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GB vs the USA

Zenko Popapranec
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 05, 2004
Posts: 3
If it's so hard to be a developer in the U.S.A., why don't everybody migrate to the U.K.? I've read U.K. market is picking up. U.K. has very strict rules of taking a job while being from outside the country, but so does the U.S.A. Why don't millions of chinese and indian IT workers fill the market hole there?
Jay Shin
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 14, 2004
Posts: 169

why don't everybody migrate to the U.K.? I've read U.K. market is picking up. U.K. Why don't millions of chinese and indian IT workers fill the market hole there?



I've been only watching New York City area, so I dont' know much about other areas in the U.S (such as Silicon Valley or Texas, etc.)

But at least for NYC area, I know for sure that lots of Indians have already migrated to other countries.

Until about 3-5 years ago, almost half of all developers in NYC were Indians (just my rough estimate), and nowadays I see more Ukrainians than Indians.
[ November 05, 2004: Message edited by: Jay Shin ]
Arjun Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1871
Now a days there are opportunities(moneywise) in Asian countries.There are opporutnities(not necessary J2EE) in Malasia,Indonasia,Singapore etc.Many people here prefer these locations bcos of their nearness.Domestic market,which was dull until now is also picking up as many multinationals are having contract with companies providing domestic services.


MH
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
Originally posted by Zenko Popapranec:
...


Also in UK no one gets 60K for 6 months of 'HTML programming' experience! They would get 15K, and government takes 40% in tax, and they have to pay 1.6 USD for a litre (not gallon) or patrol � now that should give you some idea about everything else.


[ flickr ]
Prema Chakravarthy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 13, 2004
Posts: 91
Because, we love America! I would rather switch careers than move from the US.
Suman Sarker
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 06, 2004
Posts: 68
Originally posted by Prema Chakravarthy:
Because, we love America! I would rather switch careers than move from the US.

Wish it were so easy for people in other countries to switch their careers.


Suman A Sarker<br />SCJP, SCWCD, SCBCD<br /> <br />If You Can't Beat Them ... Join Them!
Prema Chakravarthy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 13, 2004
Posts: 91
It is not that easy in the US either. But I agree that there is a better chance here in the US than else where in the world.
Jesse Torres
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
Originally posted by Jay Shin:



True. Even more so if you're not white caucasian. Some countries in Europe have higher level of racial discrimination than the U.S.


What do you mean by even more if you're not white caucasian?
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi all !

there is a better chance here in the US than else where in the world.

What do you mean with "a better chance" ? Unless you think about a particular point this is obviously silly, some countries obviously show better chances in general than US even in europe (not mine saddly, I'm french). Appart for the single case of communist countries where you are given a job or authorized to have the one you chose, all countries can offer good chances or even much better chances than US on some points.
Simply consider switzerland and luxembourg which since more than 30 years have no unemployment (about 3.5 % so none in fact because it is residual rate even when everyone has or finds a job quickly), have a high living standard comparable to US, have a much better balanced society than US because of moderate distance between rich and poor, many rich people too, and without any doubt offer MUCH BETTER CHANCES than US on educational field. In US you will have a good education for a few people who can afford it for it is awfully expensive and public education is crap. GW Bush had to admit this as he needs to fight very bad present financial US situation by economics growth, which implies better educated people, which simply cannot be done yet considering US public educational system which is a mess as americans themselves say.
So you are obviously wrong on this point, and if it looks like, as I recently heard on a serious broadband station, many US citizens wonder about leaving US for emigrating to australia, new-zealand and canada, there must be a good reason, think about it.

True. Even more so if you're not white caucasian. Some countries in Europe have higher level of racial discrimination than the U.S.

False, I am an european and there are no real racial issues in any european country, and even if there may be latent ones they are totally forbidden by all european laws, making them much lower than in US where they have become scarce. When I went to US in summer 1998 (RTP area, NC) I saw on many cars the motto "a black man can", but despite of this I didn't see any real racial issue, you can expect even much lower or non in europe.
In fact there are other less obvious issues such as ethnicity, religion (muslim only), or political related. The great debate in europe is about adopting turkey in EEC while it has 5% of its territory in europe, has turned radical muslim (for party at power at least), and is much poorer than all other european countries even when considering ex-USSR satellites, making it a catastrophic financial burden for europe.

