the exotic sport car that my neighbor down the street owning. But it never mentioned while trying to build the relationship with the engineers. They might said go flipping hamburger for it. Darn, it would be a million hamburgers.
Regards,
MCao
[ May 08, 2004: Message edited by: Matt Cao ]
C. Marls
Greenhorn

Joined: May 03, 2004
Posts: 8
Hi matt, i've been working as a general helper in my family's business. They have a cleaning company that works mostly for movietheaters in newengland and newyork. They do the general cleaning of the theathers.
Well I help my mom on the office doing whatever she needs me to do(not fun), and on the computer i don't do much just use word and sometimes quickbooks to make checks. Well when her computer crashes i am the one that try to solves all the problems. Sometimes i also have to go and do cleaning as well(really not fun).
Along with that title comes another one; webmaster :-) I built and manage a webpage for a rental house in florida here is the link www.amagicalvacation.net or www.amagicalvacation.co.uk well, that's more fun, but i don't really do much anymore on that. After i built it and set everything up, i ran out of things to do on that. If you can suggest me of a java program i could make in the future to enjance the page so i can put on my resume that i have some realworld experience it would be great.
I don't have taxes to prove that i've worked because i didnt' really get a pay check last year, i was just getting some money as grattitud for my servises, lol. Now i'm gettimg payed but i don't like doing this because most of the time i end up cleaning movie theathers. I will pay taxes next year. I hope I have to pay a lot, that would mean i got a good job and made a lot of money :-)
I want to mayor in computer science hardware, and learn the software part from classes or by myself because is easier to learn software for me. I love programing, and if i land a job in that area where i can get experience and climb to the top, i will be a happy person.
Thanks
Ko Ko Naing
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 08, 2002
Posts: 3178
Originally posted by Marc Peabody:
Grab a few cheap books and hang out at the ranch a bit. You can learn all you need and get certified for well under 200 bucks. The ExamCram books make for an awesome reference when you first start out. When you have questions about the books, post 'em here.

Supporting this approach, when I prepared for the SCJP 1.2, there wasn't a lot of books in the market... I could get SCJP for under 150 bucks... Cos I got the exam voucher with discount, cos I borrowed Java books from the university library and some online notes as well...
So I also vote for not attending a class for SCJP... Just my suggestion....


Co-author of SCMAD Exam Guide, Author of JMADPlus
SCJP1.2, CCNA, SCWCD1.4, SCBCD1.3, SCMAD1.0, SCJA1.0, SCJP6.0
Ko Ko Naing
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 08, 2002
Posts: 3178
Originally posted by C. Marls:
Hi matt, i've been working as a general helper in my family's business. They have a cleaning company that works mostly for movietheaters in newengland and newyork. They do the general cleaning of the theathers.
Well I help my mom on the office doing whatever she needs me to do(not fun), and on the computer i don't do much just use word and sometimes quickbooks to make checks. Well when her computer crashes i am the one that try to solves all the problems. Sometimes i also have to go and do cleaning as well(really not fun).

IMO, if I am in ur shoes, I will handle and try to promote the company with some computer-related stuff like... As for me, I want to be an entrpreneur, rather than working for others... If you have experience in working under someone, u will feel the taste... U also have to beware of the manager's face like when will he be mad at me? Did I do sthing wrong? U know what I mean?
IMO, I would really like to be a boss, rather than working for a boss...
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Originally posted by C. Marls:
Hi matt, i've been working as a general helper in my family's business. They have a cleaning company that works mostly for movietheaters in newengland and newyork. They do the general cleaning of the theathers.

Hi,
At least you are a Billy not Julio. Let's pretend this is an impromptu interview. No need to answer them. I just try to help you to think, to see from an interviewer side.
1.) Could you describe to me how it is the cleaning business run?
2.) Where do you obtain the funding?
3.) How do you book the theater works?
4.) Explain the bidding process?
5.) How do obtain the equipments to do the cleaning?
6.) Do you acquire outside helper?
7.) What is the compensation process?
8.) How do you forecast the business flow?
9.) If you have to hire a manager, what is your business ratio tolerance for this manager performance?
I could go on and on. This is what I meant by operations. They also enclose several processes. The processes could be automated with computerization, in your case Java, if you wishes. The operations could not be automated by computerization, this is where business people have a leg up on those technical folks.


