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J2EE consulting job in NY

Sudhir Shetty
Greenhorn

Joined: Jan 04, 2005
Posts: 1

[ February 02, 2005: Message edited by: Sudhir Shetty ]
Billy Tsai
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Joined: May 23, 2003
Posts: 1304
ask them for $60K


BEA 8.1 Certified Administrator, IBM Certified Solution Developer For XML 1.1 and Related Technologies, SCJP, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCDJWS, SCJD, SCEA,
Oracle Certified Master Java EE 5 Enterprise Architect
Arjun Shastry
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Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1874
So programmer with 7 years of exp in NY earns average $60K?


MH
Mike Gershman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2004
Posts: 1272
So programmer with 7 years of exp in NY earns average $60K?

Of course not, that's why they are replacing them with H1B's.


Mike Gershman
SCJP 1.4, SCWCD in process
soniya saxena
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 18, 2004
Posts: 300
C'mon Mike, dont tell me that u think that H1B labour is any cheap as compared to a US citizen working on the same post.
Originally posted by Mike Gershman:

Of course not, that's why they are replacing them with H1B's.
soniya saxena
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 18, 2004
Posts: 300
Irrespective of ur experience, since u r a newbie in US, consulting companies will try to give u as less as possible. Once u r here, u can always switch companies and increase ur rates. As u see, u will be busy trying to jump around for better rates. Rather, if u decide to file ur green card thru this consulting company, u might tend to stick with them till the time that ur green card gets processed, which means they will continue to pay u less since they know that u will stick with them for green card. I am not sure if u call this a good career and if it is really worth it.
If u can manage to get a permanent position with a non-consulting company, that would be a better option and may be worth it, but again the first break in US is typically thru a consulting company.

Originally posted by Sudhir Shetty:
Hi,
I have a valid H1 VISA for a consulting job, the company is based in NY, they have offered me 50k for starters , is it worth going to the US , I have around 7 years experience.
TIA,
Sudhir
soniya saxena
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 18, 2004
Posts: 300
Outsourcing is cheap, H1B is not.
Originally posted by soniya saxena:
C'mon Mike, dont tell me that u think that H1B labour is any cheap as compared to a US citizen working on the same post.
Mike Gershman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2004
Posts: 1272
Outsourcing is cheap, H1B is not.

Give me a break. Low wages are the whole basis for H1B visas.

60K for a US citizen programmer in the NY area with 7 years of j2ee experience is absurd. For a consultant, that would be $30/hour or $240/day. I doubt if even Mark Herschberg, who usually disagrees with my position on H1B's, will challenge this.

There are plenty of available US programmers with 10-30 years of experience. Many have gotten Sun Java certifications but employers pretend that it will still take you at least 3 years experience to be an effective j2ee programmer (unless, of course, you are a fresh university graduate with one of those extra 20,000 H1B visas) even though it has never taken experienced programmers anywhere near that long to come up to speed in any new language. All hiring managers care about now is bargain salaries because their employers expect it.

You can't raise a family decently in NY on 60K.
[ January 05, 2005: Message edited by: Mike Gershman ]
Jay Shin
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 14, 2004
Posts: 169
they have offered me 50k for starters



Another H-1B exploiter/scammer.

Under the H-1B laws, the employer MUST pay the foreign worker at least 95% of the prevailing or average wage for the job being offered.

This is absolutely absurd because the prevailing wage for programmers with 7 years exp. is nowhere close to 50K.



I have a valid H1 VISA for a consulting job



No.

Once you take the position, you become an illegal alien.
Jay Shin
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 14, 2004
Posts: 169
Originally posted by Mike Gershman:

Low wages are the whole basis for H1B visas.



In theory, this is false. As I mentioned in the above, H-1B workers are not meant to be cheap labor replacements.

It's those H-1B exploiters who corrupted the program.
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Mike Gershman:

Give me a break. Low wages are the whole basis for H1B visas.

60K for a US citizen programmer in the NY area with 7 years of j2ee experience is absurd. For a consultant, that would be $30/hour or $240/day. I doubt if even Mark Herschberg, who usually disagrees with my position on H1B's, will challenge this.


As Jay pointed out, low wages wre not the motivation for the H1-B program. it was to cover for unfilled positions. This made sense in IT years ago, and makes sense today for fields lik nursing. Unfortunately, AFAIK, the H1-B program doesn't have a way to distinguish between fields.

As for $60k NYC, it's low but so what. I can't imagine Wall St firms won't bother doing that--they don't mind paying a good salary )(above average) to get the best people. Likewise, there will be companies on the other end of the spectrum who always think taking the cheaper guy is a win.

We see a selection bias, because we generally only hear of people asking about / taking those lower paying jobs, which locals know are underpaid.

Besides, maybe you'll get lots of stock options--the savings on toliet paper could totally tens of dollars annually. :-p

--Mark
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi Jay !

It's those H-1B exploiters who corrupted the program.