It is sad you seem not to know at all europe and in general rest of the world, because you would learn very interesting things. Are you conscious that population of your "forever unconditional allies" british and canadians mostly hate US now ? Find some and ask them why, it will be interesting for you to find out why old friends are recently turning out as foes. Of course I know why, but it is much more constructive if you find out by yourself. The US people were still friends to most other countries untill not long ago, but they are no longer for many reasons, and responsabilities are shared.

Don't believe I'm against you for it is the contrary in fact, I whish I could emigrate to USA as qualified in IT field but I surely won't be able to because of present visa mess which in practice simply makes hiring of aliens impossible for 5 years, even if USA looses business everyday because many jobs can't be fullfilled and must be done abroad. I know US people know very bad countries outside USA except when they originate from them, so you simply show a great lack of knowledge on this point. Look for philosophical "cavern's myth" and read it, you will understand what I mean.

Best regards.


Eric LEMAITRE
CNAM IT Engineer, MS/CS (RHCE, RHCX, SCJA, SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA, Net+)
Free Online Tutorials: http://www.free-tutorials-online.net/
Warren Dew
blacksmith
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 04, 2004
Posts: 1332
    
    1
Eric Lemaitre:

have a much better balanced society than US because of moderate distance between rich and poor, many rich people too, and without any doubt offer MUCH BETTER CHANCES than US on educational field. In US you will have a good education for a few people who can afford it for it is awfully expensive and public education is crap.

Some people here may need to find out more about Europe as you say, but you may need to find out more about the U.S. I doubt that private primary and secondary schooling is noticeably higher quality here than public schooling; most people who send their kids to private schools do so for religious reasons.

At the university level, private schools may be somewhat better than public universities, but many of the latter are quite highly regarded as well (e.g., Berkeley). In fact, it seems like U.S. universities are good enough that they consistently attract a lot of students from overseas.
Zenko Popapranec
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 05, 2004
Posts: 3
Also in UK no one gets 60K for 6 months of 'HTML programming' experience! They would get 15K, and government takes 40% in tax


Hmmm, as I know you get 24K being fresh grad and 40K having 2-years experience. The real tax for earning 3K a month is about 20% of total (taking into consideration all tax tresholds). If you don't spend all money on clubbing, you spend 1K/a person/a month, so you can save GBP 1400/a month. GBP 1400 is enough to buy wonderful holidays on one of the spanish beaches, laying in the sun and doing nothing (ofcoz if there's someone who can forget about a job during holidays ).
So, I'll ask again, is it so hard in GB for IT workers?

Best regards
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
many US citizens wonder about leaving US for emigrating to australia, new-zealand and canada, there must be a good reason, think about it.


The people you are hearing about that are considering leaving are an extremely small minority, not even worth counting in fact. That said, the number of people immigrating to this country vastly outweighs the very small number of people who wish to leave it. There must be a good reason, think about it.

False, I am an european and there are no real racial issues in any european country

That is so completely false. I lived in Europe for a few years and witnessed far more open racism than I have ever seen in the US. In fact, when I came back I would tell people that if they think we had racial issues here, they needed to visit Europe where it is much worse.

Are you conscious that population of your "forever unconditional allies" british and canadians mostly hate US now ?

Are you conscious that on the whole, we don't care what others think of us? And why should we care? I doubt Europeans really care what Americans think of them either, do they?

I know US people know very bad countries outside USA except when they originate from them, so you simply show a great lack of knowledge on this point.

This is yet another great European myth - the myth of the "ignorant" American. Don't worry, many of us do get around. I would be willing to bet that I've been to quite a bit more places in the world than the average European, so I really have a problem when people say this.
[ November 07, 2004: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
peter wooster
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 13, 2004
Posts: 1033
Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Are you conscious that population of your "forever unconditional allies" british and canadians mostly hate US now ?

Are you conscious that on the whole, we don't care what others think of us? And why should we care? I doubt Europeans really care what Americans think of them either, do they?