Well I help my mom on the office doing whatever she needs me to do(not fun), and on the computer i don't do much just use word and sometimes quickbooks to make checks. Well when her computer crashes i am the one that try to solves all the problems. Sometimes i also have to go and do cleaning as well(really not fun).

On similar I could throw some questions here too.


Along with that title comes another one; webmaster :-) I built and manage a webpage for a rental house in florida here is the link www.amagicalvacation.net or www.amagicalvacation.co.uk well, that's more fun, but i don't really do much anymore on that. After i built it and set everything up, i ran out of things to do on that. If you can suggest me of a java program i could make in the future to enjance the page so i can put on my resume that i have some realworld experience it would be great.

I will take a look at them and give you feedbacks later.

I don't have taxes to prove that i've worked because i didnt' really get a pay check last year, i was just getting some money as grattitud for my servises, lol. Now i'm gettimg payed but i don't like doing this because most of the time i end up cleaning movie theathers. I will pay taxes next year. I hope I have to pay a lot, that would mean i got a good job and made a lot of money :-)

I only remember Uncle Sam when people twisted my arms.

I want to mayor in computer science hardware, and learn the software part from classes or by myself because is easier to learn software for me. I love programing, and if i land a job in that area where i can get experience and climb to the top, i will be a happy person.
Thanks

Thinks harder on those questions and try to come up with a software, Java Technologies great, without them, it's OK. Have yourself a porfolio, fully documentations describe every single processes, flowcharts, data dictionaries, etc.
Locate a Java companies in your local and show them your potentials, I am sure those profs know how to read cross languages and technologies. The bottom line is showing your potential. You are young, company will invest in you. Do not look down on your family business, working for people even harder and not fun too.
Remember what I said, create contacts, build relationships. Have a clear focus of your career, if you continue define it, every year. About your high school reunion, you will be more successful than majority of your classmates.
Regards,
MCao
C. Marls
Greenhorn

Joined: May 03, 2004
Posts: 8
I don't underlook the business it's just that it is a stablish business that my parents don't want to spand or grow any more. There are over a hundred employees and everything is run by my mom in the office. All the employees go to a theather in growps of 3 or 4 sometimes 2, and even 6. They work in that theather seven days a week and that's it. My dad does extra work in everytheather when it is required. I don't have much oportunity there, and i like technologies and there's no techonlogy involve in that.
The webpage; we are working on expanding it and listing some other villlas(don't know how to inplement java on that). Now, i don't really want to rely on just that; that is why i want to get a job, go to college, and then in my spare time i can keep managing the villas site and work around that to make it sucessfull.
I don't really want to get involve much with the cleaning business because that's just not my area. But any suggestions on the webpage would be great.
Thanks!!!
C. Marls
Greenhorn

Joined: May 03, 2004
Posts: 8
I already started learning java. A friend of mine had some material from the curriculum of the cisco networking academi fundamentals of java programing course. He never used the material but i think it's pretty good because it has labs and all. I'm happy, i'm goint to leard java .
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Hi,

Sorry for slow respond in regarding to the webpages, I have so many pet projects for my company...

I like the webpages logic, somehow it is a little bit slow in loading. Among the ranchers, I notice a fellow named John Travolta.. . His webpages are very professional presenting. If the vacation thing business is also your family business, I think you should invest more time and energy into it. I know a several people in lifestyle business, very successful in term of money.


Regards,
MCao
C. Marls
Greenhorn

Joined: May 03, 2004
Posts: 8
Thanks, i dint' really notice the speed of the site was low because i always use broadband. I did check though and it is too slow in dialup and probably some other conections that are being used a lot. I will make some changes into that since probably the images are making it load too long. I'm goint to be upgrading my computer tonight, i got a new everything for it i hope everything works fine so i can be online tomorrow afternoon with a faster computer. Thanks for all the posts. Yesterday i learn how to use psp templates for web pages, so i'll be able to do more profecional looking web sites prety soon.
Roger Graff
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 112
You mentioned that your family has a business. Why not write an application for the family business? You will have to do some brainstorming to figure out what that application should do. Maybe there's an existing application already in use that you could re-write in Java.

The best way to learn is to jump right in a-la sink or swim style.
 
 
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