OK, I agree, but who cares if there is no retailation ? I didn't ever hear of any form of punishment for abuses, despite many obvious abuses totally against the law were publicly exposed in this forum. So as long as law is not applied, H-1B exploiters are free to do what they want.

I would like to ask a very important question derived of this matter : for an H1B appliant being over-exploited for a while may be perfectly acceptable if he is provided with a Green Card in the end, which can make his "temporary IT slavery state" worth it. So the real important point is : are H1B granted a GC after some years by US state, or do they remain H1B till the end of their 6 years then expulsed (for of course their H-1B exploiters won't ever sponsor them for stable GC status, it is their interest to keep them tied through unstable H1B status permanently) ?

Best regards.


Eric LEMAITRE
CNAM IT Engineer, MS/CS (RHCE, RHCX, SCJA, SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA, Net+)
Free Online Tutorials: http://www.free-tutorials-online.net/
Jay Ashar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2002
Posts: 208
Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
for an H1B appliant being over-exploited for a while may be perfectly acceptable if he is provided with a Green Card in the end, which can make his "temporary IT slavery state" worth it. So the real important point is : are H1B granted a GC after some years by US state, or do they remain H1B till the end of their 6 years then expulsed (for of course their H-1B exploiters won't ever sponsor them for stable GC status, it is their interest to keep them tied through unstable H1B status permanently) ?

Best regards.


H1Bs can apply for Green Card through their employers and within few years (depending on their processing speed) they can change their status.
But, why do you think H1B application being over-exploited for a while may be acceptable? That's not right, It's still against the law, they should be paid minimum prevailing wage. Something should be done to prevent the exploitation, irrespective of their GC status.


SCJP 1.4<br />SCWCD 1.3
Jay Shin
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 14, 2004
Posts: 169
OK, I agree, but who cares if there is no retailation ? I didn't ever hear of any form of punishment for abuses


In theory, illegal aliens are to be expelled from the U.S. territory.

In practice, there are way too many of them so there's nothing much that the U.S. Government can do about this.

If they start cracking down on every illegal alien, this will cause them lots of resources and money -- so this will inevitably result in a tax increase. I don't want this happen.

Help them by reporting any H-1B abusers to the U.S. Department of Justice:

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/osc/htm/contactus.htm
Jay Shin
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 14, 2004
Posts: 169

for an H1B appliant being over-exploited for a while may be perfectly acceptable if he is provided with a Green Card in the end


Yes.

Those employers are savvy enough to know how to make illegal H-1B workers to look legal "on paper".

One of the most important thing is falsifying well on income tax report because what the employer is paying to the H-1B worker is different from what is specified on H-1B petition.

For example, the employer file the H-1B petition with wage of $100,000 per year (which is legal prevailing wage). But the employer actually pays only $50,000 to the H-1B worker.



The employer can apply for Green Card any time during the H-1B period. (To be more specific, it must be filed more than a year in advance of the expiration of 6 year total in H-1B status).

Again, the illegal H-1B worker looks legal on paper, so there is no problem getting him Green Card.

Green Card process takes about 2 - 4 years depending on locations.

In most cases, those illegal H-1B workers know they are being exploited by the employer, but it is their best interest not to report or sue their employers -- not only the employer will be forced to shut down but also the H-1B employees will be expelled from the U.S. because they're illegal aliens.
Mike Gershman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2004
Posts: 1272
OK, I agree, but who cares if there is no retailation ? I didn't ever hear of any form of punishment for abuses, despite many obvious abuses totally against the law were publicly exposed in this forum. So as long as law is not applied, H-1B exploiters are free to do what they want.

It's worse than it looks. The feds need a credible complaint from someone in a position to know before investigating H1B fraud. Who is going to complain?

Is there any other visa class where the feds are legally requiredto have probable cause to investigate the application?
[ January 05, 2005: Message edited by: Mike Gershman ]
soniya saxena
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 18, 2004
Posts: 300
I didnt quote the 60k figure and I know nothing abt NY, so i dont want to make any assumptions as far as NY is concerned. But as far as CA is concerned, I have never seen any distinction in the pay range for a US citizen and an H1B worker. During the boom time, I have even found myself earning more on H1 than a US citizen, and even today, I earn at par.

I do agree that when the economy is bad, consulting companies exploit H1B workers. But as far as working at a lower wage is concerned, I have seen that US citizens have had an advantage. Cuz when unemployment was its peak and when there were 25$/hr software jobs, only GCs or citizens could do these. H1Bs could not get these because of minimum wage requirement.

Also, I see that lot of u have a great deal of venom against H1Bs. If they are being exploited, is it their fault? Think abt it, they come to the US to make a career. They have a family, kids going to school. One fine day they get laid off. Any normal human being wouldnt mind being exploited at this juncture if he gets some kind of job to survive. It aint that easy to wrap up ur life one fine day and go back.


Originally posted by Mike Gershman:

Give me a break. Low wages are the whole basis for H1B visas.