When my wife says "I don't care what you think", I get worried that she really cares a great deal about it. Americans actually care a great deal as well about what the rest of the world thinks (see comments on ignorance later in your post).

As far as Canadians hating Americans, that's ridiculous. We are so similar that others have a hard time telling us apart. We often don't agree on their choice of government, or its actions, but neither do they and we have our disagreements about our own.

The province where I live just got rid of an arrogant, rural, neo-con, Tory government that ran up a huge deficit by handing out tax cuts. It took 8 years to realize the mistake. I was in Texas when they first got elected and considered staying, it was more liberal.
Tim Holloway
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jun 25, 2001
Posts: 15627
    
  15

I get disturbed when people "don't care" for one simple reason:

<h1>These are present and future customers of American Businesses we're pissing off!!!</h1>


Customer surveys are for companies who didn't pay proper attention to begin with.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Tim Holloway:
I get disturbed when people "don't care" for one simple reason:...


And likewise, these are present and future customers of European businesses that they are pissing off.
Ben Poole
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 17, 2003
Posts: 33
Originally posted by Zenko Popapranec:
Hmmm, as I know you get 24K being fresh grad and 40K having 2-years experience. The real tax for earning 3K a month is about 20% of total (taking into consideration all tax tresholds). If you don't spend all money on clubbing, you spend 1K/a person/a month, so you can save GBP 1400/a month.
Piffle! I've worked in IT for six years, and I've been out of university for nine. I don't earn the kind of money you implicitly suggest (if 2 years' experience = �40k, I'd love to know what that job pays after 9 years!)

Whilst the market in the UK has picked up, it's still not great. There are some graduate coding jobs for the �20 - 25k mark (especially in London), but there are plenty that don't come close.

The cost of living in the UK is very high too, and your tax calculation is off, sorry. I don't know anyone who can save �1400 per month!!
[ November 08, 2004: Message edited by: Ben Poole ]
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Prema Chakravarthy:
Because, we love America! I would rather switch careers than move from the US.


Thanks Prema for saying that. Immigrants like you will always be welcome in the USA.


Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
danny liu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 185
In my private view, living in US is much better than Europe for IT guys.

First, you don't need to speak differenct languages.
Second, salary is higher in States.
Third, main IT companies are located in States.
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi all !

Thanks Prema for saying that. Immigrants like you will always be welcome in the USA.

But saddly immigrants like him cannot consider any longer coming so being welcome in USA anyway. Some weeks ago I discussed with one american who is a top authority JDO expert (Java Data Object), asking him the "real" options to consider for immigrating to USA. I expected things like "talent, good education, faith in the country, hard working, ..." and such things, but his answer was much more pragmatical than I expected for best immigration options : 1) marriage, 2) DV lottery.
In clear an illeterate burger flipper still owns much more chances to be chosen for immigration through DV than a valuable IT professionnal through labor visas. Getting directly a GC is impossible except for nobel prices, a standard H1B is impossible too as 65000 quota is totally consumed in 1 day by the renewed former 150000 emitted before, and L1 is for foreign companies subsidiaries in US only. So in practice no US company can make officialy immigrate any alien for hire for 5 years, then how could the valuable immigrants come in ? If law doesn't change, it will remain impossible for about 5 years (for max H1B duration is 6 years).
Even at the peak time of internet bubble when sillicon valey was short of recruiters and unemployment rate negative, public inquiries even at this time when alien IT immigrants seemed an absolute need for US prosperity was 50% only. This leads to the conclusion that even at this favourable era americans were clearly against immigration. I would be very curious to know how many americans are now in favor of immigration. I would say 20% only, IMHO immigrants are no longer welcome in US.

Best regards.
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi all !

In my private view, living in US is much better than Europe for IT guys.

Despite you private view is obviously respectable, this looks to me totally impossible to compare for wages variations are too important and types of compensations which influent much salary (advantages in nature, paid healt expenses, ...) are too different between european countries, and even within the same country. And as usual what really counts is cost of living which can easilly deny salary advantage. In switzerland for example, cost of living is at least twice for everything compared to france, so expatriating for working in switzerland for twice his salary is clearly of no interest at all for a french.
It looks as well impossible to compare wages between US states, a mere 40K U.S.$ would be a crap in Boston but a fortune in some small middlewest town because of huge cost of living difference.

