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I AM CRYING, TOO MANY QUALIFICATIONS & NO DAM JOB :(

Sam Robinson UK
Greenhorn

Joined: Jan 06, 2005
Posts: 8
I am so upset after achieving a Masters degree and gaining some work experience, I still cant get a job. Not even a crappy Helpdesk support position.

I.T makes me cry, sad, and has wasted my life.

I pray for a miracle.
Jay Shin
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 14, 2004
Posts: 169

I still cant get a job.
I pray for a miracle.



Make the miracle happen instead of just waiting for it.

Have you considered moving to India? I've seen the reverse immigration becoming a trend in UK, especially in IT field.
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Hi Sam,

Welcome to JavaRanch. Your display name is, unfortunately, not allowed by our naming policy. I appreciate that you are well within the spirit of the policy, and the extra information is innoculus. However, our conern is that it opens the door for less well-behaved people, e.g. "Bill Smith JavaGod", which would undermine th intention of the policy. Please remove the UK from your display name.

--Mark
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
You may well be overqualified (and thus too expensive) for the jobs you're shooting at and lacking experience for the jobs that match your qualifications.

Kinda a catch-22 situation I'm afraid, especially in a stagnant market with tons of unemployed like the entire Euro IT market at the moment.


42
K Riaz
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 08, 2005
Posts: 375
Originally posted by Jay Shin:

Have you considered moving to India?


With the greatest respect, why would any British Graduate leave the UK - the forth richest country in the world, and move to India, a poor third world country which is vastly overpopulated with poverty at its height, considering that outsourcing companies pay Indian programmers on average, around $6000/yr (about �3500)? Just a thought...
Damanjit Kaur
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 18, 2004
Posts: 346
Hi Kashif,
With the greatest respect, why would any British Graduate leave the UK - the forth richest country in the world, and move to India, a poor third world country which is vastly overpopulated with poverty at its height, considering that outsourcing companies pay Indian programmers on average, around $6000/yr (about �3500)? Just a thought...


A British Graduate living in a fourth richest country of world should never leave his country, if he is willing to sacrifice his job satisfaction spirit due to his high qualification and is willing to do any kind of job in any field within his country. He should wait for the unemployment conditions within his country to improve to find a good job matching his qualifications.

Your knowledge about India is certainly outdated. Its not at all a 3rd world poor country. Though there is still poverty but not as much as you mentioned. People who earn 3500pounds=around 2,80,000 lakhs p.a. enjoy much higher status than the one living in 4th richest country with no job.

IT Salary can certainly never be the reason for a British Graduate to not to go to India. But the changes regarding cultural, weather and food may be the biggest problem for him and ofcourse last but not the least - a general and also typical, narrow minded attitude of a person living in a developed economy is , he takes his country's developed status for granted. He refuses to accept the fact that the world is moving towards globalisation in every field. This globalistion is benefitting some economies while putting others at loss. The people on lose side should not just keep hating the benefitting (under or developing) countries rather they should open up to it and think of ways how they can benefit themselves from the changes.

No one likes to leave his place of comfort whether he lives in a richest or poorest country. But the changed circustances makes both of them to leave.
Billy Tsai
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 23, 2003
Posts: 1297
I understand ur pain and suffering, I have recently applied several junior/intermediate Java developer jobs from where I was from, I have over 1 year of IT experience and a good combination of certifications with a tertiary IT degree.And I was rejected for 3 jobs and ignored for the rests.
so its pretty bloody hopeless even if they said the economy in those two countries are in good shape with the lowest unemployment rate ever.

Maybe we should all move to India
[ January 18, 2005: Message edited by: Billy Tsai ]

BEA 8.1 Certified Administrator, IBM Certified Solution Developer For XML 1.1 and Related Technologies, SCJP, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCDJWS, SCJD, SCEA,
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Swapan Mazumdar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 23, 2003
Posts: 83
Hi Kashif,

Originally posted by Kashif R.:

...move to India, a poor third world country which is vastly overpopulated with poverty at its height, considering that outsourcing companies pay Indian programmers on average, around $6000/yr...


Would you consider yourself lucky if you work in India for Microsoft, IBM, Adobe... These companies not only offer an upward moving career but a lifestyle. Trust me they offer package and benefits which you can closely compare to the US of A or European standards.

