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Jobs in US

Angela D'souza
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 16, 2002
Posts: 469
Nowaday lot's of outsource going on to India.

Do you think so after outsourcingm, job market in programming will be stable in USA? If not, what other areas in computer will have stable market in USA?

Thank you,
Angela
Arjunkumar Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 986
According to Norman Matloff,not more than 5% of Software jobs will move outside USA.So 95% of the software jobs are there.


Namma Suvarna Karnataka
Mike Gershman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2004
Posts: 1272
Arjunkumar wrote:
According to Norman Matloff,not more than 5% of Software jobs will move outside USA. So 95% of the software jobs are there.


I found that Prof. Matloff is quite the prolific writer.

Could you please provide a citation or link to the 5%/95% quote?

Thanks


Mike Gershman
SCJP 1.4, SCWCD in process
Arjunkumar Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 986
Its here. Click on link "Click here for that Summary document".Page 6.
Angela D'souza
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 16, 2002
Posts: 469
Thank you for your information.

I have other question: What are the other hot job areas besides programmers in computer industry?

Thank you,
Angela
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi !

I have other question: What are the other hot job areas besides programmers in computer industry?

Without doubts Architecture and Network security at least.

Best regards.


Eric LEMAITRE
CNAM IT Engineer, MS/CS (RHCE, RHCX, SCJA, SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA, Net+)
Free Online Tutorials: http://www.free-tutorials-online.net/
Jane Somerfield
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 20, 2002
Posts: 193
It is about 30% goes to India. But if you count one US programmer
equals to 5 Indian programmers, it will become 60% or more. Is it really
true that one US programmer equals five Indian programmers? The
answer is NO. Indian companies added so many head counts so that
their low rate can be recovered by the number of people, and
these 5 programmers work for five US companies at same time. And
now you know the rest of the story. We saw so many failed off shore
projects that need to be re-written by US programmers. Of course,
someone will make money from it, the executives in both US and Indian
companies. Have you heard about "kick back" in off shoring...
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi !

Have you heard about "kick back" in off shoring...

I heard seriously from one of participant that one outsourcing project in France turned so bad all indian programmers had to be brought in France to be seriously managed. The whole operation cost in final about 5 times what was expected, so about three times what it would have cost for using local developpers. I won't give any name, famous french bank I could work in one day...
Before wondering about some kind of frensh bashing or despise, I would like people to wonder whether they can't find even more ridiculous fate near them in their own country, especially US. I would be very surprised if no one could find even dumber, but as Angela above remarked huge profits were made anyway despite the failures...

All sensible and seemingly realistic conclusions I heard at final are that indians involved in offshore can be really good when properly led and managed, but an horrible mess when not. The british in particular would be the best to undertake remote offshore projects with them, for as former colonial country they know them well. In particular all projects with only lower cost in mind without any redundant remote checking would be doomed by advance.
Comments welcome of course, simple hopefully realistic info gathering. Will be better after some feedback, mainly from indians themselves.

Best regards.
Arjunkumar Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 986
{
The british in particular would be the best to undertake remote offshore projects with them, for as former colonial country they know them well
}
But those Britishers must be now in their early/late 80s,right?
In last two years after offshoring been in top gear,many terms have been coined like "businnes analyst","application analyst","senior associate","consultant".We need to distinguish between types of offshoring and type of work done.
1)Technical Support for service provider companies like Dell,AOL,Microsoft etc
2)Software Development,legacy support for USA clients done by Indian IT companies like Wipro,Infosys,Satyam,Tata
3)Technical support,development by American IT companies like Oracle,Sun.
4)Software/hardware/scientific research and development carried out by some companies like TI,Intel,GE
5)Software development/support done Midsize/small American and Indian IT companies.

I don't know exact employee count of companies in 1 and 3 but its India head count may not be more than 10% of its worldwide force.The lasttime I read Microsoft here has total 500 employees.Its Redmond office will be definitely having 10 times more than this.Similar is the case for Adobe India.It has not more than 200 people.
Companies in type 4 are there but again workforce may not be more than 5% of its total wordwide .
Many American IT companies in type 3,who have opened the shops here in last ten years,follow "follow the sun" formula or whatever!
Do these companies expose how much have they benifitted/lost because of offshoring?
Majority of companies offshoring their work(software application development/support) ,follow in type 2 and type 5.
So success or failure of offshoring will mainly depend on this.Companies in type2 have good profit track record of decade or more to show to the world that offshoring succeeds.Infosys for example ,with its giant 35,000 headcount is less likely to fell atleast in near future IMO.There could be some failures in type 2 but definitely not disastrous.Also companies in type 2 have concentrated in other countries and India too!!.
Managing the project remotely has been tricky and risky.So companies send few people to do initial work to "onsite".Success or failure depends understanding between client,people working in offshore office and people on "onsite". IMO to conclude:
Type 1:has gotten success but may not get huge savings in future(due to economical reasons).
Type 2:Have got success and don't see problem in near future of 2 years.
Type 3:Haven't seen actual figures showing how much have they benifitted.So can't say.But AFAI remember they haven't done cost cutting here.
Type 4:Have got descent success but definitely not so huge that they will transfer all their work here.Companies in type 4,hire very few people.
Type 5 ifficult to predict.
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Jane Somerfield:
It is about 30% goes to India.... Indian companies added so many head counts so that their low rate can be recovered by the number of people, and
these 5 programmers work for five US companies at same time.