First, you don't need to speak different languages.

Not any longer in IT field, english is OK for working everywhere in europe except for sales personnal towards their local clients.

Second, salary is higher in States.

Not relevant, salary doesn't mean anything as long as it is not checked against cost of living within an area, check for switzerland example above. Furthermore, wages in US are getting much lower and even scandalously low on some occasions as some employers obviously want to take advantage of jobless IT people who need to work at any price. You will easily find examples in any job related site, I found mines on "monster.com" in my case (30K for J2ME developpers in CA).

Third, main IT companies are located in States.

Interesting point to check again later, for it could easily become false with time. As IT was born in US and developped there, you are totally right for past and present IT technologies, but you could be wrong for new ones to come. Three events have become of utmost importance in IT field : 1) you can now really seriously consider working virtually from anywhere in world with only small local sales points (hence outsoursing success), 2) investment in US for civilian IT has totally collapsed (contrary to military of course) because of Endron syndrom so civil IT innovation in US is virtually stopped right now, 3) USA is clearly the biggest mandatory market for sales but not mandatory at all for producing (where most numerous jobs are, if you have doubts consider gigantic economical exchange deficit of USA towards china).
This will make things really interesting, for this practically nullifies the advance americans had on civilian IT field (was considered as 2 years) for emergent techologies. For example clear leader of very promising Java persistence technology is french, not US. Despite both sides have real experts and surely excellent staff, the frenchies overwhelmed their US counterpart not only because of their excellent technology but also because of a simple fact : they could have much more investment founds from europe than their yankee concurrent from US for development. Now that investment for innovative IT products is at low in US, a gigantic opportunity exists for valuable alien IT innovators.
What is more, as soon as possible successful alien companies open branches/subsidiaries in US for sales, making chances of native US concurrents low for investment as they are not the leaders on this field, so US investors who bet for the surest rather invest on aliens. And it is not sure at all anything will be done against this as it boosts US local business and employment anyway. So tomorrow leaders for emergent IT technologies could easily be alien companies employing US personnal, but not US companies, which in term of business and employment would give practically the same result.

Of course this is a fair criticism of what you say "main IT companies are located in States", yes I agree, but although located in US main ones may easily become alien companies. Some alien companies are even leaders right now on US soil before their US counterparts (Airbus, Michelin) but they employ massively US personnal (about 95%) so this is not bad anyway.

In all at present, virtual Internet working forces abilities and low investment for innovation making alien counterparts investment force superior make USA totally even about new emergent IT techologies in face of any other developped country.
This possible scenario is presently confirmed by weakness of U.S.$ against euro in particular, showing the great lack of confidence of US investors for their own economy while in counterpart european and asian invest massively in US for the same reasons. This weakness if of very little advantage to US for they import much more than they export (hence their gigantic economical exchange deficit), so induced exportation boost is poor help.

Best regards.
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
Originally posted by Zenko Popapranec:
Hmmm, as I know you get 24K being fresh grad and 40K having 2-years experience. The real tax for earning 3K a month is about 20% of total (taking into consideration all tax tresholds). If you don't spend all money on clubbing, you spend 1K/a person/a month, so you can save GBP 1400/a month.


A fresh grad gets more like 12 to 15K (18 if he or she is really good), in the UK, and an programmer with 4 to 5 years experience will earn between 28 to 36K, and anything above 30K is way above national average, and 35+ is considered 'serious money'!

If you are an ace Engineer, earning 36K a year, you monthly take home (after 40%+ tax) would work out to something like 2K, and with the state of the housing market in the UK (which has started showing signs of slowing down now, but its been booming for last 6-8 years), a two bedroom apartment would cost you 160K, and that on mortage (interest rate is higher than in EU) means close to 1K knocked off your income. (If you were to rent, its the same story, thats why people buy property). Now you have 1K spending money for everything else, and keep in mind, a litre of petrol is a little more than a sterling, which is like 2 USD.