Well with a huge population the average figure certainly undermines the true meaning of AVERAGE. My intention of writing to you is to make an attempt to motivate you to think rational and don't generalize the fact.

Good luck
soniya saxena
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 18, 2004
Posts: 300
"that outsourcing companies pay Indian programmers on average, around $6000/yr (about �3500)? "

C'mon, that isnt average. This is just a beginner's pay.
K Riaz
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 08, 2005
Posts: 375
Originally posted by Damanjit Kaur:
India is certainly outdated. Its not at all a 3rd world poor country. Though there is still poverty but not as much as you mentioned.


At my last company, some people went to a conference which was held in India. The first thing they said on return was "very nice country, but lots of poverty/begging".

Originally posted by Damanjit Kaur:
People who earn 3500pounds=around 2,80,000 lakhs p.a. enjoy much higher status than the one living in 4th richest country with no job.


Of course you will have a "higher status" if you have a job compared to someone in a rich country who does not. And a third of �3500 pays for my annual travel.

Originally posted by Swapan Mazumdar:

Would you consider yourself lucky if you work in India for Microsoft, IBM, Adobe... These companies not only offer an upward moving career but a lifestyle. Trust me they offer package and benefits which you can closely compare to the US of A or European standards.


Lucky? Yes, as they are good companies. But not until you see how much they pay someone in Europe or the US with the same skills. Let me give you an example; In London, Investment Banks pay fresh IT graduates with no experience a package of �35,000/yr. Morgan Stanley (an tier-1 american IB) were offering a graduate with one years experience in Java a package of upto �49,000/yr (yes, forty nine thousand). Also, does Accenture in India offer new recruits a �10,000 joining bonus? No? They do in London, along with a �28,500k package - this is for graduates with no experience in the first year.

So they do not offer anywhere near the packages as they do here. The future financial benefits with increases in pay would outweigh all the advantages of moving to a place such as India.

I would not recommend any British graduate moving abroad until they have paid off all student loans, as it will continue to gather interest and thus they will owe more. The average british student debt is �10,000. So moving to India on �3k (assuming that you get a job straightaway) would not help at all.
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
"Kashif R.",

Welcome to JavaRanch.

Please look carefully at official naming policy at Javaranch & reregister yourself with proper first & last name, with a space between them. Initials may be used for a first name, but not a last name. Please adhere to official naming policy & help maintain the decorum of the forum. The naming policy can be found at http://www.javaranch.com/name.jsp

--Mark
Damanjit Kaur
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 18, 2004
Posts: 346
Hi Kashif

At my last company, some people went to a conference which was held in India. The first thing they said on return was "very nice country, but lots of poverty/begging".


I also used to heard a lot of stories about other countries from my fellow colleagues like racism in U.K., Germans don't like foreigners, hate to speak english and bla bla. The main thing is that if you want to see the positive sides of any country then you need to have a broader perspective and try not to perceive things from a bird's eye view. You can't come to conclusions by following just few examples which are based on some short trip observations. These observations may certainly be based on some facts but there is the other side too, the positive one. This other side can be realised or felt only when you live in that other country for a longer time. And only then you are in a good position to compare the pros and cons of each country's environment in respect to job or whatever.

At present you are comparing the salary amount that is paid in U.K. with the one paid in India but with that you should also compare the cost of living in both these countries and also the life style and your preferences regarding it. The life style is certainly different in both these countries. There are some benefits which exists in Indian life style which you won't find in U.K. and the reverse too applies.

Its not just salary amount but other factors too that needs to be considered but for that you need to come out of your restricted and hateful attitude.
K Riaz
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 08, 2005
Posts: 375
Originally posted by Damanjit Kaur:

Germans don't like foreigners, hate to speak english and bla bla.


Not true at all. I studied with a German friend who speaks excellent english, and am 100% sure that many others would agree. It was probably an isolated incident and, as in the UK, they do not know how to integrate.

Originally posted by Damanjit Kaur:

The main thing is that if you want to see the positive sides of any country then you need to have a broader perspective and try not to perceive things from a bird's eye view.


Well, away from the gloss of Bollywood - which paints a fake picture of the country, I am pretty sure that the way I think life is like in India (and neighbouring countries) is how it really is. Even an Indian friend agreed with me when he suggested for fun that he would go back to India for work on finishing his degree. I know in some parts of India, people live good lives in beautiful areas with rich income. But they are in the minority.