Do you have any reputable sources for this that you can reference or is this just your opinion?

--Mark
Angela D'souza
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 16, 2002
Posts: 469
Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
Hi !

Without doubts Architecture and Network security at least.

Best regards.


How much pay they can get? Can they do evening or night or work from home if company agrees. Is there any specific cerfication for that? Do they(Architecture) have do any programming?

Thank you,
Angela
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
Originally posted by Angela D'souza:
Thank you for your information.

I have other question: What are the other hot job areas besides programmers in computer industry?

Thank you,
Angela


The only jobs that are safe from offshoring are those that require the physical presence of the employee at the customer site.
That means classroom instruction and hardware installation.


42
Arjunkumar Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 986
{
The only jobs that are safe from offshoring are those that require the physical presence of the employee at the customer site.
}
If that is the case,you should have seen zero jobs involving software on www.dice.com in USA But that is not the case.I searched for Java for various states and I get the following number of jobs:
New Hampshire: 22
Nebraska: 62
Massachusetts: 337
Florida: 301
Delaware: 77
Colorado:220
I searched for jobs involving c++
Total jobs in USA(posted on dice): 5733

I searched for some jobs which involve little more complexity :cryptography
Total number of jobs: 104
Are all these jobs fake? or all are looking for H1Bs?
Eric Lemaitre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 538

Hi Angela !

How much pay they can get? Can they do evening or night or work from home if company agrees. Is there any specific cerfication for that? Do they(Architecture) have do any programming?

Pay is good (kind of 80 K$), you will find many hints on monster.com for example.

You have some security certs, mainly CISCO and CompTIA : CCSP (Cisco Certified Security Professional, http://www.ciscopress.com/markets/detail.asp?st=44730), CompTIA Security+ (http://www.comptia.com/certification/security/default.aspx).

Beware, networks is another job you will have to learn, it takes about 3 years of practice to arrive to decent level, with all the basics of another job to learn.

Architecture is Sun's SCEA cert, you will find many links in Javaranch.
Please note that a another promising future job implied by architecture is SOA (Service Oriented Architecture), which asks few technical efforts to setup WebServices but huge business efforts to adapt business model to WebServices. You need to learn a business of course (telecoms, financial, medical, ...).

These jobs won't be outsourced because they make close contact mandatory with customers.

Best regards.
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
Originally posted by Arjunkumar Shastry:

Are all these jobs fake? or all are looking for H1Bs?


A bit of both. Remember companies have to show they can't get locals for the job before they can apply for an H1b (or other foreign worker) instead...
And there's a lot of fake job openings out there. Both joblisting websites and recruitment agencies are guilty of this. They post non-existent jobs in order to make their portfolios seem larger than they really are in an attempt to attract more customers (both companies and job seekers).
Tim Holloway
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jun 25, 2001
Posts: 15964
    
  19

Originally posted by Arjunkumar Shastry:
{
The only jobs that are safe from offshoring are those that require the physical presence of the employee at the customer site.

Are all these jobs fake? or all are looking for H1Bs?


I think I know that quote from somewhere...

"Unsafe" is not the same thing as "already gone". It's not like you go to bed one night and the next morning everything's migrated somewhere else. Jobs move on a case-by-case basis depending on how comfortable management feels in offshoring them. Some jobs move back, though before reading too much into that, consider that the tide doesn't generally rush in or out in one big wave either.

It's still years too soon to tell what the real impact will be - the process is a complex one. Consider the wage inflation in Bangalore over the last year, for example.


Customer surveys are for companies who didn't pay proper attention to begin with.
Jesse Torres
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
Some said in the early 80s, I was too young to remember, that manufacturing jobs would cease to exist in the U.S within a decade or so. The fact of the matter is that today manufacturing jobs still exist in U.S. The manufacturing job numbers may not be as numerous as in the past; nevertheless, people are still employed in manufacturing positions in the U.S.

Maybe the same can be said for Software Development. Some still claim doomsday for Software Development positions in U.S, while others claim a reversal in U.S offshoring practices. What is the truth? I don�t know. I think that only time will tell.
Angela D'souza
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 16, 2002
Posts: 469
Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
Hi Angela !

You have some security certs, mainly CISCO and CompTIA : CCSP (Cisco Certified Security Professional, http://www.ciscopress.com/markets/detail.asp?st=44730), CompTIA Security+ (http://www.comptia.com/certification/security/default.aspx).

Architecture is Sun's SCEA cert, you will find many links in Javaranch.
Please note that a another promising future job implied by architecture is SOA (Service Oriented Architecture), which asks few technical efforts to setup WebServices but huge business efforts to adapt business model to WebServices. You need to learn a business of course (telecoms, financial, medical, ...).

These jobs won't be outsourced because they make close contact mandatory with customers.

Best regards.

Is it easy to get these above jobs(Network Security + Architecture +QA jobs) during evening or night or from home?

Also how much QA people make? I don't think so QA will be outsourcing either.

Thank you,
Angela
Jay Ashar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2002
Posts: 208
Originally posted by Angela D'souza:


Also how much QA people make? I don't think so QA will be outsourcing either.

Thank you,
Angela


Place where I work, QA is the only team which has been outsourced to India. We develop/fix bugs during the day time, QA happens in India, night in US and next morning when we come to work we have a status on code we developed and bugs we fixed.


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