End of the month, if carefully planned, one might save a few hundred quids, and a couple of hundred pounds would buy you a week away in Spain or South of France. Now compare that with that of the USA, and you have your answer!
Joe King
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 02, 2003
Posts: 820
Originally posted by Jason Menard:

False, I am an european and there are no real racial issues in any european country
That is so completely false. I lived in Europe for a few years and witnessed far more open racism than I have ever seen in the US. In fact, when I came back I would tell people that if they think we had racial issues here, they needed to visit Europe where it is much worse.


This too seems to be false. I truly cannot remember the last time I saw something racist, or heard a racist comment, and I live in London. While there will always be a small part of society that is racist, I must stress that in most of Europe it is a very small part. The situation is different across different parts of Europe (some eastern European countries do have race problems), but in western Europe racism is very much a rare occurrence.


Are you conscious that population of your "forever unconditional allies" british and canadians mostly hate US now ?
Are you conscious that on the whole, we don't care what others think of us? And why should we care? I doubt Europeans really care what Americans think of them either, do they?


I think hate is a bit of a strong word. A lot of Europeans are fed up with American foreign policy, but this doesn't mean that they hate the US, just dislike the US government. This is a very different thing. An example - every American I've ever spoken to has seemed very nice, but I dislike the government very much. I don't hate the US, and I'm not anti-American... but I do disagree with their choice of government .

Most Europeans are very conscious of the fact that the US doesn't care what they think, but to be honest the feeling is probably not mutual. This is because US policy has a large effect on the rest of the world, so Europeans naturally want their needs to effect this policy. One regular factor of European commentary of the US is how US policy effects Europe - things like the "war" on terrorism, Kyoto treaty, international trade etc effect Europeans a lot, and there is a concern that if the US doesn't care about Europe then US decisions could badly effect Europeans.

The business community is very concerned about how Americans and Europeans think of each other, as this has a large effect on trade.
[ November 09, 2004: Message edited by: Joe King ]
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Joe King:
This too seems to be false. I truly cannot remember the last time I saw something racist, or heard a racist comment, and I live in London. While there will always be a small part of society that is racist, I must stress that in most of Europe it is a very small part. The situation is different across different parts of Europe (some eastern European countries do have race problems), but in western Europe racism is very much a rare occurrence.


The racism I saw directed towards Turks in Germany was pretty harsh in my opinion. I also saw racism towards blacks there. This is all well documented in the press however. Less well documented was the racism that I fully expect was completely accepted as normal by the gerneral populace. For example, there was a brand of ice cream sold on the streets in Germany called Neiger-Ice (spelling?). The symbol for this brand of ice cream was a nearly naked African pygmy warrior, ring through the nose, spear in hand, done up in black-face. What about France? There's quite a rash of anti-semitism going on over there, isn't there? And they have recently passed laws which certainly may be viewed as anti-Muslim. Whether or not the bombing of a Muslim school in the Netherlands was an isolated incident remains to be seen.

In Britain it seemed a bit more subtle. When I lived in England, the thing I noticed was that they had an epithet for everyone and these seemed to be in far more common usage than would be acceptable in the US at least. Commonly referring to Pakistanis as Pakis, for example. I saw more hostility directed towards the Pakistanis there than I have ever seen directed towards a racial minority in this country. Are you telling me you never read a tabloid referring to the French as "frogs"? I remember after an apparently important football game between England and Cameroon, which I believe Cameroon won, the English coach saying something along the lines that "those monkeys need to go back to their trees" in reference to the team from Cameroon. While I was shocked, this inconceivably seemed to cause barely any ripples in the British press.

And one of the most accepted and out in the open forms of racism rampant throughout Europe - anti-Americanism. I'd been subject to it first hand back in the late 80's - early 90's, so it certainly isn't any recent phenomona. As rampant as racism of one form or another in Europe appears, I've seent it far worse in other places - Japan, for example.

The topic seems to be wandering though and I'm not sure what this has to do with Jobs. I would have preferred to refute you via email, but you have chosen not associate an email with your JavaRanch account.
[ November 09, 2004: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
Jayesh Lalwani
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 05, 2004
Posts: 502
Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
Hi all !