Originally posted by Damanjit Kaur:

Its not just salary amount but other factors too that needs to be considered but for that you need to come out of your restricted and hateful attitude.



Hateful? Not at all. Reality? Maybe. I am sure it is a nice country for people to live in and respect many people who work very hard to earn a decent living, many who must care for large families being the sole earner. My point is that it would be a huge culture shock to ask a british graduate, who together with a masters degree would spend most of their lifetime paying back student fees in the UK on an Indian salary. I see no incentive at all. I don't blame you for replying to my posts to defend your country, in fact, I respect you for it. But you must realise that people in the UK have huge expectations, particularly graduates, and most would not look outside the UK or the US for a long term career.
[ January 18, 2005: Message edited by: Kashif R. ]
Rashmi Tambe
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 07, 2001
Posts: 418
Originally posted by Kashif R.:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Damanjit Kaur:

Germans don't like foreigners, hate to speak english and bla bla.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Not true at all. I studied with a German friend who speaks excellent english, and am 100% sure that many others would agree. It was probably an isolated incident and, as in the UK, they do not know how to integrate

[ January 18, 2005: Message edited by: Kashif R. ]


My brother's friend was severely beaten by some German students who called themselves 'Nazi' follower in Berlin. As a result, he had leave his good job there and came back to India with a mental shock and took months to recover from it!

This is just to tell you one incident in Germany. But, I wont immediately conclude that German ppl are bad ...cause every coin has 2 sides, when there is a negative side, there has to be a +ve side too. And You cannot judge a person, place or country just by looking at -ve side, moreover, if you have not visited the country!
Damanjit Kaur
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 18, 2004
Posts: 346
This is just to tell you one incident in Germany. But, I wont immediately conclude that German ppl are bad ...cause every coin has 2 sides, when there is a negative side, there has to be a +ve side too. And You cannot judge a person, place or country just by looking at -ve side, moreover, if you have not visited the country!


That is exactly what I want to convey. You can't judge anything from just one incident or stories. There is other side too and I have seen this other side which is beautiful and very positive, not just about Germans but about all other people from different nationalities. I too studied with people from Germany,Norway,France,Chinese,Russia.. and that was the most exciting experience of my life.
Vijayendra V Rao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 04, 2004
Posts: 195
Originally posted by Sam Robinson UK:
I am so upset after achieving a Masters degree and gaining some work experience, I still cant get a job.


Two things...

1. You are complaining about not being able to get a job...then how did you get that work experience?!
2. How many years of work experience do you have?


Vijayendra <br /> <br />"The harder you train in peace, the lesser you bleed in war"
Joe King
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 02, 2003
Posts: 820
Originally posted by Kashif R.:
with a masters degree would spend most of their lifetime paying back student fees in the UK on an Indian salary.


This may not be an issue. I think the student loans are only paid back by people working in the UK, as the loan repayments are paid through the income tax system. I think this means that a person working abroad does not need to make loan repayments.

There is another problem with a UK graduate moving to India (or another similar country) - the cost of returning. Many graduates do not have much savings (most have the opposite - huge debts), so the hypothetical UK graduate working in India will only be able to make savings from the money earned in India. While this may add up to a good amount by Indian purchasing power standards, it is likely to be quite low by UK purchasing power standards. This means that money that has taken years to save up while living in India, which could buy a nice house India, would not be able to buy a house in the UK. This doesn't matter if the graduate does not wish to return to the UK, or is happy to save up for a long time, but if he/she wants to move to India for a couple of years and move back again, he/she may find it difficult.
vasu maj
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 12, 2001
Posts: 395
1. You can save a lot more in Indna than you would do with same kind of job in India.

2. With the kind of salaray that the big companies pay you in India you become part of the richest group of people in the country and live an affluent life.

3. You will be treated as a VIP in India. Indians are known to treat foreigners with respect and kindness anywhere in the country.

4. India is huge and has so many shades to it that you will feel as if you were in different countries when you travel say for example from South to North or West while still being in the same country.


Having said that, I don't think if you put some effort into geting a job the market is not so bad for you to not get a job.