60K for a US citizen programmer in the NY area with 7 years of j2ee experience is absurd. For a consultant, that would be $30/hour or $240/day. I doubt if even Mark Herschberg, who usually disagrees with my position on H1B's, will challenge this.

There are plenty of available US programmers with 10-30 years of experience. Many have gotten Sun Java certifications but employers pretend that it will still take you at least 3 years experience to be an effective j2ee programmer (unless, of course, you are a fresh university graduate with one of those extra 20,000 H1B visas) even though it has never taken experienced programmers anywhere near that long to come up to speed in any new language. All hiring managers care about now is bargain salaries because their employers expect it.

You can't raise a family decently in NY on 60K.

[ January 05, 2005: Message edited by: Mike Gershman ]

[ January 05, 2005: Message edited by: soniya saxena ]
Arjun Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1874
Hi Soniya,
According to you,H1B are not that cheap.So in which part of USA,programmer with 7 years experience earn $60K ?
As Mark said correctly,firms don't mind people giving more salary.
{
....
the IIM-A claims that its highest salary for the year was not $82,000 (or $130,000 CTC) but $90,000, as offered by Morgan Stanley
}
Wall street salaries
soniya saxena
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 18, 2004
Posts: 300
I am not sure I understand ur question. I never made any statement to the effect that a programmer with 7 yrs experience earns 60k. When Billy asked Sudhir to ask for 60k, I think u made an incorrect assumption that a programmer with 7 yrs experience makes 60k in NY. I think Billy was just asking Sudhir to ask for a better deal and his intention may not have been to point out the pay in NY.


Originally posted by Arjun Shastry:
Hi Soniya,
According to you,H1B are not that cheap.So in which part of USA,programmer with 7 years experience earn $60K ?
As Mark said correctly,firms don't mind people giving more salary.
{
....
the IIM-A claims that its highest salary for the year was not $82,000 (or $130,000 CTC) but $90,000, as offered by Morgan Stanley
}
Wall street salaries
Arjun Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1874
USA plans to increase H1-B visas again.
{
....
Speaking at an interactive session organised by the industry body, he said the US was now thinking about increasing the number of H1B visas to Indian professionals....
He said the fact that the US was sending several senators to India next week proves that the country was serious in boosting economic cooperation with India
}
Robert O Blake said in Delhi
Prema Chakravarthy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 13, 2004
Posts: 91
It is not the starting salary that matters, here is how it works:
Once the H1B is hired into a company he won't get the same rises or promotions as the americans do. They get the lowest possible stock options possible too. They work twice the number of hours without complaining. Most H1Bs are pretty average people. So, in order to learn the ropes they put in a lot of hours. Anyway, I don't blame the persons that are being exploited either.
Arjun Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1874
Originally posted by Prema Chakravarthy:

They work twice the number of hours without complaining.

You mean to say many H1-Bs work more than 8 hours?


Most H1Bs are pretty average people.

Yet,they seem to be in demand.So can we conclude that most of the IT work(for which they are hired) can be accomplished by pretty average people(by sitting little extra hours!)?
[ January 06, 2005: Message edited by: Arjun Shastry ]
Prema Chakravarthy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 13, 2004
Posts: 91
Arjun,
Yes
and
Yes.
IMHO, most people are average (whether H1Bs or not).
JiaPei Jen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 19, 2000
Posts: 1309
What are the salary ranges for junior, mid-level, and senior Java professionals in major US cities? $60K is very low for someone with 7 years of experience in NYC. What is the reasonable pay in NYC with that many years of experience?
soniya saxena
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 18, 2004
Posts: 300
Once the H1B is hired into a company he won't get the same rises or promotions as the americans do. They get the lowest possible stock options possible too. They work twice the number of hours without complaining.
I am sorry that u were a victim of discrimination when u were on H1B.
It seems life has been pretty rough for u in the US.
I remember having read an earlier post of urs wherein u said that ur being a female was proving to be a hurdle in rising to higher positions, and I guess that was after u became a citizen. I think i had asked you to provide more details on that, but u did not care to reply.
So bottom line is - H1B or not, either way, u had some kind of problem, affecting ur career.

Most H1Bs are pretty average people. So, in order to learn the ropes they put in a lot of hours.



[ January 06, 2005: Message edited by: soniya saxena ]
[ January 06, 2005: Message edited by: soniya saxena ]
Prema Chakravarthy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 13, 2004
Posts: 91
Soniya,
I didn't realize you were trying get an answer for me for something. I never was under H1B. I have always been a US citizen. What I wrote was merely my observation of others at work place. I certainly see issues due to me being the "little indian" (even if you are an american citizen, people will think you are an indian first because of your looks) but most of the time I can rise above that. Difference is -what is taken for granted by my american white counterparts will only be given to me after I prove my value. That's ok though, I understand that life is not always fair. I have very many things to be grateful for.
Billy Tsai
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 23, 2003
Posts: 1304
aren't everything including the living costs very expensive in New York City?
thats why one needs a high salary
 
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