But saddly immigrants like him cannot consider any longer coming so being welcome in USA anyway. Some weeks ago I discussed with one american who is a top authority JDO expert (Java Data Object), asking him the "real" options to consider for immigrating to USA. I expected things like "talent, good education, faith in the country, hard working, ..." and such things, but his answer was much more pragmatical than I expected for best immigration options : 1) marriage, 2) DV lottery.


And as we all know, JDO experts are also experts on immigration matters

:roll: Maybe I should have consulted a JDO expert when I was applying for my GC
Jayesh Lalwani
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 05, 2004
Posts: 502
Originally posted by Jason Menard:



In Britain it seemed a bit more subtle. Wneh I lived in England, the thing I noticed was that they had an epithet for everyone and these seemed to be in far more common usage than would be acceptable in the US at least. Commonly referring to Pakistanis as Pakis, for example. I saw more hostility directed towards the Pakistanis there than I have ever seen directed towards a racial minority in this country. Are you telling me you never read a tabloid referring to the French as "frogs"? I remember after an apparently important football game between England and Cameroon, which I believe Cameroon won, the English coach saying something along the lines that "those monkeys need to go back to their trees" in reference to the team from Cameroon. While I was shocked, this inconceivably seemed to cause barely any ripples in the British press.

[ November 09, 2004: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]


The problem is that differrent countries have differrent definitions of racism. In my country, I was constantly being called cheapskate and money-grubber by my friends, because of my race, and I used to call my friends low-class because of their race. I had to come to US to understand how blatantly racist Indian society is. In my view, with regards to racism, US is more sensitive than European and Asian countries. So, although, those epithets might be seen as racist by an American, many people living in those countries dont see themselves as racist.

Jayesh
Frank Silbermann
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1379
Originally posted by Joe King:
Most Europeans are very conscious of the fact that the US doesn't care what they think, but to be honest the feeling is probably not mutual. This is because US policy has a large effect on the rest of the world, so Europeans naturally want their needs to effect this policy.


Well, Europeans are certainly doing a terrible job communicating their disagreements. It's hard to take seriously criticism coming from people who sound as if they're interpreting events through a Marxist framework.

One can disagree on what are the most promising tactics for pursuing G.W.'s noble goals, but what can one do but ignore loonatics who claim that his intent was primarily to steal foreign oil, create an empire, or enrich his friends? It's wrong to say that Americans don't _care_ what Europeans think, but there's just not a lot we can do with people who say things like that.

Obviously it's a good idea to consider the welfare of our allies, but should we even be allied with a government which, in exchange for opposing us in the U.N., accepts bribes (in the form of promises of future adventageous oil contracts) from our enemy? Or one that organizes a U.N. conference on "small arms" to try to force upon us a policy that we consider to be a violation of our fundamental human rights?

It's not just our foreign policy that Europeans hate about us. They hate us because we execute some of our crueler murderers (but Europeans find roon it in their heart to understand and forgive Palestinians who feel free to assassinate anyone they disagree with). They hate us because we proudly own and use firearms for legal and righteous non-sporting purposes -- that we value the lives and freedom of crime victims over the lives of muggers, rapists and burglars. They hate us because our culture is vulgar (which literally means "common") -- not recognizing that this is the price one pays for having a (comparatively) classless society. They sneer at Americans for attending church regularly. They hate us for equating right and left-wing radicalism, national socialism with international socialism in our domestic politics.

Let me say that I do care what Europeans think of America; I care very much. But that doesn't justify giving in to harmful international peer pressure.
[ November 09, 2004: Message edited by: Frank Silbermann ]
Frank Silbermann
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1379
Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:

First, you don't need to speak different languages.

Not any longer in IT field, english is OK for working everywhere in europe except for sales personnal towards their local clients.


That may be true in Europe, but it's not always true in the U.S. Funnily enough, when I was looking for a job in Miami, Florida (USA) I was disqualified for a number of them because I don't speak the language.
danny liu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 185
Eric,

Not any longer in IT field, english is OK for working everywhere in europe except for sales personnal towards their local clients.