Good luck,

vasu


What a wonderful world!
Martyn Oswin
Greenhorn

Joined: Apr 28, 2003
Posts: 1
Where abouts do you live? If you live in a city with lots of opportunities and you beleive that you have the requisite skill set then it has to be either your CV or your interview technique.

If it helps, you can mail me your CV and I'll give you an honest assessment of what I think. Sure it's subjective but then the whole recruitment process is subjective.

Whatever you do, don't aim too low. People just won't hire people who are over qualified as they fear that they will leave as soon as something better comes along, also, what is the point of getting a Masters and doing a job for which you don't need a Masters? It makes you seem desperate, something employers pick up on.

Whilst your are waiting teach yourself new skills, do some 'free' work for a local charity, offer yourself out to local companies for a 3 month trail period, sure there might not be anything in it for you but there might be at the end of it if you impress. What does it cost them?

Keep trying, you will get there.

Ossie
Linda Pan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 24, 2001
Posts: 96
Originally posted by Martyn Oswin:

Whatever you do, don't aim too low. People just won't hire people who are over qualified as they fear that they will leave as soon as something better comes along, also, what is the point of getting a Masters and doing a job for which you don't need a Masters? It makes you seem desperate, something employers pick up on.

Ossie


I ask myself this question, my job doesn't require a masters. I would hate for future employers to think I'm overqualified. But on the other hand, I'm thinking I may work in project management one day, wouldn't a masters beat other potential candidates? I feel for those who are still looking.

BTW, feel free to recommend any good masters program for project management.
[ February 15, 2005: Message edited by: Linda Pan ]
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi !

I suggest you take contact with other UK people linked to France in anyway, for there is a real great need for Java people here. France is just across channel (1 hour trip with Euro-Star), you even don't need to speak any french as most IT people speak english. As many UK people have settled in north western France (mainly normandy) this could be thinked about.

Best regards.


Eric LEMAITRE
CNAM IT Engineer, MS/CS (RHCE, RHCX, SCJA, SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA, Net+)
Free Online Tutorials: http://www.free-tutorials-online.net/
Ben Souther
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 11, 2004
Posts: 13410

Originally posted by Swapan Mazumdar:
Hi Kashif,



Would you consider yourself lucky if you work in India for Microsoft, IBM, Adobe... These companies not only offer an upward moving career but a lifestyle. Trust me they offer package and benefits which you can closely compare to the US of A or European standards.

Well with a huge population the average figure certainly undermines the true meaning of AVERAGE. My intention of writing to you is to make an attempt to motivate you to think rational and don't generalize the fact.

Good luck


If you're young and unencumbered, this could be considered and extension of your education. I wonder what a large US outsourcing firm (like Keane) would pay for a British born developer, with a masters degree, who has just returned from working as a developer in India for the last year.


Java API J2EE API Servlet Spec JSP Spec How to ask a question... Simple Servlet Examples jsonf
Carl Wilburn
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 17, 2004
Posts: 9
Interesting discussion about the pro's and con's of moving to India for a job, but, back to Sam's situation. I'm in the U.S. and probably share some of Sam's concerns; looking for a job anyway. My experience in the U.S. is that no matter what glowing things they say about the economy, the job market is really not that good; too many companies downsizing (oops, I meant right sizing), too many jobs being off-shored (whether this is a good thing or bad is a complicated topic), and companies are being fairly conservative about hiring.

Sam, you sound very frustrated. I can't say I blame you. Are you sure you want a career in I.T.? If you do, you need to be prepared to sell yourself in interviews. You need to be positive and not let your frustration knock you out of an opportunity. Do whatever you can to prepare yourself for interviews; know as much as you can about the company; if you've got some cooperative friends, do some mock interviews (they should interview you as if they were looking for an employee); contact acquaintances, join local user groups (Weblogic, Java user groups, or relevant industry groups), network. Stay current. Technology changes.

In any case, good luck with finding a job.


Live, learn and do!
john fuhr
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 27, 2001
Posts: 16
Originally posted by Jay Shin:

reverse immigration becoming a trend.....


now THAT is an idea... the problem is when a European or Yankee has to go home.
i must say that i can feel for Sam. my only solution was to get to bigger (US) markets, like Chicago and New York.
another thing - network - talk to people
noel angel
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 27, 2002
Posts: 75
Try Ireland, it is a big outsourcing country and almost everyone has a job.
Who wants one
 
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