IT professionals still need to use local languages more or less. Otherwise, they are difficult to get used to their new lives.

Not relevant, salary doesn't mean anything as long as it is not checked against cost of living within an area, check for switzerland example above. Furthermore, wages in US are getting much lower and even scandalously low on some occasions as some employers obviously want to take advantage of jobless IT people who need to work at any price. You will easily find examples in any job related site, I found mines on "monster.com" in my case (30K for J2ME developpers in CA).

The extreme cases happen everywhere, even in GB. The AVERAGE wage rate in states is higher than many european countries which seems more attactive. BTW, the unemployment rate is much higher in EU.

Dan
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
Originally posted by Frank Silbermann:
It's not just our foreign policy that Europeans hate about us. ... They hate us because we proudly own and use firearms for legal and righteous non-sporting purposes -- that we value the lives and freedom of crime victims over the lives of muggers, rapists and burglars. They hate us because our culture is vulgar (which literally means "common") -- not recognizing that this is the price one pays for having a (comparatively) classless society. They sneer at Americans for attending church regularly.


Ah come on now, you know these are not quite right. Europeans has an issue with American gun culture, but they are not worried about those millions who have a gun just to feel safe, or even those who use it hunt, Europeans area worried about the bad side of the bigger picture, teenagers massacring dozens in classrooms, drive by shootings, general lawlessness etc. Europeans are worried about the lack of value of life of the victims in America, because every thief, even a 10 year old shop lifter looking for a pack of sweet candies turns up with a lethal weapon, and well, you know the story! But I guess it�s a whole different discussion.

Also, its not just the Europeans who have issues with certain aspects of American culture, you can call them all jealous or snobbish or whatever, but you know there is some truth in it.
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Just a friendly reminder from your bartender (not directed at any one or any post in particular)...

I've been letting this thread go because it think it is related to job discussion. Certainly the original topic is. While it has dirfted to discussions of racism, I feel racism in the job market is a valid topic. It should not just be ignored as a taboo topic. (Although if the original poster wants to steer it back to GB vs USA, we should let him do so.)

However, let us be mindful that it can be a powder keg, and we don't want it to turn into a flame war, or general venting about racism. What passes in Meaningless Drivel won't here.

--Mark
Abhi Parashar
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 26, 2004
Posts: 11
Would just want to add my two pence here:


I am an indian currently on a work permit in the UK. I have studied and then worked in US for 4 four years.

US is way ahead of the UK in all forms of life.One's salary and buying power is huge in the US.Consider buying a car.A new Accord would come at something like $18k in the US and a similar model would be �17k in the UK.Of course the in hand salary left in the UK is very less.

I came to the UK thinking that it must be comparable to the US,But frankly I was better off in India where I was being paid huge(by indian standards).
Life in UK is only slightly better than Bangalore(if you make good money by Indian standards).

Given the fact that I am not able to provide a good lifestyle to my family in London , I am seriously thinking of going back to India.....(and the peace of mind).
Jesse Torres
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
Originally posted by Frank Silbermann:


That may be true in Europe, but it's not always true in the U.S. Funnily enough, when I was looking for a job in Miami, Florida (USA) I was disqualified for a number of them because I don't speak the language.


What language are you talking about? <h1>English is the official language of U.S.A</h1>
[ November 09, 2004: Message edited by: Jesse Torres ]
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18101
    
  39

What language are you talking about?
English is the official language of U.S.A


Interesting detour from the original question... so I'll jump in...

First, US does not have an official language. I am sure certain members of congress are still trying, but no, I don't think anyone succeeded.

And Second, anyone who has been in Miami knows that you will struggle communicating in certain locations without some spanish. (which luckily for me, my wife speaks pretty well)

Henry


Books: Java Threads, 3rd Edition, Jini in a Nutshell, and Java Gems (contributor)
Jesse Torres
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
Originally posted by Henry Wong:


Interesting detour from the original question... so I'll jump in...

First, US does not have an official language. I am sure certain members of congress are still trying, but no, I don't think anyone succeeded.

And Second, anyone who has been in Miami knows that you will struggle communicating in certain locations without some spanish. (which luckily for me, my wife speaks pretty well)

Henry


You are right about America not having an official language. I stand corrected.
Jesse Torres
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
Originally posted by Henry Wong:

And Second, anyone who has been in Miami knows that you will struggle communicating in certain locations without some spanish.


Even in IT positions?
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18101
    
  39

Even in IT positions?


That I do not know. I never lived or worked in Miami.

I was just pointing out what Frank might have been referring to when he said he didn't speak the language.

Henry
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
But saddly immigrants like him cannot consider any longer coming so being welcome in USA anyway. Some weeks ago I discussed with one american who is a top authority JDO expert (Java Data Object), asking him the "real" options to consider for immigrating to USA. I expected things like "talent, good education, faith in the country, hard working, ..." and such things, but his answer was much more pragmatical than I expected for best immigration options : 1) marriage, 2) DV lottery.

...I would be very curious to know how many americans are now in favor of immigration. I would say 20% only, IMHO immigrants are no longer welcome in US.


Current immigration laws give preference to reuniting families. I would like to see a crack down on illegal immigration, an end to H1B visas except in very special circumstances, and an increase in the number of lottery spots.

I think I am typical of most Americans. We are opposed to immigrant migrant workers (I'll live in the US as long as the economy is good but as soon as I have enough money or the economy turns bad I'm going back home). But we support the idea of hard working people from around the world coming to the US to enjoy our freedom and become permanent residents and ultimately citizens of the USA.
Jayesh Lalwani
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 05, 2004
Posts: 502
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:


Current immigration laws give preference to reuniting families. I would like to see a crack down on illegal immigration, an end to H1B visas except in very special circumstances, and an increase in the number of lottery spots.

I think I am typical of most Americans. We are opposed to immigrant migrant workers (I'll live in the US as long as the economy is good but as soon as I have enough money or the economy turns bad I'm going back home). But we support the idea of hard working people from around the world coming to the US to enjoy our freedom and become permanent residents and ultimately citizens of the USA.



That's interesting!! So, if unemployment rates start increasing, you would prefer that immigrants stay in the country while citizens are laid off??
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi Thomas !

Current immigration laws give preference to reuniting families. I would like to see a crack down on illegal immigration, an end to H1B visas except in very special circumstances, and an increase in the number of lottery spots.

You won't see illegal immigration down anyday as rich countries always attract illegal workers, you simply can limit it by setting big retailations on illegal workers employers, nothing more.
Totally agree about an end to H1B visa in all circumstances, except if it is adapted to something sensible. You pest against immigrant migrant workers and ask for motivated permanents instead while you agree to take easy to fire temporary workers littered after use, as the huge amount of abuses show every day ? No, it must be changed into something more balanced, check for my proposal below.
I am totally against DV lottery. When you have diplomas, good skills, and are motivated to at least try making a new life in USA you rely on a labor visa. When you have no economical interest and no valuable skill you rely on DV for chance. Trying to change country and make one's new life is hard and many can't adapt and go back home (no issue if they fairly tried), and you need valuable skills so as to integrate by work quickly, so only seriously skilled and motivated people should be selected by INS for best success integration chances, it shouldn't rely on pure chance.

I think I am typical of most Americans. We are opposed to immigrant migrant workers (I'll live in the US as long as the economy is good but as soon as I have enough money or the economy turns bad I'm going back home). But we support the idea of hard working people from around the world coming to the US to enjoy our freedom and become permanent residents and ultimately citizens of the USA.

I totally agree, all developped countries have this problem too. But as no longer relevant visa for this ideal purpose seems to exist by now, I would rather suggest replacing the H1B with a kind of pre-GC with serious examination of labor skills and motivation by INS, after regular 3 years a GC if integration by work was successful and motivation is still there, then after regular 5 years permanent residency.

Best regards.
Frank Silbermann
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1379

"And Second, anyone who has been in Miami knows that you will struggle communicating in certain locations without some spanish."

Originally posted by Jesse Torres: Even in IT positions?


When I was looking two or three years ago I saw a number of job ads for J2EE that required fluency in Spanish. But who knows, maybe these jobs required interaction with customers or travel to South America.
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: GB vs the USA
 
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